newb supercharger questions

Skids

Member
I've been learning a bit about boost technology over the past few days and I've been thinking that a lot of the problems which turbos must overcome can be avoided by using a supercharger.

For example, one problem is the build up of goop in the exhaust turbine combined with the fouling of the bearings. I realize that with proper cool down, etc. this problem can be minimized, but a supercharger wouldn't have to deal with this at all! Another problem is the heating of the intake air as it passes through the turbo. Again, this is largely solved by the addition of an intercooler, but a supercharger wouldn't have this problem to begin with, meaning an intercooler isn't necessary thereby making the setup cheaper and easier to package in the engine compartment. Or, if you do include an intercooler, it would be much more effective since the incoming air is that much cooler to begin with. On a side note, do they make intercoolers that are misted with water? That would be pretty sweet :)

I was also thinking that using a supercharger might allow you to avoid replacing the manifold. Since the intake tube and exhaust tube don't need to converge to one spot like they do with a turbo setup, I would imagine you could simply cut out a section of the intake tube just after the air filter, drop the supercharger in and call it done. Of course this makes things difficult if you want to power the supercharger off an engine belt, but what if the supercharger were run off an electric motor? I don't know if such things exist, but even if they didn't it should be relatively easy to convert one to electric power.

Another neat thing about an electric supercharger would be that you could turn it on and off from inside the cabin. For example, for daily driving where gas milage is important, you can disable the supercharger. You could also have a little knob that allows you to adjust the boost. And if you're into drag racing, you could be sitting at the starting line idling with your supercharger blowing at 6psi giving you full boost right off the line.

As far as losses go, the electric motor would use some electricity which would need to be generated by your engine, but even a 1/4 hp motor is pretty darn big as far as motors go... which is peanuts compared to 150+ hp that the engine's producing. And even turbos have some losses since the engine must work to pump the exhaust gasses through the turbine.

So to sum up, the way I see it, an electric supercharger would be cheaper (no manifold or intercooler necessary), easier to install (again, no manifold or intercooler necessary), require less maintenance (no cooldown, no coking), give you more adjustability in your setup (you can adjust the boost from within the cabin with the turn of a knob or even turn it off for better gas mileage), and would have only slightly more losses than a turbocharger (if any).

Seeing as how I know nothing at all about boost, I'm sure I've made lots of mistakes in my logic. What are your thoughts? All of you folks out there who know what you're talking about, try not to flame me too much, I'm just a newb asking questions :)
 
you gotta love this guys last statement. its like a soccer team holding there nuts just before a penalty kick there trying to block.
listen man,
there are pros and cons for both turbo chargers and superchargers.
thruout the years i have come to the conclusion that a turbo setup is far superior to that of a supercharger.
some may disagree but the rush i get from boosting and controlling how much boost with a flick of the switch , and not a pulley change is well worth it.
without going into too much detail on operational theory for both devises please go to amazo.com and look for a book named, "supercharging,turbocharging abd nitrous oxide performance handbook"
it will give you a great base on how these systems work so we can have a logical conversation on the fundamentals and which set up is better for you.
on a side note, any time you are compressing the intake charge to an engine you will have increased temps over ambient so you will need an intercooler for both:D
 
Skids said:
On a side note, do they make intercoolers that are misted with water? That would be pretty sweet :)

i can tell you right now, the EVO VIII has a water sprayed intercooler
 
Skids said:
I've been learning a bit about boost technology over the past few days and I've been thinking that a lot of the problems which turbos must overcome can be avoided by using a supercharger.

For example, one problem is the build up of goop in the exhaust turbine combined with the fouling of the bearings. I realize that with proper cool down, etc. this problem can be minimized, but a supercharger wouldn't have to deal with this at all! Another problem is the heating of the intake air as it passes through the turbo. Again, this is largely solved by the addition of an intercooler, but a supercharger wouldn't have this problem to begin with, meaning an intercooler isn't necessary thereby making the setup cheaper and easier to package in the engine compartment. Or, if you do include an intercooler, it would be much more effective since the incoming air is that much cooler to begin with. On a side note, do they make intercoolers that are misted with water? That would be pretty sweet :)

I was also thinking that using a supercharger might allow you to avoid replacing the manifold. Since the intake tube and exhaust tube don't need to converge to one spot like they do with a turbo setup, I would imagine you could simply cut out a section of the intake tube just after the air filter, drop the supercharger in and call it done. Of course this makes things difficult if you want to power the supercharger off an engine belt, but what if the supercharger were run off an electric motor? I don't know if such things exist, but even if they didn't it should be relatively easy to convert one to electric power.

Another neat thing about an electric supercharger would be that you could turn it on and off from inside the cabin. For example, for daily driving where gas milage is important, you can disable the supercharger. You could also have a little knob that allows you to adjust the boost. And if you're into drag racing, you could be sitting at the starting line idling with your supercharger blowing at 6psi giving you full boost right off the line.

As far as losses go, the electric motor would use some electricity which would need to be generated by your engine, but even a 1/4 hp motor is pretty darn big as far as motors go... which is peanuts compared to 150+ hp that the engine's producing. And even turbos have some losses since the engine must work to pump the exhaust gasses through the turbine.

So to sum up, the way I see it, an electric supercharger would be cheaper (no manifold or intercooler necessary), easier to install (again, no manifold or intercooler necessary), require less maintenance (no cooldown, no coking), give you more adjustability in your setup (you can adjust the boost from within the cabin with the turn of a knob or even turn it off for better gas mileage), and would have only slightly more losses than a turbocharger (if any).

Seeing as how I know nothing at all about boost, I'm sure I've made lots of mistakes in my logic. What are your thoughts? All of you folks out there who know what you're talking about, try not to flame me too much, I'm just a newb asking questions :)


(lol) dood please dont tell me you bought an electirc "supercharger" those things are jokes, they are not a constant for horsepower, you gotta turn it on at WOT. They will not give you much, if any whp gains. It is just a waste of money. Im just tellin ya to save your money and buy a real turbo or supercharger for your ride. Always remember, you get what you pay for. :D
 
By no means is this meant as a flame!

But I got three words for 'ya........
WHAT THE ****?
:wtf:
 
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you gotta love this guys last statement. its like a soccer team holding there nuts just before a penalty kick there trying to block.

Nice analogy :) You gotta have a pretty thick skin to post on this board sometimes!

Thanks for the opinions guys.
 
Skids said:


Nice analogy :) You gotta have a pretty thick skin to post on this board sometimes!

Thanks for the opinions guys.

You think this board is bad, you should go to the other board. We try to keep a warm fuzzy around here. Boostisgood, I think Skids was talking about adding a powerfull electric motor to power a supercharger instead of being driven by the engine.
 
In a perfect world maybe.

Look at it this way, as far as an electrical "supercharger" goes. Does it really make sense to start with mechanical energy (engine running), turn it into electrical energy (alternator), then back into mechanical energy (to run the supercharger)? If you could make an alternator and an electric motor that were 100% efficent that would be feasable. Belt-driven is definately more efficent, although it does leach power aff the motor.
 
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Agreed. An supercharger spun by an electric motor would be less efficient than one spun directly off the engine via a belt. However, even the cheapest of motors are about 90% efficient at converting electrical energy to mechanical energy, so the difference between the two would be small. Especially since we're talking about 90% efficiency applied to a .25 hp motor. So now the .25 hp motor draws .27 hp from the engine. If you include the inefficiencies of the alternator, perhaps that goes up to .3 hp, for a total loss of .05 hp over using a belt drive. I was suggesting that the benefits of using an electric motor (freedom of placement, ability to switch it on and off, ability to adjust boost level independent of engine speed) would outweigh this small added engine load.

I don't know. All performance benefits aside, saying that you have a TURBO just sounds so much sexier than saying you have a supercharger... :D
 
Skids said:
Agreed. An supercharger spun by an electric motor would be less efficient than one spun directly off the engine via a belt. However, even the cheapest of motors are about 90% efficient at converting electrical energy to mechanical energy, so the difference between the two would be small. Especially since we're talking about 90% efficiency applied to a .25 hp motor. So now the .25 hp motor draws .27 hp from the engine. If you include the inefficiencies of the alternator, perhaps that goes up to .3 hp, for a total loss of .05 hp over using a belt drive. I was suggesting that the benefits of using an electric motor (freedom of placement, ability to switch it on and off, ability to adjust boost level independent of engine speed) would outweigh this small added engine load.

it not that easy bud;)
 
FIrst off, it would take approximately 6-9 HP to turn a supercharger that would produce about 6 psi on our motors. That's a pretty damn big electric motor.
 
How would you power a 6-9hp electric motor off a standard 12v automotive electrical system. You would have to do a lot more then install this supercharger set up. You would have to enlarge the altnator, and beef up the system. I think after all said and done it wouldn't be as effective as a turbo set up that strictly runs off engine waste (exhaust). A Jackson Racing belt driven supercharger running @ 6psi, you loose about 3 hp at the wheels. Not bad for producing 50hp. I just don't think it would be worth it! ;)
 
RAAZ227 said:
How would you power a 6-9hp electric motor off a standard 12v automotive electrical system. You would have to do a lot more then install this supercharger set up. You would have to enlarge the altnator, and beef up the system. I think after all said and done it wouldn't be as effective as a turbo set up that strictly runs off engine waste (exhaust). A Jackson Racing belt driven supercharger running @ 6psi, you loose about 3 hp at the wheels. Not bad for producing 50hp. I just don't think it would be worth it! ;)
raz more like at the FLYWHEEL ;)
 
it would take approximately 6-9 HP to turn a supercharger that would produce about 6 psi on our motors. That's a pretty damn big electric motor.

Wow! Really? I didn't realize it required that much power! I've handled a 5hp electric motor before, and it weighed 80 lbs! I guess I'm a little skeptical that it takes this much power to blow some air down a 3" tube. My lawnmower is 5 hp, and I have to imagine that hooking my lawnmower engine up to a fan could push WAY more than 6 psi. Of course, I don't have any evidence to back up my assertion of .25 hp other than intuition, so I don't doubt that this could be way off. Could you perhaps direct me to some documentation that discusses this, or provide an explanation why you believe it requires this much power?
 
Skids said:


Wow! Really? I didn't realize it required that much power! I've handled a 5hp electric motor before, and it weighed 80 lbs! I guess I'm a little skeptical that it takes this much power to blow some air down a 3" tube. My lawnmower is 5 hp, and I have to imagine that hooking my lawnmower engine up to a fan could push WAY more than 6 psi. Of course, I don't have any evidence to back up my assertion of .25 hp other than intuition, so I don't doubt that this could be way off. Could you perhaps direct me to some documentation that discusses this, or provide an explanation why you believe it requires this much power?

Sounds like your trying to create an electric supercharger. :D
 
Yeah, that's what I was goin for. But looking back on the replies to this thread, it looks like there's some sort of negative stereotype attached to "electric superchargers". If it's true that you need 5-9 hp to spin a FI setup (which I'm still not convinced you do) then I would see how an electric setup would have serious problems. But aside from this, I don't understand why everyone turned and snickered when I mentioned spinning a supercharger with an electric motor. It's as if there's some sort of inside joke about this idea that I'm not privy to. :(

So far, everyone's said "no, it won't work", but nobody has offered any reason's why... with the exception of Traveler (but no offense, I'm not going to believe you yet until I can find some proof ;) ).
 
First off, there is a LOT of resistance to compressing air into a space that is already full. Think about boost for a minute. What does 6 psi of boost mean? It means that you are stacking up air in the manifold behind closed valves. Making power is all about air volume and moving it in and out of the motor.

If you take a stock motor and put a supercharger on it that makes 6 psi of manifold pressure at full throttle, it will probably make around 160HP at the wheels. Take that same motor, port the cylinder head, put a header on it, enlarge the exhaust and it will probably only make 4 psi with the same blower pulley but it will make around 175-180HP at the wheels. How is that possible? Because by removing restrictions to flow you are getting more air into the engine and it's not stacking up behind the intake valves. If you enlarge the blower pulley on that motor to get back to 6 psi again, you'll probably see around 200HP at the wheels.

A typical Eaton supercharger for our motor size (either an M45 or M62) will use around 8-9HP at 6 psi and max RPM. They use about .25HP just at cruise with no load on them. The M45 is running at it's most efficient at around 6 psi for our engine size. Much more than that and it starts to heat the air too much to be a good match. The M62 is a good match for more power since it's best efficiency would move enough air to still be efficient at 10 psi on our motors. The numbers refer to the displacement of the blower.

I'm still working out some details for mine but I think I'm going to get it together this summer. I'm going to go ahead and use my M62 as a core (it's a decent used one) and get a rebuilt unit. Then I'm going to build an intake and a drive setup. I'm going to probably use an FMU initially and 5.5-6 psi max. If it looks good, I'll step up to an extra injector system and 7-8 psi. I may experiment with water injection and 9 psi in the future.
 
Traveler said:
First off, there is a LOT of resistance to compressing air into a space that is already full. Think about boost for a minute. What does 6 psi of boost mean? It means that you are stacking up air in the manifold behind closed valves. Making power is all about air volume and moving it in and out of the motor.

If you take a stock motor and put a supercharger on it that makes 6 psi of manifold pressure at full throttle, it will probably make around 160HP at the wheels. Take that same motor, port the cylinder head, put a header on it, enlarge the exhaust and it will probably only make 4 psi with the same blower pulley but it will make around 175-180HP at the wheels. How is that possible? Because by removing restrictions to flow you are getting more air into the engine and it's not stacking up behind the intake valves. If you enlarge the blower pulley on that motor to get back to 6 psi again, you'll probably see around 200HP at the wheels.
aaahhhh volumetric efficiency. its a buetiful thing once harnessed.
its not how much you can force in , its how much you can combust.
its all about how the larger volume of air is processed thru the engine.the more an engine can induce and process this additional air flow on its own the more power you will make at the same residual (boost ) pressure you are looking to achieve.
another great post by traveler!!:D
 
First off, there is a LOT of resistance to compressing air into a space that is already full. Think about boost for a minute. What does 6 psi of boost mean? It means that you are stacking up air in the manifold behind closed valves. Making power is all about air volume and moving it in and out of the motor.

This makes sense to me. But saying that there is a "lot" of resistance doesn't justify your claim of 6-9 hp. Why not 20 hp? Why not 50 hp? I know that you probably have lots of practical experience with this stuff, and so you can probably tell me that it takes 6-9 hp because you've done it before and measured the hp loss, but I don't have the experience you do, and I need to have it shown to me. So I showed it to myself.

It turns out that you are right! And here's why:

We have a 2.0 L engine. Assume it's running at 4000 rpm. That means we're pumping 8000 L of air per minute. This converts to .13 m^3 of air per second. Knowing that work is the integral of force with respect to distance, we can calculate the work required to compress a certain volume of air. Assuming we're compressing the air from 14 psi to 20 psi (6 psi of boost) this works out to 36kJ required to compress 1 cubic meter of air to 20 psi. Since we need to compress .13 cubic meters per second, this therefore requires 4.8 kW of power... or 6.4 hp. Add in some frictional and pumping losses and this could easily go up to 7 hp or more.

Its funny how the stuff they show you in school turns out to be useful every once in a while...

Now I believe you Traveler! Thanks for putting up with my questions guys. Note to self: electric supercharges are a BAD idea. ;)
 
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