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Thread: Flat tire

  1. #46
    Work in Progress sm1ke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shadonoz View Post
    However, it's bad advice for ALL drivers, regardless of skill.

    The primary purpose of the tires is to maintain traction. In order to maintain control, it is more important for the front tires to maintain traction because they steer.

    The intent is to PREVENT the loss of traction in the first place. Any talk of what to do once traction is broken is secondary and a distraction.
    First off, this exchange is veering off topic. With regard to my thoughts on the OP and concerns with a new tire being paired with the other tires that have over 13k on them, refer to post #37. In the scenarios that yrwei52, shadonoz and I are discussing, such a minor difference in wear would not apply.


    I would argue that your advice is bad for all drivers.

    When it comes to steering, you're right, the front tires are the most important because they are the limiting factor. But if the front tires have more grip than the rear tires, you are much more likely to experience oversteer. This is because you're driving the car/taking corners based on the cornering ability/traction available from the front tires, without taking the reduced traction from the worn rear tires into account.

    With the worn tires up front, you don't even worry about the rears, and because you'll be limited to the traction/cornering ability of the front tires, the only time you'd lose traction would be due to understeering. Thus you are much less likely to lose control of the car, as you are more mindful of the limiting factor (front tires). This fits in perfectly with the intent to prevent the loss of traction in the first place.

    To illustrate further:


    Example 1: New tires on the front.
    You've just entered the on-ramp. As you accelerate through the turn to merge, the back tires kick out. You lay off the throttle and countersteer to correct until your rear tires regain traction.

    Example 2: New tires on the rear.
    You've just entered the on-ramp. As you accelerate through the turn to merge, the front tires start to lose grip and you notice a bit of understeer. You lay off the throttle and the car corrects itself as the front tires regain traction. No countersteering required.

    The point of this is to show just how much easier it is to regain traction in the second example. If you lose traction to oversteer, it happens very quickly and you don't have a lot of time to react. If you lose traction to understeer, the loss in traction is gradual and you have much more of an opportunity to correct it by simply easing off the throttle.

    As I mentioned earlier, oversteer is harder to correct than understeer. Thus if you have to experience one or the other, understeer is more desirable for two reasons: it is easier to correct, and when it happens it's usually quite minor unless you continue to accelerate.

    You may personally feel that you can manage oversteer much better than most, but since we are talking about advice for all drivers regardless of skill, I would urge you to remain as objective as possible for the sake of argument.
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  2. #47
    Work in Progress sm1ke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pitter View Post
    Has anyone here suffered drive train damage from using tires of unequal height in emergency or other situation?
    I have seen reports of people on other forums who reported varying levels of drivetrain damage, but this was only when they used larger diameter tires in the front or the rear for an extended period of time (ie. putting larger diameter wheels on the rears to achieve a staggered look/fitment). I've never heard of any issues arising from emergency or temporary situations.
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  3. #48
    Structural Member shadonoz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sm1ke View Post
    First off, this exchange is veering off topic. With regard to my thoughts on the OP and concerns with a new tire being paired with the other tires that have over 13k on them, refer to post #37. In the scenarios that yrwei52, shadonoz and I are discussing, such a minor difference in wear would not apply...
    As I mentioned earlier, oversteer is harder to correct than understeer. Thus if you have to experience one or the other, understeer is more desirable for two reasons: it is easier to correct, and when it happens it's usually quite minor unless you continue to accelerate.
    You are indeed veering off topic. Remember, we were talking about loss of control due to hydroplaning. I contend that avoiding loss of traction is paramount at all times.

    You're talking about reacting to a driving problem. I'm talking about preventing it.

    If someone's tires, front or rear, break loose at any time, they're driving too fast for road conditions, equipment conditions, or skill. Learn how to drive and/or improve your judgment.

    If the tires break loose, know how to correct. Learn how to drive.

    If the tires break loose because they don't have enough tread, get new tires or get off the road.

    But the tires with the best traction should always be on the front as the best way to prevent the loss of traction.

  4. #49
    Work in Progress sm1ke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shadonoz View Post
    You are indeed veering off topic. Remember, we were talking about loss of control due to hydroplaning. ?????? I contend that avoiding loss of traction is paramount at all times. Of course it is, no disagreement there.

    You're talking about reacting to a driving problem. I'm talking about preventing it. No you're not. You're saying that the tires with the best traction should be on the front wheels. If the rear tires have less traction, the car is more likely to break loose in the rear.

    If someone's tires, front or rear, break loose at any time, they're driving too fast for road conditions, equipment conditions, or skill. Learn how to drive and/or improve your judgment. Agreed.

    If the tires break loose, know how to correct. Learn how to drive. Agreed.

    If the tires break loose because they don't have enough tread, get new tires or get off the road. Obviously.

    But the tires with the best traction should always be on the front as the best way to prevent the loss of traction. Wrong (IMO). See below.
    When it comes to steering, you're right, the front tires are the most important because they are the limiting factor. But if the front tires have more grip than the rear tires, you are much more likely to experience oversteer. This is because you're driving the car/taking corners based on the cornering ability/traction available from the front tires, without taking the reduced traction from the worn rear tires into account.
    I never made any mention of hydroplaning.. I have tried to remain on topic since the only thing I was trying to explain was why tire shops and manufacturers recommend putting newer tires on the rear. You were the one who started this tangent with post #19.

    What I am saying is that if you have a set of 4 evenly worn tires, and you have to replace either the front or the rear, it is safer to replace the rear first. As illustrated in the examples in previous posts, worn rear tires will result in a higher chance of oversteer, while worn front tires will result in a higher chance of understeer. Since understeer is easier to correct by a large margin, shops and manufacturers will (if necessary) recommend replacing rears before the fronts.

    It's the same reason you either put winter tires on all 4 corners, or only on the rear wheels. Never just the fronts. Same reason pickups put sandbags in the truck bed and not in the cabin.
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  5. #50
    Structural Member shadonoz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sm1ke View Post
    I never made any mention of hydroplaning.. I have tried to remain on topic since the only thing I was trying to explain was why tire shops and manufacturers recommend putting newer tires on the rear. You were the one who started this tangent with post #19.
    Actually, you weren't part of this thread before my question. You then jumped in trying unsuccessfully to justify the quoted explanation. And now just keep making the same arguments repeatedly. Try to comprehend: I don't agree with you. Let's agree on that.

    What I am saying is that if you have a set of 4 evenly worn tires, and you have to replace either the front or the rear, it is safer to replace the rear first. As illustrated in the examples in previous posts, worn rear tires will result in a higher chance of oversteer, while worn front tires will result in a higher chance of understeer. Since understeer is easier to correct by a large margin, shops and manufacturers will (if necessary) recommend replacing rears before the fronts.
    In your examples, you're talking about "pushing", a very mild form of understeer. Major, loss of control understeer is just as hard to control as oversteer. Apples and oranges.

    It's the same reason you either put winter tires on all 4 corners, or only on the rear wheels. Never just the fronts. Same reason pickups put sandbags in the truck bed and not in the cabin. More irrelevance. That is done to increase traction over the driven wheels. If anything, the extra weight in the rear makes oversteer more likely.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by shadonoz View Post
    Actually, you weren't part of this thread before my question. You then jumped in trying unsuccessfully to justify the quoted explanation. And now just keep making the same arguments repeatedly. Try to comprehend: I don't agree with you. Let's agree on that. You asked a question. Someone else answered it for you, and you didn't understand the rationale. My first comment in this thread was a reply to something yrwei52 said. You quoted me and engaged me directly. All I'm doing is defending my point. You don't have to agree with me, but if you engage me in conversation, I'm going to provide my opinion.

    In your examples, you're talking about "pushing", a very mild form of understeer. Major, loss of control understeer is just as hard to control as oversteer. Apples and oranges. Understeer is understeer. Yes, it gets gradually worse as you continue to push the car's limits, but that's where one of the key differences lies. There is no mild form of oversteer. When the rear kicks out, you have to countersteer to correct. There is more opportunity to correct understeer, and it's easier to correct because it's more predictable and you don't have to countersteer to correct it once you notice that it's happening. Like you said, anyone who gets to the point of major loss of control while understeering needs to learn how to drive.

    More irrelevance. That is done to increase traction over the driven wheels. If anything, the extra weight in the rear makes oversteer more likely. It's done to increase traction on the wheels that provide the most stability, which are the rear wheels.
    For the record, I don't have to justify the explanation. It's a legitimate, industry-wide consensus with extensive testing to support it. That's why tire shops and manufacturers recommend it. Here are a few links for you (there's a lot of them because there are a lot of resources on this topic):

    https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiret....jsp?techid=52
    https://www.popularmechanics.com/car...nked-10031440/
    https://www.theglobeandmail.com/glob...article621608/
    https://www.allstate.com/blog/new-tires-rear/
    https://www.consumerreports.org/cro/...-car/index.htm



    Hope that answers your initial question.
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  7. #52
    Structural Member shadonoz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sm1ke View Post
    For the record, I don't have to justify the explanation.
    Right, so give it up man! Why are you so invested in arguing about this?

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by shadonoz View Post
    Right, so give it up man! Why are you so invested in arguing about this?
    You quoted me and engaged me directly. All I'm doing is defending my point. You don't have to agree with me, but if you engage me in conversation, I'm going to provide my opinion.

    If you're not interested in discussing the topic further, I'm perfectly fine with that. You're as entitled to your opinion as I am to mine, and we can leave it at that.
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  9. #54
    Structural Member shadonoz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sm1ke View Post
    You quoted me and engaged me directly. All I'm doing is defending my point. You don't have to agree with me, but if you engage me in conversation, I'm going to provide my opinion.

    If you're not interested in discussing the topic further, I'm perfectly fine with that. You're as entitled to your opinion as I am to mine, and we can leave it at that.
    Right, we've both expressed our opinions several times. There's nothing to be gained by repeating yourself. You're beating a dead horse.

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    The Internet Chief Judge will now rule. Canada won that one.

  11. #56
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    Remember also, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

  12. #57
    Structural Member shadonoz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sm1ke View Post
    Hope that answers your initial question.
    Yes, when I watched the video, I was convinced. Thanks for posting it.

    Not the first time I've been wrong, and it won't be the last.

    Sorry about the obnoxious bickering.

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    My previous car was AWD. The tire shop (STS) said that the new tires should go on the back. However, the dealer said no, for my car the new tires go on the front because the front of the car was heavier and did the steering. The dealer was right. I don't know what Mazda recommends.

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    This video shows why the new tires should be mounted on the front. It is easier to turn, and easier to take off from a dead stop.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLGFAZ7EFh4

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by shadonoz View Post
    snip
    Hey, no need for an apology. We're just two people with differing opinions who had an open discussion. It's nice to be able to engage in something like that without it degrading into childish name-calling, especially on a platform like this (meaning online forums).
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