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Thread: 2015 Mazda5 suspension upgrade clarifications

  1. #1
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    2015 Mazda5 suspension upgrade clarifications

    Hi All,

    I am in the market for upgraded struts and shocks, due to the OEM front leaking all over the place. I am currently undecided if I want to lower at all or not. I have decided to get good struts and shocks, though, and probably a MS3 rear bar.

    I've been reading a bunch on this forum, and looking for the Bilstein B6 on tire rack or anyplace else that might have them. It looks like Koni is the only real upgrade for the 5 on tirerack, and though they seem to be bulletproof on my Miata, I read lots about them failing on the 5. I don't want to deal with that, and will spend the extra money for the Bilstein if I don't have to do the extra work. I can't find the B6 for the 5, but I can for the V50. Is it a direct fitment? Part numbers for the other brands show different rear part numbers between them. Bilstein's site shows no listing for the 5 in the B6.

    If I decide to go with lowering springs, Eibach, again, is listed for the V50, but not the 5. Only option is H&R for the 5. I'd prefer the Eibach, for no other reason than it is a smaller amount of drop, and H&R is garbage on the Miata. Would the V50 fitment Eibach work on the 5? Vehicle weight looks like it would be fine, but is there any differences in suspension geometry that would effect the amount of drop?

    Does the B6 work well with factory springs, if I decided to stick with factory ride height? Or would they be a bit stiff for stock springs?

    In the Miata world, there are so many options, it's hard to make a good decision based off the reviews . The 5 looks to be a different story entirely.

    So, in a nutshell...
    1. What is the best Bilstein for stock springs? If B4, then fine. If B6, will the V50 application work for a 2015 model?
    2. If I decide to lower, will the V50 application work properly? That's springs and rear shocks, as well.
    3. Are the Koni really that problematic on these?
    4. If I end up going with the Eibach and B6 combo, will I need to get parts to get the alignment back in order?
    5. If I do need to get parts to make the alignment correct, what would I really need to get?
    6. Has anyone played with alignment numbers for better grip/tire wear/handling balance? If so, what have you found that works well?
    7. Should the strut mounts or shock mounts be replaced? I'm at 65k miles currently.
    8. Are there better bump stops that should be used regardless of lowering or not?

    Thanks in advance for the help.
    Eric

  2. #2
    Wiggity-Wack-O-Tack njaremka's Avatar
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    H&R for the Mazda5 are good. Can't really compare with the Miata application.

    For struts, I would go with the B6 on the stock springs, or B8 for the H&Rs.

    I would replace the strut mounts for piece of mind. Front ones have bearings in them for the steering, and they can get worn out. The rears should be fine, but are cheap insurance from having to do the job over again.

    For alignment, if you keep the stock springs nothing will be needed. If you get the H&Rs, drop is minimal that you should be OK. At most, you will only need to get the adjustable rear camber arms.
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  3. #3
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    Excellent. Thanks for the clarification. I can't find the B6 application for the 5, though. Would you know the part numbers for those? Would I be ordering the ones for the V50?

  4. #4
    Booga Booga? phunky.buddha's Avatar

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    If you can't find fitments for the 5, use the part numbers for the Mazdaspeed 3. Not sure on the V50 fitment. As far as Koni or anyone else being problematic, usually it's because the shocks are valved for the 3, not the 5, which is a heavier platform but using the same suspension parts. Mazdaspeed 3 is meant for heavier loads.

    Mild drops, don't worry too much about correcting camber. The fronts are Mac struts, so you won't gain terribly much, and the rears will pick up about a degree if you go an inch down. Relating to that, if you zero out your rear toe, you'll get less scrub without impacting handling or wandering a noticeable amount on the freeway.

    My alignment settings were usually sitting at around -2.0 degrees of camber up front and -1.6 degrees of camber in the back, with toe set to zero all around. Caster was unadjustable with my setup, but everything else could move. With the MS3 rear bar and my spring rates at 9kg/mm front and 7kg/mm rear, it felt really neutral.

    Bump stops, I'd ask the shock manufacturer before going with anything but the stock stops. I used to follow the old rule of cutting your old stops in half, but you could end up over-stroking your shocks on severe compression and damaging the internals if you go too far.

    And not to plug my own stuff, but I do still need to sell my BC BR coilovers and my MS3 rear bar. I haven't posted anything on the forum to sell yet. Everything works perfectly, but the upper front mounts could use torrington bearings to silence the springs during turning.

  5. #5
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    Thanks a bunch for clearing that up for me. Now I just need to decide if I should lower a bit or not. My wife isn't very tall, and it might make a bit of difference for her getting the bikes into the rack on the roof. I'd need to make some ramps to get a jack under it anytime I would need to service it, though. I'm also concerned about changing the ride quality too much and her not liking to drive it anymore, due to harshness issues. We live in central Illinois, so the roads are generally crap. At this point, I'm sorta leaning toward not lowering, but picking up a MS3 rear bar. Phunky buddha, PM me a price for your bar, please. You might not need to list it. The BC's are going to be too stiff for what I can get away with.

    Thanks for the alignment info. That's very helpful. Can you get that much neg camber without the plates on the BC's. Or would I need to get some camber plates or crash bolts to get there? I don't mind throwing in the adjustable rear arms to get there if need be. Not sure I'd need them if I don't get lowering springs, though.

    I wonder if the front to rear spring rate ratio is the same from stock to what the BC's are. That might change up the alignment number needs, possibly.

    For anyone out there running the B8, lowering spring, rear bar combo willing to share ride guality change over rougher roads in comparison to stock, I'd love to get your feedback. I haven't found any reviews in my searching yet. Maybe my google-fu is not good?

    Thanks for the help thus far folks. I very much appreciate it!

  6. #6
    Booga Booga? phunky.buddha's Avatar

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    Hey, you're welcome. I actually liked the ride with the BCs more than the factory suspension- even though the spring rates were higher, the damping was better- so the ride was more controlled. Once I got the stiffness settings sorted out on the dampers, the ride was actually smoother than stock because it was more controlled. No more pogo in the back. I'll PM you a price on the rear sway. Have to measure and weigh it first. I got the spring rates wrong too- they're 8kg/mm front, 7kg/mm rear. I got the custom rates on the Teins for my Civic forever ago, not the BCs on the 5.

    I got the factory spring rates measured at some point- I think I posted it here on the site. The BC rates are stiffer in the rear vs the factory if you're comparing front/rear ratio. I forget by how much though.. if I get a chance to dig through my files I post it up again.

    As far as alignment in the rear, I matched up the adjustable arms to the factory arms bolt hole to bolt hole, then made them a full 4 turns longer. I had done some math on motion ratios and control arm length before I did that, and figured that the 4 turns would get me about a full degree back on the 1.5" drop. I don't remember the specific math now. Given that I ended up around -1.7 to -1.8 degrees in the back with the adjustable arms after the drop, I'm guessing the same drop with the stock upper control arms would give close to -2.5 to -2.7 degrees of camber. I couldn't easily get my adjustable uppers out of the car, so they remain... I might be able to remove them if persuaded hard enough though. And if I had some stock ones to go back in.

    Rear sway bar upgrade won't hurt your ride quality much at all, especially if you go with stiffer springs. It's not THAT much more aggressive than the stock bar.

    As far as Bilstein ride quality- I've been really happy with Bilstein HD shocks on my truck, and you can find lots of B8 reviews in general all over the internet. For the 5 specifically you're not going to find much at all. Think of how many people are actually out there modifying what's basically a small minivan for kid hauling- they're probably all on this forum.

    Links in case they help:

    https://www.mazdas247.com/forum/show...zda-5-Unboxing
    https://www.mazdas247.com/forum/show...and-Install%29

  7. #7
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    Those links and your replies help a bunch. This is the kind of info I hoped to get. I read through all of each of the links, and it is very apparent you know what your doing. I'm actually pretty interested in more info on your S2000 and the coilovers you have on it. But, maybe that's PM material and not applicable to the current discussion. I'm a Miata nut and have been known to knock over a cone or two with our local clubs. I've had experience with several popular suspension upgrades on mine or others cars that I've co-driven. I haven't had a chance to try the AST, though. I will say the higher end stuff is pretty magical.

    Back to the 5 discussion... One of the things you touched on when reviewing the BC's is one of the main factors dissuading me from them. That is the droop travel, or lack thereof. I've driven the Meister CRD+ on the street and have autocrossed them, and they have the same lack of droop travel. The design of them are very similar to the BC. In most situations, they work pretty well, but for a utilitarian vehicle like the 5, I prefer to maintain a more optimised version of what was originally designed for the vehicle. I'm more brave with my toy cars, but this is my wife's daily, and she is pretty in love with it as it is. I don't want to screw that up experimenting with stuff that's too compromised towards the performance end of the spectrum. Hence my hesitation to even lower it as much as the H&R's would. She's pretty patient with me constantly messing with ride heights, alignment settings, shiny new do-hickies on my toys. After more than 23 years of marriage, I have learned my limits.

  8. #8
    Registered Member Silentnoise713's Avatar

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    We don't know your definition of sporty. I thought HDs (before they were renamed B6) with stock '91 Miata springs felt terrible on everyday roads; they needed stiffer spring pairing. Granted, 1st gen Miata is known to ride on the jounce bumper as aux spring and mine were worn so that could contribute to the harshness; point being there are many variables before you take anyone one feedback as a golden rule and there just aren't enough Mz5 Bilstein owners. Read Miata .net/suspension understand the consequence of stiffer shock with softer springs = "jacking down".

    I don't think anyone has tired V50 Eibach but I suspect they fit. I thought about it but didn't want to be the guinea pig as I'm on the tail end of owning the car.



    Search/Ask these users for direct feedback. FWIW, 2nd gen rear springs were revised to be a little stiffer (same height, same coil diameter, less coil = stiffer).

    V50 B6
    Moe Drama (1st gen)
    Primergy (1st gen with new 2nd gen OEM springs)

    B4
    90210 (2nd gen stock springs)
    silentnoise713 (1st gen stock springs)
    Stuff for sale:
    YellowSpeed DPS Coilovers - cheap



    ^http://www.wingood.com/flagselect.asp

    My Thread
    ^http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showt...oise713-Thread

  9. #9
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    Silentnoise713... I actually own a 1991 Miata that I bought with Koni's on the lowest perch, H&R springs and factory bump stops. That didn't work as the car was sitting on the bump stops at a rest, so when I hit a bump it would pogo the rear end into the air and it got interesting if it was mid-corner. I found the front Koni's were blown, so I ordered new Koni's, Fat cat 46mm bump stops, and machined 1/2" spacers to put between the perch clip on the top setting, and the spring seat. That brought the ride height up to just under stock height for a 91. It was far less sketchy, but not optimal. Later I added Flyings Miata springs that I got used and lost the spacers. I then found out I had got old FM springs that sagged. So now it has the new, updated FM Stage 2.5 Koni setup with almost every brace in the FM catalog. It's currently in for paint and in lots of pieces, so I haven't driven that one with that suspension, yet, but the 1997 Illumina Stage 2.5 setup I did on my friend's car was brilliant. I know the shocks make a big difference in the ride between the two, so I am interested to see the differences when I get it back ion the road. My other 1991 I put just the frame rail braces, and had the FM V-max stage 2 package. I have also driven a 1991 with Ricelands, a 1992 Miata with Meister CRD+, a 1997 with the FM stage 1.5 Illumina NB setup, and a Mazdaspeed Miata with Xida's. The Xida's are in another league, both ride and handling, even with 800lb front and 550lb rear springs.

    For point of reference on "sporty" ride, I really like the Stage 2.5 package, and the V-max is too harsh over the bigger bumps. Ride height is approx 1/8" lower than the Stage 2.5 Koni package car, so it's not so low as to reduce travel a significant amount. For the 5, I'd like the control of the Koni Stage 2.5 car, but a bit softer ride and more travel for the family truckster. It will make the family happier on trips.

    I searched the folks you recommended, and it was helpful, though I couldn't find the Moe Drama one. We just returned from a 1400 mile trip over the last week or so, and I don't feel like lowering would be wise for our purposes. I will try to decide if I want to try the Mazdaspeed3 B6. I'm leaning that direction currently, but I'm still tempted by the Koni Yellows. I really don't need the adjustability, as they seem to be a pain to adjust. There is an actual part number for those rears for the 5 specifically, where as I am trying to adapt a Mazdaspeed3 rear and hoping it will do what I need it to. Koni's in the 5 seem to have more issues, so I don't like that. There just doesn't seem to be a proper or "perfect solution" in this case. So, are the correct part number Koni's really less reliable than the incorrect application B6?

    I have ruled out lowering. I do want an upgrade for the shocks and struts. I will likely get a Mazdaspeed3 rear bar, but other than that, I will probably leave the car alone. I'll look into replacing the strut and shock mounts while I'm in there.

    From what I've read, I'll likely need to modify the mounts and/or add some spacers regardless of the options I choose, unless I just settle on the KYB's. Which, I'll most likely not do. I'm home from vacation now, so I'll probably pull the trigger tomorrow or the next day. And last words of advise?

  10. #10
    Registered Member Silentnoise713's Avatar

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    Glad to hear from a fellow NA owner! Moe Drama didn't make a post about it, only chimed in to clue us in. Come to think, I vaguley recall two more; one from Italy and France that also did B6s. Don't recall name.

    If you want to read more. Lots more to read on the left menu.
    http://farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets18.html

    If too lazy to read, watch. (made by Sheikh, founder of Fat Cat, when he was just a small shop!)
    https://www.youtube.com/user/SuspensionTruth/videos



    https://www.kyb.com/catalog/ Look up shock/strut for Mz5, MS3, V50 and check the technical specs. Comparing apples to apples (use Excel G as the apple) and you can see what is different between these cars.

    If considering B6, I*d still advocate the rear V50 B6 over the rear MS3 B6 b/c is likely (totally *ass*uming) stouter for a car with a heftier rear end. The V50 B6 will need a shim for the rear lower bushing b/c it is not as wide (see kyb catalog). The MS3 rear B6 does not need any modification. Also, since you have a *15, you don*t need to touch/change the front or rear strut/shock mounts. FWIW, I tinkered with the OE rear top mounts 4 times and its fine; just be careful and not distort the isolator rubber when you take off that top nut.


    For the 5, I'd like the control of the Koni Stage 2.5 car, but a bit softer ride and more travel for the family truckster. It will make the family happier on trips.
    Honestly I think B4s with JBR rear sway bar set to a higher end of the stiffness setting, decent tires, and alignment may do (again, I have no idea what you really want so take this with a grain of salt). It*s either Spring -=OR=- sway/stabilizer bar to control roll. Ride and handling are mutually exclusive.
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  11. #11
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    Thanks for the link to the kyb catalog. That was helpful. The rears listed for the kyb's show the rear shocks are for all the 3's and 5's except the MS3. It had a part number, but no specs. If I read the specs for the lower mount correctly, the 5 has a 51mm wide lower mount and the V50 has a 36mm mount, both with a diameter of 12mm. That I can work with. I'll just turn up some spacers before I need to install the shocks, and I should be good. So, I just went ahead and ordered a full set of 2011 Volvo B6 Bilstein's. They should be here sometime next week. I'll let everyone know how it goes and do a write up on the change in ride and handling as well. I'm gonna skip the mounts, as they should be ok. I'll let you know if it is any different.

    Thanks for everyone's input.

    phunky buddha... Let me know about that rear bar when you get a chance.

  12. #12
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    Just a quick update... I have the Billies in the shop, but need to make the spacers. I'll report back when they are in.

  13. #13
    Booga Booga? phunky.buddha's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by 4giglz View Post
    Those links and your replies help a bunch. This is the kind of info I hoped to get. I read through all of each of the links, and it is very apparent you know what your doing. I'm actually pretty interested in more info on your S2000 and the coilovers you have on it. But, maybe that's PM material and not applicable to the current discussion. I'm a Miata nut and have been known to knock over a cone or two with our local clubs. I've had experience with several popular suspension upgrades on mine or others cars that I've co-driven. I haven't had a chance to try the AST, though. I will say the higher end stuff is pretty magical.
    Yup, definitely PM material or a phone call. I rarely tracked the S2k, but my friends that did had plenty of opportunity to compare my ASTs to their Fortunes, KW3s, Buddy Clubs, HKS, Tein, etc. Let's just say that I could go 1G sustained in a high speed sweeper on the way to work and still hit a bump with barely any rude behavior in the car at all. Wonderful shocks.

    Back to the 5 discussion... One of the things you touched on when reviewing the BC's is one of the main factors dissuading me from them. That is the droop travel, or lack thereof. I've driven the Meister CRD+ on the street and have autocrossed them, and they have the same lack of droop travel. The design of them are very similar to the BC. In most situations, they work pretty well, but for a utilitarian vehicle like the 5, I prefer to maintain a more optimised version of what was originally designed for the vehicle. I'm more brave with my toy cars, but this is my wife's daily, and she is pretty in love with it as it is. I don't want to screw that up experimenting with stuff that's too compromised towards the performance end of the spectrum. Hence my hesitation to even lower it as much as the H&R's would. She's pretty patient with me constantly messing with ride heights, alignment settings, shiny new do-hickies on my toys. After more than 23 years of marriage, I have learned my limits.
    The lack of droop travel doesn't exactly result from compromising towards the performance end of the spectrum on the BCs- it's because in the end they're still cheapo coilovers with universal cartridges shoved into custom mounting hardware for each car. Since it's a one-size-fits-all solution, the damper isn't maxed out to the largest it can be within the space that you have for a specific car's suspension. All the other parts- independently adjustable length vs pre-load, super long threaded bodies to let you drop mega low- they're all "features" that are a result of the compromise for maximum revenue parts model. If it was truly a shortened shock setup for the 5 application to maximize damper stroke within the operating range that the damper was designed for, and THAT reduced the droop travel, then I would say it's a performance compromise. Not so in this case, at least that's MY humble assumption. Regardless, the BCs aren't a bad setup at all for the price, considering its quality vs what else you can get for under $1k.

    The lack of droop didn't cause me any problems at all other than lifting a rear wheel every now and then going into steep driveways, or the feeling sometimes that you might have gone slightly airborne but aren't quite sure on a REALLY big bump after a dip that just threw your car, but you were never quite sure since nothing ever came crashing down. I wasn't racing the car. Even when driving like a total ass, it didn't cause any issues. But that doesn't matter for you anyway- since it seems like you took the route I would have recommended since you didn't want to drop the car.

    Quote Originally Posted by 4giglz View Post
    Silentnoise713... I actually own a 1991 Miata that I bought with Koni's on the lowest perch, H&R springs and factory bump stops. That didn't work as the car was sitting on the bump stops at a rest, so when I hit a bump it would pogo the rear end into the air and it got interesting if it was mid-corner. I found the front Koni's were blown, so I ordered new Koni's, Fat cat 46mm bump stops, and machined 1/2" spacers to put between the perch clip on the top setting, and the spring seat. That brought the ride height up to just under stock height for a 91. It was far less sketchy, but not optimal. Later I added Flyings Miata springs that I got used and lost the spacers. I then found out I had got old FM springs that sagged. So now it has the new, updated FM Stage 2.5 Koni setup with almost every brace in the FM catalog. It's currently in for paint and in lots of pieces, so I haven't driven that one with that suspension, yet, but the 1997 Illumina Stage 2.5 setup I did on my friend's car was brilliant. I know the shocks make a big difference in the ride between the two, so I am interested to see the differences when I get it back ion the road. My other 1991 I put just the frame rail braces, and had the FM V-max stage 2 package. I have also driven a 1991 with Ricelands, a 1992 Miata with Meister CRD+, a 1997 with the FM stage 1.5 Illumina NB setup, and a Mazdaspeed Miata with Xida's. The Xida's are in another league, both ride and handling, even with 800lb front and 550lb rear springs.

    For point of reference on "sporty" ride, I really like the Stage 2.5 package, and the V-max is too harsh over the bigger bumps. Ride height is approx 1/8" lower than the Stage 2.5 Koni package car, so it's not so low as to reduce travel a significant amount. For the 5, I'd like the control of the Koni Stage 2.5 car, but a bit softer ride and more travel for the family truckster. It will make the family happier on trips.

    I searched the folks you recommended, and it was helpful, though I couldn't find the Moe Drama one. We just returned from a 1400 mile trip over the last week or so, and I don't feel like lowering would be wise for our purposes. I will try to decide if I want to try the Mazdaspeed3 B6. I'm leaning that direction currently, but I'm still tempted by the Koni Yellows. I really don't need the adjustability, as they seem to be a pain to adjust. There is an actual part number for those rears for the 5 specifically, where as I am trying to adapt a Mazdaspeed3 rear and hoping it will do what I need it to. Koni's in the 5 seem to have more issues, so I don't like that. There just doesn't seem to be a proper or "perfect solution" in this case. So, are the correct part number Koni's really less reliable than the incorrect application B6?

    I have ruled out lowering. I do want an upgrade for the shocks and struts. I will likely get a Mazdaspeed3 rear bar, but other than that, I will probably leave the car alone. I'll look into replacing the strut and shock mounts while I'm in there.

    From what I've read, I'll likely need to modify the mounts and/or add some spacers regardless of the options I choose, unless I just settle on the KYB's. Which, I'll most likely not do. I'm home from vacation now, so I'll probably pull the trigger tomorrow or the next day. And last words of advise?
    What exactly are the spacers for again? Raise it up some?

    I haven't driven any of the setups that you mentioned, but a good review in the Miata section of the site would be awesome once you have it sorted... as much as a text review can help someone evaluate suspension. :P

    I didn't get a chance to PM you on the rear sway, but I'll try to get to it this week. Just spent the last 3 weeks away from home, so getting sorted still.

  14. #14
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    The spacers are for the rear shock, lower eye, for mounting to the control arm. The V50's are 36mm across, and the 5 is 51mm. The spacers are to make up the difference.

    No worries or hurry on the sway bar. I'm a bit burried both at work and at home, currently, so it will likely be a couple weeks before I can even get back to the leaking strut repair. Fortunately, it still drives without a noticable issue for now.

    I will post a review in the Miata section when I get the Miata back on the road and the alignment numbers sorted. That, however, will be more than a couple weeks from now.

  15. #15
    Booga Booga? phunky.buddha's Avatar

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    Excellent- will watch for the review, and get your sway bar quote once I fly out and back again for work.

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