i-ACTIVE AWD not so Active

My wife an I are enjoying our 2018 Signature, with kid #3 on the way, her Pontiac G8 GT sadly had to go (we bought a CPO with 6000 miles back in Feb).

Having have several 4WD vehicles over the years (Landcruiser, Vehicross, Montero, XC90), currently a Cayenne turbo, and a AWD car (3000GT VR-4) I am very disappointed with the i-ACTIVE awd system on the CX9.

With a hard launch, especially if the wheel is turned (pulling out and making a right turn for example),there is a lot of slip (hear the tires spinning), torque steer, and the traction control even kicks in zapping power, which to me indicates the AWD system is not transferring nearly enough power to the rear wheels. And this is on a dry surface Im talking about. Issues are only compounded on wet surfaces.

All of my other 4WD vehicles where true 4WD with transfer cases, so yes different animals. My XC90 was front wheel drive biased, with a haldex awd system, now it didn't have the 310 ftlbs of torque the CX9 has, but it never spun the front tires nor did the traction control ever come on, and no torque steer.
Even my 3000GT with 400+ hp doesnt spin the tires (unless the clutch is dumped), and its FWD based system, although a true viscous coupling diff and 40/60 torque split (so that might explain it).


So, its either the AWD system, or perhaps its the tires. I have the stock BS Ecopias, so we will see if things change when I go to replace them. These things are design for noise, rolling resistance, so dry traction is obviously a trade-off.


Are you all experiencing the same?
Im wondering if there is an update to the awd system software?

It would be awesome if we could control the bias, I did a hack back in the day on the Vehicross, so you could dial in the torque split as it was an On Demand system too. But I have heard others talk about small fluide capacity and possible overheating.

I think Mazda missed the mark with i-ACTIVE. I know the CX9 isnt an off road vehicle, but I am having sub-optimal performance in even its target use, on road and on dry pavement!

Seems like there is also a trend towards more off road capable systems recently,coming full circle on SUV's from the early ones with true 4WD systems (Honda, KIA, all have some kind of dirt, gravel, snow settings), so MAzda needs to catch up.
 
I have not had that much experience with the CX-9 as we only have had it 5 months and have only had it on a wet surface a couple of times. That said it's the same system that was on the previous CX-5 and it was not an issue really. It seems the rear was always engaged when it needed when it was wet or snowy. It's funny because Mazda really touted this system as ground breaking and better than some of the usual FWD biased AWD systems with it's "predictive sensors" located throughout the vehicle. In the end it is probably not as good as some of the others. Yes I can get the front to break lose if I floor it and theres some gravel on the road but how often are we going to do that?

I'm looking at Honda Ridgeline for our truck needs and that vehicle definitely has a better AWD system. It's basically the SH-AWD that comes in the Acura product but retuned a bit. It can send more power to the rear when needed and will split power between the rear wheels if need be. Tires have a huge impact as well. Our CX-9 came with the Falken's and I know things will improve when those get replaced.
 
Rarely will I ever hard launch my CX-9, but when I do, I always turn off traction control. My 2018 also came with Ecopias, and they were an ok tire for average use. I switched to a different wheel and tire setup, and dry traction is indeed better. I'd suggest switching to a better tire, and if you've got cash to burn, lighter wheels. The OEM 20s weigh almost 40 lbs each.
 
Threw a quick clip together here:


Windows were down. First pull was with Traction Control on, second was with TC off. Engine was at operating temps. Ambient temp at 19c. Wheels are Vossen VFS-2 22x10.5, tires are Nexen Roadian HP in 285/35/22. Engine has 22000 kms, tires have about 1500 kms on them. Running on Shell 91.

The TC warning light didn't go off while TC was active, and there was no chirping during both pulls.
 
My wife an I are enjoying our 2018 Signature, with kid #3 on the way, her Pontiac G8 GT sadly had to go (we bought a CPO with 6000 miles back in Feb).

Having have several 4WD vehicles over the years (Landcruiser, Vehicross, Montero, XC90), currently a Cayenne turbo, and a AWD car (3000GT VR-4) I am very disappointed with the i-ACTIVE awd system on the CX9.

With a hard launch, especially if the wheel is turned (pulling out and making a right turn for example),there is a lot of slip (hear the tires spinning), torque steer, and the traction control even kicks in zapping power, which to me indicates the AWD system is not transferring nearly enough power to the rear wheels. And this is on a dry surface Im talking about. Issues are only compounded on wet surfaces.

All of my other 4WD vehicles where true 4WD with transfer cases, so yes different animals. My XC90 was front wheel drive biased, with a haldex awd system, now it didn't have the 310 ftlbs of torque the CX9 has, but it never spun the front tires nor did the traction control ever come on, and no torque steer.
Even my 3000GT with 400+ hp doesnt spin the tires (unless the clutch is dumped), and its FWD based system, although a true viscous coupling diff and 40/60 torque split (so that might explain it).


So, its either the AWD system, or perhaps its the tires. I have the stock BS Ecopias, so we will see if things change when I go to replace them. These things are design for noise, rolling resistance, so dry traction is obviously a trade-off.


Are you all experiencing the same?
Im wondering if there is an update to the awd system software?

It would be awesome if we could control the bias, I did a hack back in the day on the Vehicross, so you could dial in the torque split as it was an On Demand system too. But I have heard others talk about small fluide capacity and possible overheating.

I think Mazda missed the mark with i-ACTIVE. I know the CX9 isnt an off road vehicle, but I am having sub-optimal performance in even its target use, on road and on dry pavement!

Seems like there is also a trend towards more off road capable systems recently,coming full circle on SUV's from the early ones with true 4WD systems (Honda, KIA, all have some kind of dirt, gravel, snow settings), so MAzda needs to catch up.

No, the car has an extreme front wheel bias and will spin the wheels if TCS is not turned off. Stupid naming system. In wet weather, I actually turn the TCS off to drive around. As you say, make a turn and having to hammer it will cause wheel spin if the TCS is on.

I love my CX-9 but the AWD system is nothing like in other cars. My brothers xDrive 4 series will pull hard without even the thought of wheel slippage in a rainstorm.
 
This behaviour as been documented in various reviews. Apparently using the sport mode may help, but I am not too sure. I will have to wait until this winter to truly know on this behave on snow.

I think the issue is the huge amount of immediate torque at the low end, coupled with the fwd bias. Not many front based all wheel drive have to deal with that much torque immediately, for example my Ford Edge AWD never spinned wheel, but it*s 253 ft-lb would only show up at 4000 rpm, plenty of time for the awd to react.

But I agree, Mazda should have seen this coming and have adjusted the AWD accordingly.
 
Thanks for the conversation and tips all.

I will try with the traction control off, and see how I like it, kinda a pain though. I never needed traction control or to turn it off before on a dry surface with an awd vehicle, nor rain for that matter. Snow, yes.
Guess I just need to get used to it, and since its not my daily driver, rather my wifes, I can live with it : ).

I drive aggressively, not stupid or recklessly, but I am an auto enthusiast, I work in the tire industry designing and testing tires, and I road race. After all, that's why I sold my wife the CX9 as the best drivers 3 row suv, knowing I would drive it when the family is all together and other times.
That's why we all bought it, right?
SO yes, I do launch aggressively enough to obviously notice this issue, as others have as well it sounds.


Ill get some new tires too, Im thinking that will help a bit.

And I will play with it more in the snow this winter, looking out the window to see how soon the rears engage.

Sport mode makes no difference with the wheel spin or traction control intervening, at least from what I could tell.

Ill forgive Mazda and the CX9, cause otherwise its a great machine!
 
Ive completed many test drives in the CX-9, and theres no question that it demonstrates obvious torque steer when launching from a stopand Im not launching hard, either. Its disappointing. By contrast, my wifes Murano (which uses a similar AWD system) appears to lock up more power in the rear when the vehicle stops, anticipating the next acceleration event. Its inexplicable why Mazda doesnt do that also, other than perhaps it is a way to make fuel economy tests just a little bit better. If thats the reason, I suppose thats preferable to me over an engine auto stop/start feature which cant be disabled.

Another disappointment is the apparently lousy stock tires that Mazda puts on the car. If I buy a $40k+ car, I dont want to have to go spend another $1k+ on tires right away. It seems like some other brands (notably, Hyundai/Kia) ship with better tires, on a less expensive vehicle. Even some Fords ship with decent Michelins. Slipping can be blamed on the tires, but torque steer is very obviously the fault of poor AWD tuning, in my opinion.
 
I'm looking at Honda Ridgeline for our truck needs and that vehicle definitely has a better AWD system. It's basically the SH-AWD that comes in the Acura product but retuned a bit. It can send more power to the rear when needed and will split power between the rear wheels if need be. Tires have a huge impact as well. Our CX-9 came with the Falken's and I know things will improve when those get replaced.

I keep reading about the great SH-AWD system, but none of the reviews Ive seen so far appear to demonstrate that its any better than most other systems. The demos that Car Question did on YouTube appeared to show SH-AWD performing slightly *worse* than Mazdas system (on both the MDX and Ridgeline, as I recall).

We had a Subaru wagon years ago, and never had a traction issue even with the stock all-season tires. We also had an Audi Quattro, which was probably the best AWD system Ive ever driven; unfortunately, most of the rest of the car wasnt so reliable.

Most of these automatic AWD systems, including SH-AWD and Mazdas system, appear to be physically and functionally similar, with the main difference being computer-based tuning. The vehicles are FWD, the systems lack a center clutch, and they just lock up the rear in various minority percentages based upon system tuning under certain conditions.
 
I*ve completed many test drives in the CX-9, and there*s no question that it demonstrates obvious torque steer when launching from a stop*and I*m not launching hard, either. It*s disappointing. By contrast, my wife*s Murano (which uses a similar AWD system) appears to lock up more power in the rear when the vehicle stops, anticipating the next acceleration event. It*s inexplicable why Mazda doesn*t do that also, other than perhaps it is a way to make fuel economy tests just a little bit better. If that*s the reason, I suppose that*s preferable to me over an engine auto stop/start *feature* which can*t be disabled.

Another disappointment is the apparently lousy stock tires that Mazda puts on the car. If I buy a $40k+ car, I don*t want to have to go spend another $1k+ on tires right away. It seems like some other brands (notably, Hyundai/Kia) ship with better tires, on a less expensive vehicle. Even some Fords ship with decent Michelins. Slipping can be blamed on the tires, but torque steer is very obviously the fault of poor AWD tuning, in my opinion.


What is interesting is that the CX-5 does not suffer from any of this. To get the system to work in the CX-9, you need to turn off TCS and use sport mode. I find that reduces the wheel spin and shifts power to the rear much faster.
 
Mazda's system is most like Honda's or Toyota's "real-time" all wheel drive systems in that it won't shift power to the rear unless the fronts slip first. That said, I've found Mazda's to be better than Honda's at least, based on my experience. However, it's not as good as the "full-time" systems found in the likes of Subaru's Symmetrical AWD or BMW's xDrive, both of which I've also spent a lot of time with.

As others have alluded to, the Bridgestone Ecopias are terrible and I've mentioned it plenty in some of my other posts here. These tires are easily holding back the AWD system as well because they're so prone to slipping. They were so awful to the point where I didn't feel safe sometimes while driving my CX-9 this past winter. I've complained about it every opportunity I've gotten when Mazda sends me a survey and even posted an online review or two. I look forward to replacing these junk tires later this fall in preparation for the winter. I'm extremely disappointed though that it's something I need to take the initiative to address. Bridgestone is at fault for making such a bad tire, but Mazda is at fault for deciding to use them on their vehicles.

Tires aside, Mazda's AWD does have its quirks and nuances, but it's not the worst system out there. BMW's xDrive really did spoil me though. My 335 had more power and less weight on its wheels but flooring it from a stop resulted in no slippage and immediate forward motion, even in the rain. Taking off in the snow of course would have some wheels slip, but I could always feel confident that the car would move forward and without any drama. The Ecopias were so bad that the CX-9 would struggle even with simple maneuvers in the snow.
 
My experiences with the Ecopias weren't nearly as bad as others. That said, there are plenty of other, better tires out there to use, and Mazda should not have used these ones.
 
Indeed...This is why I changed to the Bridgestone Dueler H/L Alenza Plus, the difference was significant to me. Who would think that the same company's tire would have such a different and positive impact. I really felt better while driving through a pouring rain recently in DC, while others pulled over. Worth the investment, YMMV of course.

Peace and blessings,

Azeke
 
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What is interesting is that the CX-5 does not suffer from any of this. To get the system to work in the CX-9, you need to turn off TCS and use sport mode. I find that reduces the wheel spin and shifts power to the rear much faster.

Yes, Ive heard that the system works better with TCS off, which seems counter-intuitive. If that is the case, Im not sure why that dont make that the default behavior.
 
Yes, I*ve heard that the system works better with TCS off, which seems counter-intuitive. If that is the case, I*m not sure why that don*t make that the default behavior.

Most drivers don't need to shift power to the rear to reduce wheel spin. Like most AWD systems in this class, it's basically just there for the casual driver who needs a little more reassurance in inclement conditions, not for maximum traction from a launch.
 
If the CX-9's AWD system has similar performance to the cx-3. I'm happy with that. I've driven the CX-3 with winter tires and it's just as good as my Mercedes GLK and CLA 4matic. They all work very well in real world conditions.
 
Mazda's system is most like Honda's or Toyota's "real-time" all wheel drive systems in that it won't shift power to the rear unless the fronts slip first. That said, I've found Mazda's to be better than Honda's at least, based on my experience. However, it's not as good as the "full-time" systems found in the likes of Subaru's Symmetrical AWD or BMW's xDrive, both of which I've also spent a lot of time with.

Subaru advertises Symmetrical AWD, but I dont think that means a 50/50 split. If you look at their marketing materials, it appears that symmetrical to them means something about symmetry of the whole driveline. We used to have an Outback wagon, which was great in the bad weather, but I seem to recall at that time the manual transmission models were 50/50 and the automatics (like ours) were quite FWD biasedperhaps as much as a 90/10 splitbut still, I dont recall a slip or torque steer event in that car (though its 4 cylinder engine was somewhat underpowered).
 
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Most drivers don't need to shift power to the rear to reduce wheel spin. Like most AWD systems in this class, it's basically just there for the casual driver who needs a little more reassurance in inclement conditions, not for maximum traction from a launch.

Ive driven plenty of FWD vehicles where Ive spun the front wheels from a stop, and I dont drive aggressively. A little loose gravel, poor tires, or a wet or snowy road is all it takes. An engaged AWD system would almost always prevent that problem.

If buyers are paying for the AWD system, theres no reason why the manufacturer shouldnt tune it for optimal performance during all conditions. If Im going to pay $1800-$2000 for an AWD system, why not buy one which works all the time, especially in a vehicle marketed as a drivers car?
 
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Quote :*As others have alluded to, the Bridgestone Ecopias are terrible and I've mentioned it plenty in some of my other posts here. These tires are easily holding back the AWD system as well because they're so prone to slipping. They were so awful to the point where I didn't feel safe sometimes while driving my CX-9 this past winter. I've complained about it every opportunity I've gotten when Mazda sends me a survey and even posted an online review or two. I look forward to replacing these junk tires later this fall in preparation for the winter. I'm extremely disappointed though that it's something I need to take the initiative to address. Bridgestone is at fault for making such a bad tire, but Mazda is at fault for deciding to use them on their vehicles.*


Mine came with OEM Falkens and these were okay rest of season but not during winter as I felt unsafe driving around (not enough grip/traction on snow and/or ice) so I replaced them with Nokian all weather tires (winter rated) after 8mos. They performed better during winter and not much diff than all season tires the rest of the year but at least didn*t have to deal with spring and fall changeovers. I recently got a CX-3 AWD and it came with stock Yokohama all seasons...planning to change them too with all-weather tires this fall in prep for winter...
 
I*ve driven plenty of FWD vehicles where I*ve spun the front wheels from a stop, and I don*t drive aggressively. A little loose gravel, poor tires, or a wet or snowy road is all it takes. An engaged AWD system would almost always prevent that problem.

If buyers are paying for the AWD system, there*s no reason why the manufacturer shouldn*t tune it for optimal performance during all conditions. If I*m going to pay $1800-$2000 for an AWD system, why not buy one which works all the time, especially in a vehicle marketed as a *driver*s car?*

Two words: fuel efficiency. If the AWD system were "always on", the mileage would be worse. Tuning the car to make the AWD "always on" just isn't necessary for most buyers, but fuel efficiency is. I think that's why Mazda marketed the whole "predictive AWD" with 900 sensors or whatever, they wanted to make it sound like it would be similar to an "always on" AWD system for marketing purposes, but in reality the predictive AWD is probably quite limited.

Blaming a FWD-biased AWD system for poor performance only applies if everything else is ideal (ie. good tires, good conditions). Take a look at (and listen to) the video I posted earlier of my own CX-9 with better all-season tires. No wheel spin, and traction control didn't engage. The AWD system isn't perfect, but it's not the reason for the OP's concerns. It's the tires that come with the car.
 
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