Email back from Mazda - Transmission Fluid Change

Just my experience and many here differ but only transmissions I ever had failure on were ones with high mileage and stock fluid. Perhaps some transmissions are more tolerant of abuse but I will be doing drain and fill (I know only partial) on my vehicles. I will report back if it was a futile effort on my CX-5 and experience a failure. This topic comes up a lot on the Toyota/Lexus forums as well with the same viewpoints.
How many miles does your CX-5 have and when do you plan to do the drain/fill?
 
[SUB][/SUB]But you have to use tricky RTV to form a pan gasket where many DIYers don't like to deal with.

What is it tricky about that? Three-bond automatic transmission gasket and job is done. Same silicone used by Mazda dealership here in Australia as I had to repair one pan and it was supplied in a cartridge with the pan.
 
Just my experience and many here differ but only transmissions I ever had failure on were ones with high mileage and stock fluid. Perhaps some transmissions are more tolerant of abuse but I will be doing drain and fill (I know only partial) on my vehicles. I will report back if it was a futile effort on my CX-5 and experience a failure. This topic comes up a lot on the Toyota/Lexus forums as well with the same viewpoints.

The thing is, the SkyActiv unit is very different. There is a LOT LESS slippage in it than other automatics. It's kindof its own animal.
 
Is there a good way to measure how much fluid comes out so I know how much to put in?

If I were going to do it myself, I'd drop the pan, completely clean it, completely remove gasket/RTV from the pan and its mating surfaces, and I'd measure the volume of ATF once it hit room temp, and then put the same amount back in, also at room temp, then drive it, scan-tool or something to check actual temp, check dipstick, etc. You really really don't want to get this wrong.
 
The thing is, the SkyActiv unit is very different. There is a LOT LESS slippage in it than other automatics. It's kindof its own animal.
Actually SkyActiv-Drive transmission is still a conventional hydraulic step automatic transmission. The key difference is it minimized slipping torque converter usage to improve fuel economy and provide more of a direct drive feel. it programmed the lock-up clutch inside of torque converter locking whenever possible. In order to maximize lock-up range, NVH performance and clutch reliability were also improved accordingly.
 
But you have to use tricky RTV to form a pan gasket where many DIYers don't like to deal with.
What is it tricky about that? Three-bond automatic transmission gasket and job is done. Same silicone used by Mazda dealership here in Australia as I had to repair one pan and it was supplied in a cartridge with the pan.
When you apply RTV to the pan, it's difficult to make it evenly applied. You definitely don't want too much on it, too little could make sealing leak too. Heck even robot is having problem to make this RTV gasket sealing properly on our SkyActiv-G's timing chain cover! (whistle)

Not sure Mazda uses the same RTV sealant to form an ATF pan gasket, but RTV sealant from Mazda used on engine oil pan is pretty expensive ⋯

Good question... and it looks like it is RTV... from this schematic

https://www.onlinemazdaparts.com/a/...-AWD/_51507_6228685/ENGINE-PARTS/5470196.html

Next time I drop the cover I'll look at it. I can do it pretty quickly on ramps and electric screwdriver.
And that engine sealant R2Y110431 costs $74.59 MSRP! (wow)
 
I think the thing to take into account is that Mazda's SkyActiv is a very different sort of transmission. There is a lot less "slipping" going on inside of it than other automatics. This would seem born out by the UOA we had, at 67K miles, that said the fluid was just fine and still going strong.

Curious, did you get absolutely stoopid money for it? I heard VW was paying bank for those.

I drove the TDI for 5 years and put just over 50k miles on it. After the buyback was done I lost less than $4k of my original purchase price of the VW. I sure do miss the torque and getting nearly 50 mpg!
 
Actually SkyActiv-Drive transmission is still a conventional hydraulic step automatic transmission. The key difference is it minimized slipping torque converter usage to improve fuel economy and provide more of a direct drive feel. it programmed the lock-up clutch inside of torque converter locking whenever possible. In order to maximize lock-up range, NVH performance and clutch reliability were also improved accordingly.

Yep, and here is a visualization.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqHGnfnQPk4

My question is...how does this affect fluid temps? How does this affect shearing? How does this affect wear and tear of the fluid and the transmission, as well? How critical are the parameters of the fluid?

So far, I have only seen one UOA from a SkyActiv, and it appeared to have, at 67K miles, similar wear and tear as fluid from a 24K mile transmission, per the institution analyzing it.

Would you say that conventional fluid in a conventional transmission is good for 100K miles before transmission failure? If so, extrapolating, that is 268K miles of driving with the SkyActiv without changing it. What if you say "Nah, you can get 150K miles out of a conventional box with regular fluid, then it's prolly gonna die"...well, that's 400K miles from the CX5, at which point, the engine and other things have likely had issue, or more likely still, it was wrecked/you traded it/whatever.

Regardless, NOONE out there has a CX5 with 250K+ miles that I have seen, and noone out there has reported a failure due to fluid, that I have seen. If you or others have seen either, please post, as it would be informative! My point being, the benefits of changing the fluid remain theoretical, as do the detriments of NOT changing the fluid. The only FACTS we have, is that changing t he fluid is dangerous (you or the technician can make an error), and it costs money. These last two, are why everything taken as a whole, I have not, nor will I change it, based on current evidence. I constantly scour this forum and the 'net looking for more on the matter though, honestly, I am curious.
 
When you apply RTV to the pan, it's difficult to make it evenly applied. You definitely don't want too much on it, too little could make sealing leak too. Heck even robot is having problem to make this RTV gasket sealing properly on our SkyActiv-G's timing chain cover! (whistle)

Not sure Mazda uses the same RTV sealant to form an ATF pan gasket, but RTV sealant from Mazda used on engine oil pan is pretty expensive ⋯

The Jeep dealership uses RTV and they do it all the time on the WK's. I've never heard of anyone having an issue with it. If Chrysler technicians at t he dealership can do it, surely other people given a modicum of training or practice can do it as well.
 
Is there a good way to measure how much fluid comes out so I know how much to put in?
If I were going to do it myself, I'd drop the pan, completely clean it, completely remove gasket/RTV from the pan and its mating surfaces, and I'd measure the volume of ATF once it hit room temp, and then put the same amount back in, also at room temp, then drive it, scan-tool or something to check actual temp, check dipstick, etc. You really really don't want to get this wrong.
Pretty much covered everything on changing ATF.

Something I'd add is measuring the "exact" ATF amount drained, especially taking the pan down, is a little difficult as sometime you may spill some. The other thing is based on ATF Drain/Fill thread in How-To section, some people found Mazda has under-filled ATF from factory, like engine oil、coolant、and real differential. It can be a reference, but I wouldn't trust it fully. The wide range of 3.7~5.18 US qt. given by Mazda service manual for drain-and-fill with filter replacement won't help us too much either. I wish Mazda can give us one easy ATF change capacity like Honda does on my CR-V - 3.1 US qt., no more、no less.

Finally I hope Anchorman or Kedis82ZE8 can post proper ATF level measurement procedure from Mazda. Do we need measure it while engine is running? (that would be difficult to do with the intake air box on the way) In what gear? And in what ATF/coolant temperature?
 
Pretty much covered everything on changing ATF.

Something I'd add is measuring the "exact" ATF amount drained, especially taking the pan down, is a little difficult as sometime you may spill some. The other thing is based on ATF Drain/Fill thread in How-To section, some people found Mazda has under-filled ATF from factory, like engine oil、coolant、and real differential. It can be a reference, but I wouldn't trust it fully. The wide range of 3.7~5.18 US qt. given by Mazda service manual for drain-and-fill with filter replacement won't help us too much either. I wish Mazda can give us one easy ATF change capacity like Honda does on my CR-V - 3.1 US qt., no more、no less.

Finally I hope Anchorman or Kedis82ZE8 can post proper ATF level measurement procedure from Mazda. Do we need measure it while engine is running? (that would be difficult to do with the intake air box on the way) In what gear? And in what ATF/coolant temperature?

How full was the filter?
How hot was the fluid when you drained?
What amount of fluid was in the tq converter and gear sets? Does it vary by position somehow?
How this, how that. Man, it's super complex and would stress me to no end second-guessing that sort of thing. I think the only way to get it right is with proper scan (temp) tools, and checking the dipstick correctly. Otherwise you're just playing at guessing, but playing at guessing should get you close enough that you won't overfill it for sure, and you can always add a bit, add a bit, until it's *right*.
 
How full was the filter?
How hot was the fluid when you drained?
What amount of fluid was in the tq converter and gear sets? Does it vary by position somehow?
How this, how that. Man, it's super complex and would stress me to no end second-guessing that sort of thing. I think the only way to get it right is with proper scan (temp) tools, and checking the dipstick correctly. Otherwise you're just playing at guessing, but playing at guessing should get you close enough that you won't overfill it for sure, and you can always add a bit, add a bit, until it's *right*.
That's why I really would like to see Mazda's official procedure on ATF level measurement with provided dipstick; and that's why I like Honda's approach, gives you one specific refill capacity, no temperature needs to measure. And use dipstick to verify, the ATF level has always been right on the money!
 
How full was the filter?
How hot was the fluid when you drained?
What amount of fluid was in the tq converter and gear sets? Does it vary by position somehow?
How this, how that. Man, it's super complex and would stress me to no end second-guessing that sort of thing. I think the only way to get it right is with proper scan (temp) tools, and checking the dipstick correctly. Otherwise you're just playing at guessing, but playing at guessing should get you close enough that you won't overfill it for sure, and you can always add a bit, add a bit, until it's *right*.

All you need is correct temperature readout and a fluid level. Why the fuss?
 
All you need is correct temperature readout and a fluid level. Why the fuss?
Mazda gives us 3.7~5.18 US qt. as the ATF drain-and-fill capacity. Do you want to start with 3.7 qt. for initial fill or use the amount you just drained out which is a hassle to measure? Then you need to measure ATF level with dipstick with engine runnng (assuming that's needed) and check the coolant temperature (don't think there's a true ATF temperature reading) but there's air box blocking the dipstick access. Then you most likely need to add a little at a time because you started low and you definitely don't want to overfill it. Then you have to repeat the process several times to get good measurement. So I agree Unobtanium's comment.
 
Mazda gives us 3.7~5.18 US qt. as the ATF drain-and-fill capacity. Do you want to start with 3.7 qt. for initial fill or use the amount you just drained out which is a hassle to measure? Then you need to measure ATF level with dipstick with engine runnng (assuming that's needed) and check the coolant temperature (don't think there's a true ATF temperature reading) but there's air box blocking the dipstick access. Then you most likely need to add a little at a time because you started low and you definitely don't want to overfill it. Then you have to repeat the process several times to get good measurement. So I agree Unobtanium's comment.

JEEEEZZZ. It's not brain surgery. You pull off a bottom panel and check the fluid when it gets to specified temperature. You need to add a little at a time to any fluid change provided you don't overfill to start with, which I don't. I'd probably start with 3 quarts and then go from there. Several times to repeat process? Nah, I'll hone it down to 3 or 4....
 
JEEEEZZZ. It's not brain surgery. You pull off a bottom panel and check the fluid when it gets to specified temperature. You need to add a little at a time to any fluid change provided you don't overfill to start with, which I don't. I'd probably start with 3 quarts and then go from there. Several times to repeat process? Nah, I'll hone it down to 3 or 4....
Do you keep the engine running when you measure the ATF? With air box out I can see it'd be easier but with engine running without air filter?

I guess comparing to ATF change on my Honda CR-V, where nothing needs to be removed and I pour in exactly 3.1 qt. of fresh ATF and done, this's a pretty complicated process to me! Or may be I'm just getting too old for this ⋯ ;)
 
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