Turn ABS Off

D

dennyd75

:
2010 CX-9
You all seem like a smart bunch so let me post a hypothetical question. First a little background l:

Last summer we bought our daughter her first car, a 2002 Honda Accord. Unbeknownst to me at the time, it does not have antilock brakes.

Fast forward to earlier this winter, I drive the Accord during a snow event and I realized that, while I do consider ABS to be a good and important safety feature, they suck on snow and ice. Non-ABS actually brakes better in those conditions, specifically at slow (neighborhood and parking lot) speeds as it allows the brakes to work. ABS just keeps pumping the brakes to keep them from locking up, which is (to me) not particularly appealing at these lower speeds.

So now my question: would turning off the ABS on my Mazda 6 (my car, wife drives CX-9) be detrimental to it? I was thinking about just pulling the fuse before the next snow event and putting it back in afterwards. Im sure the ABS light will turn on, but otherwise? Thanks!
 
hey denny,
I got caught up with your question, definitively I have driven several times in snow and freezing contiditions and its true that at very slow speeds its even better not to have abs , but that is in some not all snow and ice conditions, when in ice abs will do in conjunction to other electronic devices like stability control..etc not to loose control or at least help you until lost of control is inevitable something that wont happen when the abs is disabled. On the other hand , defusing the abs might also defuse other devices, so be sure abs is alone on the circuit ( not probable) and as it is a fact that what you are claiming is only in one precise condition , abs will help you in almost any situation. my advice? drive slower on extreme conditions and take ur precautions, I wouldn't defuse the abs .
 
Thanks for your reply. I didnt think about traction control and stability control. I can certainly live without TC but stability can be handy. Except when I pull up on the e-brake going around corners...
 
dennyd75 said:
You all seem like a smart bunch so let me post a hypothetical question. First a little background l:

Last summer we bought our daughter her first car, a 2002 Honda Accord. Unbeknownst to me at the time, it does not have antilock brakes.

Fast forward to earlier this winter, I drive the Accord during a snow event and I realized that, while I do consider ABS to be a good and important safety feature, they suck on snow and ice. Non-ABS actually brakes better in those conditions, specifically at slow (neighborhood and parking lot) speeds as it allows the brakes to work. ABS just keeps pumping the brakes to keep them from locking up, which is (to me) not particularly appealing at these lower speeds.

So now my question: would turning off the ABS on my Mazda 6 (my car, wife drives CX-9) be detrimental to it? I was thinking about just pulling the fuse before the next snow event and putting it back in afterwards. Im sure the ABS light will turn on, but otherwise? Thanks!
Click to expand...

ABS is not supposed to give you shorter stopping distances. By preventing brake lock up, it allows you more control--you can't steer if your front brakes are locked up. If you disable ABS, and you get in a situation where the brakes lock up and you can't steer, it's going to be worse than just driving slower when it's slick to give yourself a longer stopping distance.
 
I can't say for sure if turning off the ABS would be detrimental or not on these cars. But in my opinion, I don't believe that it would hurt anything. I haven't tried this in a car, but I have done it on a motorcycle. I have a bike that has ABS, and I've wired in a kill switch for the ABS (Basically fools the system into thinking there is an ABS error, and it shuts itself off). I use it when riding off-road because ABS can be downright dangerous in loose off-road conditions at speed. I've had this switch for about 6 years now and when I use it, no ABS. Otherwise, the ABS works as it's intended. So if it hasn't developed an issue yet, I doubt it ever will. Needless to say, YMMV.
 
Tex nailed it. Keep ABS for the added control it offers. ABS only begins to work when a tire is slipping on the surface. If you don't make them slip, ABS does nothing. And, buy better tires that grip better. If the tires don't grip, you have nothing.
 
14 yrs ago I had a Toyota vehicle without ABS and stability control...I had a few instances back then where vehicle spun around and lost control. Fast forward and modern vehicles pretty much have these safety systems as standard and boy do they really help when you need them and if used properly. Disabling ABS is a bad idea simply put it...I've lived in snowy climates for past 15yrs and the best way to stop shorter distances is to equip vehicle with proper tires for the condition and apply Threshold braking (gradually applying pressure on the brake pedal) which I also learned from an advanced and professional safety driving instructor vs. slamming the brakes and letting ABS do its thing...
 
Good points in this thread (tires, tires, tires) but the criteria to judge the value of TCS for each driver will vary.

For an inexperienced driver that never learned how to pump brakes and steer properly, ABS/TCS can save them in dicey braking situations where locked wheels would cause any number of scary results. OTOH, I was once hit by an idiot young driver who simply jammed their brakes on in the rain rather than simply steering around me using the other empty lane (yes I didn't see them when I pulled out so 50% my bad), but I digress.

For a veteran driver like me, ABS/TCS and all the other auto-braking systems tend to piss me off about 50-75% of the time. These systems almost never aggravate me when stopping, but when the f'ing TCS decides to kick in as I am pulling out in traffic and slows me down in front of someone, I am not pleased.

Before someone tries to tell me I would have just been spinning my wheels anyway without the system, don't bother - sometimes spinning is desirable.

The scenario goes as follows. I step on the gas and the drive wheel spins a bit in snow, on a slick pavement patch, or a white paint line on the street (think crosswalk) that doesn't have the same friction as the normal street surface.

Instead of the TCS letting up in the half second or less it takes me to move 6" and past the offending spot, the system goes through a pre-determined timed cycle of braking that is way way too long. It does this even if you immediately let up on the gas. On several occasions this has left me in jeopardy of being hit by another vehicle who is now faced with a merging/turning car that has suddenly slowed down to a crawl in front of them for no reason. TCS replaced spinning I could control with panic braking I can not control - thanks!

Clearly Mazda knows about this and is why the TCS-off button exists. Of course I usually forget to push the damned thing and am left swearing and praying. It would be nice if it stayed off once pushed, but it comes back on quickly after a certain time or speed is reached. Because I want it on during braking, I don't pull the fuse.

BTW, I have driven other vehicles with much better systems that are smarter and less aggressive so YMMV.

For an inexperienced driver, I would leave TCS alone but also take them out to an empty parking lot in the rain and snow and teach them what slipping and sliding are like with/without TCS.

And yes, buy great tires and slow down.
 
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dennyd75 said:
You all seem like a smart bunch so let me post a hypothetical question. First a little background l:

Last summer we bought our daughter her first car, a 2002 Honda Accord. Unbeknownst to me at the time, it does not have antilock brakes.

Fast forward to earlier this winter, I drive the Accord during a snow event and I realized that, while I do consider ABS to be a good and important safety feature, they suck on snow and ice. Non-ABS actually brakes better in those conditions, specifically at slow (neighborhood and parking lot) speeds as it allows the brakes to work. ABS just keeps pumping the brakes to keep them from locking up, which is (to me) not particularly appealing at these lower speeds.

So now my question: would turning off the ABS on my Mazda 6 (my car, wife drives CX-9) be detrimental to it? I was thinking about just pulling the fuse before the next snow event and putting it back in afterwards. I’m sure the ABS light will turn on, but otherwise? Thanks!
Click to expand...


The coefficient of friction drives every concern relative to braking and it governs ever physical aspect of stopping your vehicle using brakes. Essentially, the theory is that ABS extends the time within which maximum coefficient of friction is available. The antithesis of that would be the net effect of removing ABS from the equation. Ergo, you contract the time within which maximum coefficient of friction is available and by doing so, you increase the time where less than optimal friction remains in the equation. You have to do the math on your own. You have to decide what you want to sacrifice the least.

I won't tell anyone what they should do under the circumstances of your question. However, I will tell you that I would NEVER make dysfunctional the ABS in any vehicle I own under any circumstances including but not limited to wet, dry or icy road conditions. There are better approaches to dealing with such a problem for me personally, as opposed to reverting such advancements in automotive technology for what could be diminished benefits at best. Namely, a very good set of Winter Tires! That would be the very first variable in the coefficient of friction equation that I "tweaked." The second variable would be the amount of braking torque/force I applied to the wheels as a matter of routine practice and the overall operating speeds I maintained under such regular conditions as well.

If I had a choice between AWD and RWD (only) in the snow and ice, my personal choice would always be AWD all the time and without question. However, little would matter if I failed to dress all four corners with an appropriate set of rubber shoes - for the occasion. In other words, if it is a Black Tie Event, then I wear a Tux. If I'm headed to the Gym, then its Nike and Columbia with wicking tech. If I'm going to drive in the snow intentionally and I have a choice, then its Winter Tires, AWD, greatly reduced speeds, lighter/shorter braking techniques, constant turn rates where/if possible and eyes as far down the road ahead of me as humanly possible.

Disabling my ABS would be a distant non-starter for me, personally. But I'm just one dude with one opinion.
 
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Thaumaturge said:
Good points in this thread (tires, tires, tires) but the criteria to judge the value of TCS for each driver will vary.

For an inexperienced driver that never learned how to pump brakes and steer properly, ABS/TCS can save them in dicey braking situations where locked wheels would cause any number of scary results. OTOH, I was once hit by an idiot young driver who simply jammed their brakes on in the rain rather than simply steering around me using the other empty lane (yes I didn't see them when I pulled out so 50% my bad), but I digress.

For a veteran driver like me, ABS/TCS and all the other auto-braking systems tend to piss me off about 50-75% of the time. These systems almost never aggravate me when stopping, but when the f'ing TCS decides to kick in as I am pulling out in traffic and slows me down in front of someone, I am not pleased.

Before someone tries to tell me I would have just been spinning my wheels anyway without the system, don't bother - sometimes spinning is desirable.

The scenario goes as follows. I step on the gas and the drive wheel spins a bit in snow, on a slick pavement patch, or a white paint line on the street (think crosswalk) that doesn't have the same friction as the normal street surface.

Instead of the TCS letting up in the half second or less it takes me to move 6" and past the offending spot, the system goes through a pre-determined timed cycle of braking that is way way too long. It does this even if you immediately let up on the gas. On several occasions this has left me in jeopardy of being hit by another vehicle who is now faced with a merging/turning car that has suddenly slowed down to a crawl in front of them for no reason. TCS replaced spinning I could control with panic braking I can not control - thanks!

Clearly Mazda knows about this and is why the TCS-off button exists. Of course I usually forget to push the damned thing and am left swearing and praying. It would be nice if it stayed off once pushed, but it comes back on quickly after a certain time or speed is reached. Because I want it on during braking, I don't pull the fuse.

BTW, I have driven other vehicles with much better systems that are smarter and less aggressive so YMMV.

For an inexperienced driver, I would leave TCS alone but also take them out to an empty parking lot in the rain and snow and teach them what slipping and sliding are like with/without TCS.

And yes, buy great tires and slow down.
Click to expand...


In your area then maybe having AWD will be more beneficial esp when going and having winter tires during this season...also helps when stopping on ice/snow.
 
tekz said:
In your area then maybe having AWD will be more beneficial esp when going and having winter tires during this season...also helps when stopping on ice/snow.
Click to expand...

I'm hoping you're baiting me like a bridge-minder with that silly AWD comment. LOL

In case you're not, AWD does absolutely NOTHING to help you stop in any weather. In fact, AWD increases the mass of the vehicle which will make your stops longer. One word explains it all - physics. Snow tires OTOH are always a winner in the great white north.
 
That's why there is a difference with a distinction between Braking and Handling. They are two entirely different things, yet very much connected in the Vehicle Dynamics. AWD is primarily for Handling. Tires are primarily for Braking through the coefficient of friction equation coupled to the weight shift equation. They are all connected functions and concepts. Ignoring one while glorifying the other could result in very unwanted handling and braking characteristics at minimum. Mass is a scalar quantity and cannot be increased through a sub-function of vehicle dynamics, AWD. That's like saying the mass of an aircraft can be increased through a sub-function of lift, drag. It makes no sense other than to cause confusion where clarity is otherwise the norm.

The AWD/Appropriate Tires combination combine to add stability to the overall driving dynamic. There are vertical, horizontal, lateral and transverse forces at play in vehicle dynamics that are more easily tamed with AWD and appropriate tires than without. That's just basic Engineering and Physics 101. All of those forces are vectored quantities and subject to variability based primarily on vehicle speed (where its weight remains relatively fixed).

There is real Engineering (not internet forum engineering) that goes into producing an automobile and I think the guys over at Mazda, Engineers whom I've spent a little time directing questions to at various events during the run up to the 2016 release; discussing everything from their Kodo design philosophy to the continual and ever evolving iSKYACTIV philosophy, simply got it right when they provided an AWD option for this particular platform.
 
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Thaumaturge said:
I'm hoping you're baiting me like a bridge-minder with that silly AWD comment. LOL

In case you're not, AWD does absolutely NOTHING to help you stop in any weather. In fact, AWD increases the mass of the vehicle which will make your stops longer. One word explains it all - physics. Snow tires OTOH are always a winner in the great white north.
Click to expand...

Not baiting you into anything but rather just making a suggestion that isn't biased but based from proven real driving experience. and yes am aware AWD does nothing when stopping so no need to lecture me on that...in case you didn't notice i said when going/moving. The stopping i mentioned refers to winter tires not AWD... You have your beliefs on AWD vs FWD (silly to you but not to me so lets agree to disagree but I get frustrated with getting my FWD vehicle to get going in winter conditions thats why i prefer AWD) and may not see the benefits of AWD in winter conditions but I currently drive both vehicles with one having AWD and other just FWD and can tell you that despite the extra weight of an AWD I'd still take it over a FWD due to the benefits...the benefits added to the drive/handling coupled with winter tires in these conditions outweigh the penalty in weight, stopping distance and fuel economy...I have taken advanced prof driving courses in the past focusing on driving/handling, accelerating, emergency braking and evasive steering actions in emergency situations and of course the proper use of safety systems like ABS and I've used it a few times in years of driving so I really found the use and benefits of ABS...there's a reason it's installed in most if not all modern vehicles
 
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CJ4 said:
That's why there is a difference with a distinction between Breaking and Handling. They are two entirely different things, yet very much connected in the Vehicle Dynamics. AWD is primarily for Handling. Tires are primarily for Breaking through the coefficient of friction equation coupled to the weight shift equation. They are all connected functions and concepts. Ignoring one while glorifying the other could result in very unwanted handling and breaking characteristics at minimum. Mass is a scalar quantity and cannot be increased through a sub-function of vehicle dynamics, AWD. That's like saying the mass of an aircraft can be increased through a sub-function of lift, drag. It makes no sense other than to cause confusion where clarity is otherwise the norm.

The AWD/Appropriate Tires combination combine to add stability to the overall driving dynamic. There are vertical, horizontal, lateral and transverse forces at play in vehicle dynamics that are more easily tamed with AWD and appropriate tires than without. That's just basic Engineering and Physics 101. All of those forces are vectored quantities and subject to variability based primarily on vehicle speed (where its weight remains relatively fixed).

There is real Engineering (not internet forum engineering) that goes into producing an automobile and I think the guys over at Mazda, Engineers whom I've spent a little time directing questions to at various events during the run up to the 2016 release; discussing everything from their Kodo design philosophy to the continual and ever evolving iSKYACTIV philosophy, simply got it right when they provided an AWD option for this particular platform.
Click to expand...

Braking.
 
Bluechip said:
Try getting a car that doesn't do model years. My wife's car has rolling changes throughout the year. Her's is a late 2016 Telsa Model S, so she got the newer front end, 6 cup holders, center console, and 2nd generation Auto-pilot. Before that you only got 2 cupholders, no center console and either no autopilot or the 1st gen. She just missed out on the option of an all glass roof and now there is no solid roof option, improved seats and a couple of other items. At some point you have to stop paying attention or it will drive you nuts.
Click to expand...

tex2670 said:
So, other than your Tesla example (which, by the way, you referred to with a model year), name a car that "doesn't do model years".
Click to expand...
CJ4 said:
"doesn't do model years."

We can play this game all day long, English Teacher.
Click to expand...
The "Out of Context Game"? I know, because that's your second best game, next to "Use Technical Words In Long Run On Posts To Sound Really Smart Instead of Like an Internet Troll Game", and right ahead of the "Deflect Response to Something Unrelated Game".
 
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CJ4 said:
All typos corrected. Thanks English Teacher.
Click to expand...

Hey--just helping you out. All your very official sounding engineering speak isn't really going to be too credible if you can't even spell "braking", right?

You're welcome. ;)
 
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Well I decided against giving it a try, you all convinced me. While I do not like the longer slow speed stopping distances in snow, I do really appreciate the higher speed stopping stability and steering control in panic conditions. It was a fun little thinking exercise!

Regarding winter tires: the stock Falken tires on my wifess CX-9 do not do very well in snowy/icy conditions. However we love them in warmer/drier conditions. So we will probably keep those around for warm weather use and buy a second set of wheels to makenswapping winter tires simpler for me. The 9 should be pretty unstoppable in winter conditions with AWD and winter tires.

My 6 Im going to do the same but maybe get a sportier set of rims/tires for the summer time.
 
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