Push Button Start Issue

V

Vancouver_MTB

Member
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2017 CX-9 GS-L
Not sure if this issue is specific to the Mazda CX-9 or if it is a common thing amongst any vehicle that has a push button start. A few times I have accidentally turned off the car while it is still in gear and not in park. Once the car is off it starts rolling very slowly (slowly enough that you barely realize it) - caused me to almost hit the car right in front of me before I hit the brake at the very last second. I would have thought there would have been some sort of automatic override where turning the car off automatically puts the car in park or alternatively, give you an error message and not allow you to turn off the car unless it is in park. If I remember correctly back to my previous vehicle that had a key - I'm pretty sure you couldn't pull out the key unless it was in park.

Anyone have any insight on this?
 
Vancouver_MTB said:
Not sure if this issue is specific to the Mazda CX-9 or if it is a common thing amongst any vehicle that has a push button start. A few times I have accidentally turned off the car while it is still in gear and not in park. Once the car is off it starts rolling very slowly (slowly enough that you barely realize it) - caused me to almost hit the car right in front of me before I hit the brake at the very last second. I would have thought there would have been some sort of automatic override where turning the car off automatically puts the car in park or alternatively, give you an error message and not allow you to turn off the car unless it is in park. If I remember correctly back to my previous vehicle that had a key - I'm pretty sure you couldn't pull out the key unless it was in park.

Anyone have any insight on this?
Click to expand...

Diff manufacturers have diff programming from one another...some you won't be able to turn off engine even if car is running and is in gear or moving while others are diff. like shutting off the engine even if it's in gear and in motion. Though I have never heard of a car going into park or stopping by itself if you press the push button start even by accident. All I can say is to never press that button unless you are really turning off the engine when parked and there's a reason why that button is located in most cases on the upper portion of the dash. If you are pressing the button by accident then find ways to prevent from hitting it for safety's sake. Manufacturers have disclaimers that will prevent them for being blamed in the event of accidents because of the push button start being turned off while moving. I know that there should be safety measures in place but like I said diff manufacturers have diff programming.
 
Same as with a key you could turn the engine off and then take your foot off the brake. Try to idiot proof basic things like this and you can have all kinds of other unintended consequences. What if you had unintended acceleration and the car decided when you turned the engine off to slam on the brakes? At what speed does it decide to do that? Take some personal responsibility here...
 
Just to clarify - I was trying to park and I did have my foot on the brake and turned off the car and then released my foot. Since the surface I was on was basically flat the car didn't have a sudden movement when I released my foot from the brake (which is why I didn't notice it was still in gear). It just crept forward ever so slowly and I only noticed it was moving 10 seconds later when I saw that I was like an inch from the car in front of me. Obviously this is a "user error" but I think this is an easy mistake to make and I think the fact that there is no warning signal to prevent this type of situation is an oversight (seeing that new vehicles these days seem to have warnings for anything and everything).

On a side note - this is my first car with the push button start and I am failing to see how this is a useful feature. Now I have to use the cup holder to store my keys rather than "storing" them in the ignition...
 
Vancouver_MTB said:
Not sure if this issue is specific to the Mazda CX-9 or if it is a common thing amongst any vehicle that has a push button start. A few times I have accidentally turned off the car while it is still in gear and not in park. Once the car is off it starts rolling very slowly (slowly enough that you barely realize it) - caused me to almost hit the car right in front of me before I hit the brake at the very last second. I would have thought there would have been some sort of automatic override where turning the car off automatically puts the car in park or alternatively, give you an error message and not allow you to turn off the car unless it is in park. If I remember correctly back to my previous vehicle that had a key - I'm pretty sure you couldn't pull out the key unless it was in park.

Anyone have any insight on this?
Click to expand...

There's only an automatic override if you have an electronic gearshift. I have one in my BMW, and if I turn the car off or open the door while the car is moving at slow speed, the car is placed into park. But with a gearshift like in Mazda, it functions the way the gearshift always has--the only difference is with a mechanical key, you couldn't turn the ignition to off with the gearshift in "D".

Bottom line is the car can't do everything for the driver; the driver still needs to think about what he/she is doing.

Vancouver_MTB said:
On a side note - this is my first car with the push button start and I am failing to see how this is a useful feature. Now I have to use the cup holder to store my keys rather than "storing" them in the ignition...
Click to expand...
Why does the key ever come out of your pocket? That's the usefulness.
 
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tex2670 said:
There's only an automatic override if you have an electronic gearshift. I have one in my BMW, and if I turn the car off and open the door, the car is placed into park. But with a gearshift like in Mazda, it functions the way the gearshift always has--the only difference is with a mechanical key, you couldn't turn the ignition to off with the gearshift in "D".

Bottom line is the car can't do everything for the driver; the driver still needs to think about what he/she is doing.

Why does the key ever come out of your pocket? That's the usefulness.
Click to expand...

The 'bottom line' comment is very evasive... This clearly is a bug (oversight) in Mazda's implementation... this is 2017... a car should be able to protect you from such a situation by either a) not letting you do it b) beep and warn.... My 10 year old accord does not let me take the keys out if i've left the gear lever in a clearly inappropriate position. Just as you described...

I had the same dangerous situation of the CX-9 rolling away when i accidentally turned it off in Reverse (thinking I had moved stick to park)..... This is something you better expect from a 2017 car. Especially one targeted at busy parents, who are more likely to suffer lapse of concenteration... I'll be contacting mazda regarding this
 
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7rh said:
The 'bottom line' comment is very evasive... This clearly is a bug (oversight) in Mazda's implementation... this is 2017... a car should be able to protect you from such a situation by either a) not letting you do it b) beep and warn.... My 10 year old accord does not let me take the keys out if i've left the gear lever in a clearly inappropriate position. Just as you described...

I had the same dangerous situation of the CX-9 rolling away when i accidentally turned it off in Reverse (thinking I had moved stick to park)..... This is something you better expect from a 2017 car. Especially one targeted at busy parents, who are more likely to suffer lapse of concenteration... I'll be contacting mazda regarding this
Click to expand...

And the car should warn you if you forgot your kids in the car; and the car should automatically shut itself off if you don't remember to turn off the ignition; and the car should auto lock itself if you forget to; etc., etc.--I've seen all the excuses before.

Frankly, I think there are TOO many things that cars do today automatically that make people stop using their brains to think about what they are doing--auto headlights is number one. Most aren't sensitive enough to come on in the fog--so so so many people drive around in dense fog without lights on, which is incredibly dangerous.

iOS 11 for iPhone now has a setting so you can turn off alerts while driving. People need to have the phone protect them from reading messages while driving--how about just taking personal responsibly, and exercising some self control to check in 10 minutes when you get where you are going? Why do I need my phone to protect me against myself?

"Thinking" you put the car in park? Newsflash--there's a little spot in the instrument panel that tells you exactly what gear you are in. Take a 1/2 second and look at it. I've had keyless ignition for 10 years, and never once, as a "busy parent" have I ever had this issue come up.

I agree with @Gunbuster above--people need to have personal responsibility for their actions or inactions. Blaming forgetfulness on being a "busy parent" is just BS--everyone is busy, and juggling many balls; it's not a crutch--it's life. IMO, if remembering to put a car in PARK before you get out is too hard, sell your car and take an Uber.
 
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I can totally relate to this. Sometimes I wonder why I need to floor the car in order to get it moving. Then when I get to my destination and see my rear brakes glowing red and smoking then i realized I forgot to release the parking brake. Manufacturer should automatically release the brake when you floor the car. Totally unsafe and unacceptable.
 
Vancouver_MTB said:
Not sure if this issue is specific to the Mazda CX-9 or if it is a common thing amongst any vehicle that has a push button start. A few times I have accidentally turned off the car while it is still in gear and not in park. Once the car is off it starts rolling very slowly (slowly enough that you barely realize it) - caused me to almost hit the car right in front of me before I hit the brake at the very last second. I would have thought there would have been some sort of automatic override where turning the car off automatically puts the car in park or alternatively, give you an error message and not allow you to turn off the car unless it is in park. If I remember correctly back to my previous vehicle that had a key - I'm pretty sure you couldn't pull out the key unless it was in park.

Anyone have any insight on this?
Click to expand...



I see your point, but not really an issue for me. When I drove a keyed ignition switch, I never reached up and turned the key to the off position. So, it would never dawn on me to actually reach up and press the start/stop button while the vehicle was in gear and moving. :)

 
7rh said:
I have and encourage others who are concerned regarding this to file a complaint with NHTSA

https://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/VehicleComplaint/
Click to expand...


Does a keyed ignition switch allow the driver to turn the ignition to the off position while the engine is on and the vehicle is in gear - would my question, if I were an NHTSA engineer taking on such a question.

The only problem I've had with a Start/Stop button lasted for about 14 days. Solving the problem was a simple matter of developing new muscle memory. I had never owned a Start/Stop button vehicle before my CX-9 Signature. So, upon entering the vehicle my right hand would unconsciously start reaching up towards the ignition switch for the purpose of inserting a key in to a hole. There was no hole and it was funny the first few times.

Upon parking the vehicle after arriving at my destination, I again unconsciously began reaching for the ignition switch to turn the key to the off position. There was no key. And, that too was funny the first few times.

However, I never reached up and pressed a button because that was never part of my neurological programming over decades of driving with a keyed ignition switch. Rotating and Pressing are of course, two different bio-mechanical processes.

After about two weeks with the new ignition setup, I stopped reaching for a physical key. I was developing a new neuro pathway in my brain. Of course, we call that simply, learning a new physical habit.
 
Cessna CJ4 said:
Does a keyed ignition switch allow the driver to turn the ignition to the off position while the engine is on and the vehicle is in gear - would my question, if I were an NHTSA engineer taking on such a question.
Click to expand...

Not one that is functioning properly.

I had an old Ford and an old Saturn where that feature broke, and you could remove the key with the car in "D".
 
tex2670 said:
And the car should warn you if you forgot your kids in the car; and the car should automatically shut itself off if you don't remember to turn off the ignition; etc., etc.--I've seen all the excuses before.

Frankly, I think there are TOO many things that cars do today automatically that make people stop using their brains to think about what they are doing--auto headlights is number one. Most aren't sensitive enough to come on in the fog--so so so many people drive around in dense fog without lights on, which is incredibly dangerous.

iOS 11 for iPhone now has a setting so you can turn off alerts while driving. People need to have the phone protect them from reading messages while driving--how about just taking personal responsibly, and exercising some self control to check in 10 minutes when you get where you are going? Why do I need my phone to protect me against myself?

"Thinking" you put the car in park? Newsflash--there's a little spot in the instrument panel that tells you exactly what gear you are in. Take a 1/2 second and look at it. I've had keyless ignition for 10 years, and never once, as a "busy parent" have I ever had this issue come up.

I agree with @Gunbuster above--people need to have personal responsibility for their actions or inactions. Blaming forgetfulness on being a "busy parent" is just BS--everyone is busy, and juggling many balls; it's not a crutch--it's life. IMO, if remembering to put a car in PARK before you get out is too hard, sell your car and take an Uber.
Click to expand...

You basically exaggerated my concern to make it outlandish... Does not invalidate my concern. Just fallacious mode of argument. Sound much like Someone unwilling to change with changing times. What I expect is pretty standard with other manufacturers... I'm not asking these guys to solve world hunger... It's not so tough to implement.


It's not about what I require due to personal preference rather is lacking when compared to the quasi standard of implementation by other manufacturers.


Get on with the times and stop judging what consumers are voting for with their wallets... That's why all manufactures are offering start stop and all other "fancy schmancy" auto headlamps. There is demand and times a changing friend
 
Cessna CJ4 said:
I see your point, but not really an issue for me. When I drove a keyed ignition switch, I never reached up and turned the key to the off position. So, it would never dawn on me to actually reach up and press the start/stop button while the vehicle was in gear and moving. :)

Click to expand...

Never dawned on me ever either. If you read my post. I was stopped and made a mistake in assuming I was in Park.

For all the folks who think confirming Park position before ignition off is a novel solution... Thanks Captain obvious.
 
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tex2670 said:
Not one that is functioning properly.

I had an old Ford and an old Saturn where that feature broke, and you could remove the key with the car in "D".
Click to expand...

Indeed, that would have been broke and a good candidate for NHTSA.
 
7rh said:
Never dawned on me ever either. If you read my post. I was stopped and made a mistake in assuming I was in Park.

For all the folks who think confirming Park position before ignition off is a novel solution... Thanks Captain obvious.
Click to expand...


Logically, the same question would apply: If in Drive and a keyed ignition switch is rotated to Off, what happens.

In all the vehicles I've owned, the engine shuts down, the vehicle remains in Drive and all powered components cease to function. Replacing the keyed ignition switch with a Start/Stop button won't change the equation.

So, I was wondering whether the NHTSA would conclude the same and simply send you a boilerplate letter in response basically concluding that no emergent or viable safety concern(s) had been raised.

Given the advent of the ECM/PCM and its variants (depending on OEM) could automobile manufacturers encode logic and mechanical/functional lockout for engine shutdown only when in Park? Sure, absolutely they could. Will the Federal Government require it by mandate? Right now, that's probably not going to happen unless an untold number of people start complaining to the government that they feared risk of serious injury to themselves and/or others because they inadvertently manage to always hit the Start/Stop button while their vehicle is in Drive, causing an unsafe condition as a direct result.

I was just thinking about this from the standpoint of what happens when the NHTSA opens the letter and reads it. I find the question and interesting one.

I would rather the NHTSA and OEMs alike, go to work on agreeing to Anti-Tailgating Laws being coupled to Anti-Tailgating technology. That would do a lot to save actual lives. Something like making the radar based distance control feature permanent, non-retractable and made a regulatory requirement. It would push traffic jams to the streets, deconflict our freeways and eradicate all collisions caused by people follow to closely. I'm all for sending that letter!
 
7rh said:
You basically exaggerated my concern to make it outlandish... Does not invalidate my concern. Just fallacious mode of argument. Sound much like Someone unwilling to change with changing times. What I expect is pretty standard with other manufacturers... I'm not asking these guys to solve world hunger... It's not so tough to implement.


It's not about what I require due to personal preference rather is lacking when compared to the quasi standard of implementation by other manufacturers.


Get on with the times and stop judging what consumers are voting for with their wallets... That's why all manufactures are offering start stop and all other "fancy schmancy" auto headlamps. There is demand and times a changing friend
Click to expand...

You can't handle remembering to put a car in park now that you have push button start, but I can't change with the times. I see.

You missed the point completely--I don't have a problem with auto headlamps; I leave my headlights in Auto all the time--except when the conditions warrant flipping the switch manually to ON. I have a problem with the stupidity of people who lose the ability to think since their headlight switch has the word "Auto" on it.

Pushing a 2-ton mass of glass and steel thru society is not a small responsibility. People still need to use their brains, alongside with the modern technology adding to that mass of glass and steel.

7rh said:
For all the folks who think confirming Park position before ignition off is a novel solution... Thanks Captain obvious.
Click to expand...

It's not a "novel solution". It's a basic step, taught the first day of Driver's Ed. And a responsibility of anyone driving a car. You are a "busy parent"--you owe it to kids playing in your driveway to make sure, rather than "assume."
 
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tex2670 said:
You can't handle remembering to put a car in park now that you have push button start, but I can't change with the times. I see.

You missed the point completely--I don't have a problem with auto headlamps; I leave my headlights in Auto all the time--except when the conditions warrant flipping the switch manually to ON. I have a problem with the stupidity of people who lose the ability to think since their headlight switch has the word "Auto" on it.

Pushing a 2-ton mass of glass and steel thru society is not a small responsibility. People still need to use their brains, alongside with the modern technology adding to that mass of glass and steel.



It's not a "novel solution". It's a basic step, taught the first day of Driver's Ed. And a responsibility of anyone driving a car. You are a "busy parent"--you owe it to kids playing in your driveway to make sure, rather than "assume."
Click to expand...

Good job on ignoring my entire point and instead questioning my mental capability. Bravo! Myopic much?

I'll be ignoring your replies. You have not contributed to this topic much more than personal attacks and questioning my capabilities.... and judging those who differ. You Sir come across an old cloud of unwanted gas. Enjoy your high horse.

Those who actually want to discuss this issue, my point is that mazda basically lazied their way thru this implementation when compared to What rest of the market provides. "Be more mindful" is a pretty lazy/evasive response in my opinion. a 7 seater is assuredly aimed at a family and they have dropped the ball in this regard.
 
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I do not see any product malfunctioning here.

How is this function any different than if you accidentally bumped the KEY on a keyed ignition, and turned the motor off?

Do you know of any other vehicles that will forcibly apply the brakes while rolling and pressing the START/STOP button?
 
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