Brake Upgrade

I am indeed very happy with the performance of the OEM brakes on my bmw. They are quite overachieving in terms of performance for the average daily driver and are very well suited to aggressive driving with excellent pedal feel and ridiculously good stopping power. One thing I really like about these brakes is that taking a peek through your wheel, you can easily see how much pad you have leftand the rotor surface is very easy to inspect as well. Ive tried checking how much pad is left on the Mazda and it wasnt as easy... These brakes are so much more messy then Mazdas, but the performance and stopping power is exponentially higher. It seems like everyones Mazda brakes are wearing at different paces, but they seem to last long. Ours still work just fine.

Ive read somewhere that in place where salt is used during the winter, apparently this causes your rear brakes to wear out quicker or something? I dont remember the details, but I just remember its important to regularly service your caliper pins with grease if you live in an area that sees salt during the winter. This will prolong the life of your rear brakes.

Something Ive been noticing more and more lately and really dissapoints me is a large number of mechanics these days seemingly being lazy and not putting brakes on properly. Ive seen it on more then one car where the rotor is put on crooked which results in reduced stopping power and this terrible uneven wear which slashed the life of your brakes considerably. The original brakes on my BMW were so unevenly worn, the outer rotor was completely gone while the inner bit still had onenty of life left... anyways, my mechanic managed to salvage my rear brakes by resurfacing the rotor to make it even. the caliper pin needed to be lubed which was causing the rear brakes not to perform very well and some rust built up on the rotor. Needless to say, when all the brakes was serviced it made a HUGE difference. I recommend checking the brakes every 60k in salty or snowy areas...

So which brake method do you think is best overall, the Japanese way, or the German way where the rotor is sacrificed (to keep it clean for better contact to the pad? If I read your post correctly)

I mean, mazdas brakes work just fine, stopping power is at least proportionate to the grippy Yokohama tires I have on the car, the pedal is easy to modulate and the amount of dust is literally nothing compared to the German cars..

Both Mazda and Toyota caught a cold with long life pads, it cost them thousands in warranty claims. If a customer complains about brake judder, they have to stand the cost as it is a fault. If a customer wears a set of very excitable pads out in 6 months, he stands the cost! Both Mazda and Toyota have a kind of half way hybrid now that gives a reasonable balance and that is what you are experiencing on your 6. Which way is best? Well first you have to consider what causes wear. It is a direct effect of heat. In the first 12 months, I wore more than half my pad thickness away on my 2016.5 but I was happy with that because my journey to work is over some very long steep hills. The pads are bonded together with a resin system that degrades with heat - exponentially. At normal" city driving temperature it gives reasonable wear but if you double the temperature you start squaring up the wear and by about the time they get towards glowing, the wear is off the scale. That is why CX-5 owners see such a wide range of pad wear. It depends what you want. If you want really good performance and high friction you are almost certainly going to sacrifice life. Miss Daisy, pottering around barely getting any temperature would actually be better with the German pads as she can bring her standard pads to a standstill - friction material MUST see temperature to condition the pad surface. A sales rep who drives hard might be better with the Jap stuff as he will keep it active. Its horses for courses.
 
Anchorman and GJ-Molestor: So this is what I see all the time on this and other forums with regard to replacement brake disc prices. So how cheap is "that cheap"? Give me a price and a source for OE quality (and I'm not talking some crap Chinese knock-off) discs for a CX-5. Whenever I've checked I see maybe $35/ea. Why would I throw away a perfectly good known OEM quality part that has plenty of life left in it and I can have resurfaced for $10-15/ea for a critical safety replacement component of unknown quality?
 
Anchorman and GJ-Molestor: So this is what I see all the time on this and other forums with regard to replacement brake disc prices. So how cheap is "that cheap"? Give me a price and a source for OE quality (and I'm not talking some crap Chinese knock-off) discs for a CX-5. Whenever I've checked I see maybe $35/ea. Why would I throw away a perfectly good known OEM quality part that has plenty of life left in it and I can have resurfaced for $10-15/ea for a critical safety replacement component of unknown quality?

....and it might be a good enough option p1 but it depends on what they are like. If the disc is worn in addition to warped, you can soon be at the disc thickness limit. Take care to measure in the centre of the disc as the disc wears more at the outer edge as it travels faster. I think $35 isn’t bad for discs but I don’t know what it costs to skim them?? I would have though I could change a set of discs and pads quicker than somebody can skim a set but I stand to be corrected. If you’ve found skimming to be viable I accept that too ;-)
 
BTW, I tend to buy Pagid discs because they are easy to get here and they are coated with Dacromet. They are 55 here which is perhaps $65 each. Mine don’t need skimming because I work them so I would perhaps expect to change my discs at 36000 miles or 3 years.
 
Both Mazda and Toyota caught a cold with long life pads, it cost them thousands in warranty claims. If a customer complains about brake judder, they have to stand the cost as it is a fault. If a customer wears a set of very excitable pads out in 6 months, he stands the cost! Both Mazda and Toyota have a kind of half way hybrid now that gives a reasonable balance and that is what you are experiencing on your 6. Which way is best? Well first you have to consider what causes wear. It is a direct effect of heat. In the first 12 months, I wore more than half my pad thickness away on my 2016.5 but I was happy with that because my journey to work is over some very long steep hills. The pads are bonded together with a resin system that degrades with heat - exponentially. At normal" city driving temperature it gives reasonable wear but if you double the temperature you start squaring up the wear and by about the time they get towards glowing, the wear is off the scale. That is why CX-5 owners see such a wide range of pad wear. It depends what you want. If you want really good performance and high friction you are almost certainly going to sacrifice life. Miss Daisy, pottering around barely getting any temperature would actually be better with the German pads as she can bring her standard pads to a standstill - friction material MUST see temperature to condition the pad surface. A sales rep who drives hard might be better with the Jap stuff as he will keep it active. Its horses for courses.

Wouldnt the German Stuff be more suitable for aggressive driving? Or the material on the Japanese pads is better?

Anchorman and GJ-Molestor: So this is what I see all the time on this and other forums with regard to replacement brake disc prices. So how cheap is "that cheap"? Give me a price and a source for OE quality (and I'm not talking some crap Chinese knock-off) discs for a CX-5. Whenever I've checked I see maybe $35/ea. Why would I throw away a perfectly good known OEM quality part that has plenty of life left in it and I can have resurfaced for $10-15/ea for a critical safety replacement component of unknown quality?

I 100% agree with you, but if there is not much rotor surface left, which becomes even less after you resurface the rotor, I think it would make sense to just install new rotors unless you got tons of life left in the old ones. Youll salvage your old brakes, but then spend money and waste time taking the brakes apart again when its time for fresh ones.
 
Getting new rotors and making only one trip to the parts store, or no trips if I use mail order, and being able to have a drivable car after one session, is worth the $30 or so more over having the rotors turned.
 
Thats “true” Japanese friction material (sometimes made under license in the USA) that does that. They hate black dust with a passion and tend to use very expensive fillers and friction modifiers to prevent it. The material lasts longer than anything we at Ferodo or the other European manufacturer could come near to but it has a problem. The wear rate is low enough that it doesn’t self clean and that is the black on the disc I was on about above. Some of the material and wear debris get transferred onto the disc and as it is often patchy, there are times when the pads work on the disc and times when it travels over transferred friction material. The result is known as DTV (disc thickness variation) so not warped as such but thick and thin as the pads travel. This was first recognised by Ferodo back in the early 90s when Ford were having problems with the Sierra. The answer is to bulk up the abrasive which effectively sands the discs clean and keeps them dead true. You will never get a BMW, Audi or Merc with warped discs unless they have been stood for months. They use super aggressive pads which keep the discs very bright but will wear them out. The discs are seen as sacrificial but the performance stays good.
So it thickens up when it gets hot and then thins down as it cools, then CVR-Continuously Variable Rotor? Because steering-wheel shake is directly related to how how the brakes are. When cold, none. After 1 stop from 70 at a brisk rate, lots of shake, drive a few miles to cool it off, and no shake. How does that work?

I'm just poking, they are warped, man. Sorry. BTDT. They cannot be turned. Tried it like 3 times on my 370Z, and after stop #1 they were right back to their old tricks.
 
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Certainly turning is an option but as the price of discs has come down and how easy it is to change them, I wonder if it is worth it. Really, if discs are to be turned, they should be done installed on the hub or at least in a fixture that allows both sides to be done without unmounting them.

Exactly. Just replace them. If you turn them it won't fix the warp, it will just make the surface true, but the warp is inherent to the rotor and once you heat it up again, it will be immediately evident.
 
So it thickens up when it gets hot and then thins down as it cools, then CVR-Continuously Variable Rotor? Because steering-wheel shake is directly related to how how the brakes are. When cold, none. After 1 stop from 70 at a brisk rate, lots of shake, drive a few miles to cool it off, and no shake. How does that work?

I'm just poking, they are warped, man. Sorry. BTDT. They cannot be turned. Tried it like 3 times on my 370Z, and after stop #1 they were right back to their old tricks.

Heat does not effect warped rotors real-time like that.

If your brakes have a mild warp in them, you will only notice the vibration from high speed. Try driving at 70mph for about 5-10 minutes so the brakes are cool and then try stopping. They will still vibrate.
 
Heat does not effect warped rotors real-time like that.

If your brakes have a mild warp in them, you will only notice the vibration from high speed. Try driving at 70mph for about 5-10 minutes so the brakes are cool and then try stopping. They will still vibrate.

No, they don't. They stop fine for the first stop from 70, and then they will vibrate significantly on subsequent stops until I drive for 5-10 minutes. I have owned numerous cars that did this, and FINALLY when I forwarded the problem up the chain to NNA they got a GT-R tech and gave him my car for 3 days. They eventually pinned the issue down: Over-torquing tire lug nuts and resulting warp of the rotor. After that, they hand-torqued the lug nuts, and for another 10K miles (sold the car), I had ZERO issues. However, asking for technicians to do this on a CX5 is...a bit much. So I plan to just replace them as a matter of course and call it price of the game.

Everyone wants to talk about pad deposits, but when you can spin the b**** up on a machine and watch it wobble...and when it gets hot, it gets WAY worse.
 
No, they don't. They stop fine for the first stop from 70, and then they will vibrate significantly on subsequent stops until I drive for 5-10 minutes. I have owned numerous cars that did this, and FINALLY when I forwarded the problem up the chain to NNA they got a GT-R tech and gave him my car for 3 days. They eventually pinned the issue down: Over-torquing tire lug nuts and resulting warp of the rotor. After that, they hand-torqued the lug nuts, and for another 10K miles (sold the car), I had ZERO issues. However, asking for technicians to do this on a CX5 is...a bit much. So I plan to just replace them as a matter of course and call it price of the game.

Everyone wants to talk about pad deposits, but when you can spin the b**** up on a machine and watch it wobble...and when it gets hot, it gets WAY worse.

I do hope you realize that 70 to 0 stops are exactly what warped your rotors? These arent no German OEM brakes my friend..
 
Heat doesn't warp rotors initially. Overtorquing does. Our local brake expert can confirm, I'm sure.

If you think of a warped disc as being like a Pringle, it rarely happens these days, it's nearly always DTV if you set about measuring with some fancy gear. Disc technology is a subject all on its own and when you think about what they do - they can stop a fully loaded vehicle from high spread to zero time and time again without falling to bits. What used to cause warping was very much down to how they were made or designed. When they were cast, they could have a grain across them like a piece of wood and there was a part of a rotation where they went with it and a part when they went against it. Newer casting techniques have done away with that. Then you could thermally shock a disc by putting lots of energy in with one stop like coming down a freeway ramp and braking right at the end. It would cause rapid heating at the surface of the disc while the core is still much cooler so it couldn't cope with expansion. You can still crack discs by doing that but changes in design of the cooling slots and how heat sinks into the hub have almost eliminated that too. As for mis torqued wheels, well in most cases, the disc is quite free to move axially and not fixed to the hub and is simply clamped by the wheel. The wheels are now fully machined flat surfaces rather than point contact so unless somebody goes a bit mad and really tightens one nut but leaves other loose, that shouldn't happen any more either. Fitting new discs to dirty scaly hubs in the aftermarket isn't unheard of.
 
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If you think of a warped disc as being like a Pringle, it rarely happens these days, it's nearly always DTV if you set about measuring with some fancy gear. Disc technology is a subject all on its own and when you think about what they do - they can stop a fully loaded vehicle from high spread to zero time and time again without falling to bits. What used to cause warping was very much down to how they were made or designed. When they were cast, they could have a grain across them like a piece of wood and there was a part of a rotation where they went with it and a part when they went against it. Newer casting techniques have done away with that. Then you could thermally shock a disc by putting lots of energy in with one stop like coming down a freeway ramp and braking right at the end. It would cause rapid heating at the surface of the disc while the core is still much cooler so it couldn't cope with expansion. You can still crack discs by doing that but changes in design of the cooling slots and how heat sinks into the hub have almost eliminated that too. As for mis torqued wheels, well in most cases, the disc is quite free to move axially and not fixed to the hub and is simply clamped by the wheel. The wheels are now fully machined flat surfaces rather than point contact so unless somebody goes a bit mad and really tightens one nut but leaves other loose, that shouldn't happen any more either. Fitting new discs to dirty scaly hubs in the aftermarket isn't unheard of.

All I know is I've had multiple cars with this issue, some developing it literally 20 miles after the rotors were turned (because of same issue). Cured by hand-torquing vs. impact. Initial cause began after the tires were replaced. Car was fine for 17k miles, them BAM. I somehow down DTV happened all of a sudden with new tires.
 
I was very disappointed in the brakes of my new '17 CX5 compared to an also-new '15 CX5. The '17 had problems stopping for the first 1000 miles until they seated in. I took delivery of it with 205 miles on the odometer. My '15 was just off the truck and had 12 miles on it. I could modulate stopping power precisely from day 1.
I can confirm that this seems to be an issue with the 2017 CX-5. The brake pedal is soft. It actually took me by surprise when I had to do a hard stop at the traffic light. You have to step on it a lot more to get the it to stop. My basis of comparison is a 2016 CX-5 GT. On the 2016, the brakes are very responsive and bite quickly. It seems Mazda has softened the brake pedal feel on the 2017 in their quest to go with a more "premium/refined" ride.

As for the OP, wouldn't switching to stainless steel brake lines improve the brake pedal feel and response?
 
Heat doesn't warp rotors initially. Overtorquing does. Our local brake expert can confirm, I'm sure.

Unobtainium, I seriously recommend you stop doing 70-0 stops. Thats exactly what caused your brakes to warp. This is destructive to your brakes because when you stop, you are searing the hot pad against the rotor and warping them! Do not do this!
 
I can confirm that this seems to be an issue with the 2017 CX-5. The brake pedal is soft. It actually took me by surprise when I had to do a hard stop at the traffic light. You have to step on it a lot more to get the it to stop. My basis of comparison is a 2016 CX-5 GT. On the 2016, the brakes are very responsive and bite quickly. It seems Mazda has softened the brake pedal feel on the 2017 in their quest to go with a more "premium/refined" ride.

I dont think a spongy brake pedal signifies a more luxury feel. I suspect its just a discrepancy between the two models youve driven. Maybe try test driving another 1-2 cars to confirm this?

As for the OP, wouldn't switching to stainless steel brake lines improve the brake pedal feel and response?

I doubt it, because as far as I know your brake lines already have a metal encasing on the inside of the rubber bit where the brake fluid flows, meaning that steel brake lines make almost no difference unless youre looking to take your car on the track.

The brake pedal on my car is perhaps just a little more travel then I would like, but the pedal is still pretty firm and stopping power is indeed quite strong. I like that the pedal is very, very easy to modulate when trying to come to a smooth, linear stop or simply maintaining distance from the car in front of you.
 
I don’t think a spongy brake pedal signifies a more luxury feel. I suspect it’s just a discrepancy between the two models you’ve driven. Maybe try test driving another 1-2 cars to confirm this?
I've read complaints before on the CX-5 about touchy brakes. Meaning it bites quickly and it bites hard. I like it that way, but apparently, some people don't. I believe this is why Mazda has softened the brake pedals on the 2017 CX-5, to cater to the population that are not used to touchy brakes. It is not all that bad because the softer pedal allows the driver to better modulate the braking force, making very smooth stops very easy. Still, I would like the brake pedal to be more responsive.

I doubt it, because as far as I know your brake lines already have a metal encasing on the inside of the rubber bit where the brake fluid flows, meaning that steel brake lines make almost no difference unless you’re looking to take your car on the track.

The brake pedal on my car is perhaps just a little more travel then I would like, but the pedal is still pretty firm and stopping power is indeed quite strong. I like that the pedal is very, very easy to modulate when trying to come to a smooth, linear stop or simply maintaining distance from the car in front of you.
You'll never know unless you try, but it sounds like you don't need an upgrade based on what you're describing regarding the brakes on your car.
 
I've read complaints before on the CX-5 about touchy brakes. Meaning it bites quickly and it bites hard. I like it that way, but apparently, some people don't. I believe this is why Mazda has softened the brake pedals on the 2017 CX-5, to cater to the population that are not used to touchy brakes. It is not all that bad because the softer pedal allows the driver to better modulate the braking force, making very smooth stops very easy. Still, I would like the brake pedal to be more responsive.


You'll never know unless you try, but it sounds like you don't need an upgrade based on what you're describing regarding the brakes on your car.

True, I doubt Ill end up getting anything aftermarket for the Mazda.

Thats a damn shame, because getting used to the sensitivity and learning how to modulate touchy brakes is much more effective then soft, spongey brakes. God damn, consumers these days are so ridiculous. Consumers nowadays just want softer, boring, more flabby...

The brakes on my Mazda have an initial dead zone at the top of the pedal travel (the bmw has this too) and this is so you can smooth your intial brake application and probably so your brake lights start flashing a little early. Its great Stuff!

Dont forget I have a Mazda 6 which is lower and lighter then the CX-5, and they probably have the same size brakes so mine will probably feel more firm and stronger then in the CX-5.
 
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