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Thread: 2016 CX-9 Loss of Power

  1. #16
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    2016 CX-9 Loss of Power

    I experienced loss of power on accel the other day...I didn't mash the throttle, but instead gave it a slow but heavy dose of the pedal...An odd noise emitted on loss of power (maybe boost leak?)...i let off and all was fine. I had been running whatever 87 octane (and noticing some uneven boost) so I'm on 93 now with no further issues and smoother boost.

  2. #17
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    Update on my situation. The dealer has had our vehicle for over two weeks now. They had us driving it with a data recorder installed, but after experiencing several "limp mode" incidents, they asked to keep it and gave us a loaner CX-9. After sending the data recorder back to the Mazda engineers, the dealer was asked this week to install a different data recorder and try to reproduce the issue themselves. The issue tends to happen after driving for a while, but they apparently haven't driven it much, so they haven't been able to make it happen yet. Plus, if the issue is heat-related, the weather here has been cool lately, so it may be more difficult to reproduce. They think the issue might be related to a sensor - either a bad sensor or the software reacting incorrectly to the data from the sensor.

  3. #18
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    Well, we had a happy ending. The engineers couldn't figure out the problem with our CX-9, so Mazda offered to buy back our vehicle and replace it with a new one. They gave us top dollar to trade my 2016 CX-9 (with 20,000 miles and engine issues) plus they gave me a boatload of incentives. We just picked up our brand new 2017 CX-9. Mazda did us right!

  4. #19
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    Thanks for the update, I'm happy that you were given an amicable solution.

  5. #20
    Registered Member Cessna CJ4's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by seplant View Post
    Thanks for the replies. We're taking it in to the Mazda dealer tomorrow. Problem is that it only does this intermittently, so it probably won't act up while we have it there.
    Ok, that is a different problem. The original post did not indicate an "intermittent" condition. Intermittent by definition means that something is in the process of failing and not functioning consistently, or simply in a state of inconsistent operation.

    Most engine performance issues tend to reduce down to something having to do with:

    • Fuel
    • Air
    • Spark
    • Timing
    • Exhaust
    • Compression


    This is ground zero in most cases where most issues will lurk behind some Causation leading to some Effect. Initial checks you can make without a mechanic: Check for DTCs with an OBDII scanner (Home Screen > Applications > Select Warning Guidance).

    Though your 2016 should still be well under the warranty period, if you are so inclined you might want to at least try to troubleshoot the problem to a general fault. Having the DTCs may help in this regard as it starts to point you towards the system or sub-system possibly containing the malfunction. The nature of the DTC can help in determining the potential type of problem (mechanical, electrical, etc.).

    Having a Mazda 2016 CX-9 Workshop Service & Repair Manual would not hurt either - probably worth ordering from your dealer. Again, your 2016 is still under warranty and should ultimately be taken back to the dealer for repairs. However, when you do go back, you want to arrive in the service department having as much information about the potential problem as possible and at least trying to troubleshoot the matter (if at all possible) before hand could help.

    There is a difference between arriving at your dealer and telling them you have a "loss of power when you step on the accelerator pedal" and "There is an intermittent voltage irregularity going into the EGR Value. The result seems to be an intermittent loss of power on acceleration."

    There is a lot going on in front of and behind the new iSkyActive-G turbo charger to keep it spooled up at lower RPM. The new EGR design plays a role on the intake side to help keep temperatures low by routing exhaust gasses through the intercooler, but the controlled exhaust ports also play a vital role in keeping the turbos spooled as well. Both of these sub-systems would have a definitely impact on throttle response if either were malfunctioning. If the DPT value (Dynamic Pressure Turbo) which is normally constrictive at lower RPM, is somehow not opening as designed when you place a demand on the throttle, that would seem like a potential cause for "loss of power" as that 17+ lbs of "instant boost" is necessary to get things going. Without it, you could be experiencing severe lag.

    However, one of my initial concerns with this new iSkyActive-G design was its Direct Injection design. A lot of engines on the market these days are now direct injection and some of them suffer from carbon build-up on the back side of the values at relatively low mileage - leading to power loss. However, the kind of losses you are describing make carbon build-up on the valves as the exclusive causation seem fairly remote - but we don't yet know what the felt effects of direct injection carbon build-up on values will be with the iSkyActive-G because it is still a relatively brand new engine design. Time will tell and I am paying particular attention to my Valves along the way.

    Still, as someone has already stated here, being a 2016 CX-9 and having that kind of struggle in producing power under throttle makes me think in terms of ECM. As a sanity check, you can easily check the upper air intake system components for blockages (air cleaner body bottom, air filter, air cleaner body top, air pipe, air inlet hose, mass airflow sensor).

    Given the age and miles on the vehicle. This will probably turn out to be a really easy fix once you get a good trained mechanic troubleshooting it.

  6. #21
    Registered Member Cessna CJ4's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by PTguy View Post
    No reports of carbon on the backs of the intake valves. In any case, that wouldn't be the same as seplant is reporting.

    Carbon on the backs of the intake valves is a result of the engine's crankcase breather system not adequately removing oil vapors before venting to the intake, plus direct fuel injection where no gasoline is in the intake air to wash off these valves. I think most engine makers have corrected this problem.

    I have to disagree somewhat. Ford, Volkswagen, Audi, BMW and GM's Cadillac division are still dealing with this issue, though aggregate reporting of these problems has fallen over the years since mass production of DI engines hit the market. By my evaluation - it is still a problem. However, manufacturers have had to deal with emissions regulations that kept coming over the years and this has been part of the price of admission. Toyota, Honda and Acura as far as "mass producers" go have done a better job, but that could very well be because they came late to the party, sat back and went to school on all those problems everyone else initially had.

    Ford, has probably been the poster child for DI carbon problems, however.

  7. #22
    Registered Member Cessna CJ4's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by seplant View Post
    Well, we had a happy ending. The engineers couldn't figure out the problem with our CX-9, so Mazda offered to buy back our vehicle and replace it with a new one. They gave us top dollar to trade my 2016 CX-9 (with 20,000 miles and engine issues) plus they gave me a boatload of incentives. We just picked up our brand new 2017 CX-9. Mazda did us right!

    Wow! I just now read this far. They offered you top dollar and a new 2017. That was a class act, indeed. Kudos to Mazda Corporate for doing that, no doubt - and great for you! Congratulations!

    However, I'm now more perplexed than I was before I wrote my initial reply. I now have even more questions given my history with GM and a C5 Corvette that lost significant power above 4,300 RPM both on the road under actual loads and on the dyno. GM never offered to buy back anything by the way and they never were able to solve the problem. I guess that just shows the difference between the two companies.

    Still, I'm left wondering now whether or not this anomaly will only show up in 2016 production lines of the CX-9 and if so, which drive train (Front Wheel only, AWD or both). If I'm guessing right about Mazda's integrity, they are probably now using your old 2016 as a research vehicle. I'm pretty sure you are happy with your new 2017, but I would sure like to know if this problem extends down the production time line and into any of the 2017s. I'm sure new 2018 owners and prospective owners want to know the same - as this was one of the first very serious issues that I've read about on the CX-9. Power loss that severe without a fix from the OEM is by definition a very serious issue.

    Anomalous lemons are going to statistically occur with any automobile manufacturer no matter who that manufacturer happens to be or what they make. It is the nature of the mass production. However, I would like to know if this was merely anomaly, or some kind of manufacturing flaw that only shows up under certain manufacturing conditions. It is obviously not a design flaw, else I would expect the number of reported instances to be significantly higher. I just want to know that it was not a lingering production error onsite that apparently got missed and then trickled into 2017s and 2018s.

    I wish there was a way to track what Mazda is actually learning from your 2016 CX-9.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cessna CJ4 View Post
    I wish there was a way to track what Mazda is actually learning from your 2016 CX-9.
    Our dealer let us know that Mazda had them replace the entire fuel injection system on our old 2016 CX-9. They won't know for sure if that fixed the issue until someone drives the vehicle for a while.

  9. #24
    Registered Member Cessna CJ4's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by seplant View Post
    Our dealer let us know that Mazda had them replace the entire fuel injection system on our old 2016 CX-9. They won't know for sure if that fixed the issue until someone drives the vehicle for a while.
    Very interesting an very ironic because that's exactly what GM did with my Corvette when it suffered a loss of power above 4,300 RPM with no apparent reason. The replaced all fuel injectors (including fuel rail system, etc.), the piezo transducer knock sensor, spark plugs and wires to no positive effect. Of course, the mass air flow sensor, ECM and PCM were next, followed by the entire fuel sending unit (FSU), etc., etc., etc. They never found the culprit and thus never solved the problem - nor did they ever suggest a buy back. They were always attempting to replace something, no matter how irrelevant, in order to show a paper trail of corrective actions being made. GM won't buy back when their Regional Manager concludes that more can be done to rectify the problem.

    I still love the Corvette. I just wont ever buy one again given the way GM raked me over the coals about a material defect they could not resolve. I'm glad Mazda demonstrated some integrity and solved your problem with an offer.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by snapbox View Post
    I had a very similar problem a couple of months ago..


    Turns out they (Dealer, Mazda Regional, Mazda USA AND Mazda Japan) have absolutely no idea what caused it, so they replaced the
    knock sensor and the ENTIRE EXHAUST MANIFOLD. Pretty crazy.

    I'd like to note that Mazda had to hire translators to get the Japanese engineers on the phone with the local dealer techs.

    The car was in the dealer for over two weeks. I have it back now and it's running flawlessly, but I'm not convinced they solved the actual problem.

    PM me if I can be of any help.

    Routine and common Parts Swapping when the Dealer, Regional Manager and Corporate Office has no clue about the Causation. If you do the homework, you will see that this is the case with just about any mass produced auto manufacturer when it comes to the issue of reported "Power Loss Under Throttle."

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by snapbox View Post
    I had a very similar problem a couple of months ago..


    Turns out they (Dealer, Mazda Regional, Mazda USA AND Mazda Japan) have absolutely no idea what caused it, so they replaced the knock sensor and the ENTIRE EXHAUST MANIFOLD. Pretty crazy.

    I'd like to note that Mazda had to hire translators to get the Japanese engineers on the phone with the local dealer techs.

    The car was in the dealer for over two weeks. I have it back now and it's running flawlessly, but I'm not convinced they solved the actual problem.

    PM me if I can be of any help.
    I have read carefully what you have written and I had the same failure with my 2017 mazda cx9. turns out there is a barometric sensor that works with the engine. I went to the dealer after having this massive failure and seems the barometric sensor had failed and the car thought was 2000 meters under water , that made everything to fail.
    at the moment that this happened I stopped the car turned it off wait for a minute and restarted. everything went back to normal but seems the whole computer has to be changed.
    regards
    M

  12. #27
    Registered Member Cessna CJ4's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gatuno View Post
    I have read carefully what you have written and I had the same failure with my 2017 mazda cx9. turns out there is a barometric sensor that works with the engine. I went to the dealer after having this massive failure and seems the barometric sensor had failed and the car thought was 2000 meters under water , that made everything to fail.
    at the moment that this happened I stopped the car turned it off wait for a minute and restarted. everything went back to normal but seems the whole computer has to be changed.
    regards
    M


    I can't imagine this not throwing a DTC with a Check Engine Light. Did you check for DTCs or did you notice any Warning /!\ under Mazda Connect > Applications > Vehicle Status Monitor before you took the CX-9 to the dealer?

    Did they specifically tell you that the problem was with the MAP Sensor (Manifold Absolute Pressure Sensor)? Or, did you hear them say Mass Airflow Sensor?

    Ultimately, it is the ECU that determines how much fuel is delivered and thus how much power is made. You say the original symptom was a distinct "power loss." That implies on acceleration the engine simply failed to produce normal power for a specific throttle setting (in general terms). When you step on the accelerator pedal you also change the barometric pressure inside the MAP sensor.

    Naturally, the vacuum from the intake manifold puts negative pressure on the MAP and the flexible silicone based chip/diaphragm inside it will report to the ECU a specific level of converted voltage. The ECU takes that signal along with other inputs and then determines fuel delivery. So, if there is a voltage irregularity within this part of the MAP, when you step on the accelerator pedal the ECM may be receiving incorrect signal and that could lead to incorrect fuel delivery causing "power loss" as you describe. The MAP also plays a role on some boosted engines with a turbo charger as the CX-9.

    Or, the MAP could be just fine and the ECM/ECU could be the problem in this one regard - which would most like require replacing the entire unit. The other variable inputs to the ECM/ECU for fuel deliver are Air Temperature and Engine Speed - both of which have their own sensors that should be checked for a full diagnostic run. If there is a faulty Higher Temperature input, the ECU/ECM will dump less fuel and that too could cause your "power loss." If a faulty Low Engine Speed is being sent, then again, less fuel will be injected and thus less power made.

    The MAP might be one of the easier fixes on this engine. But, I am surprised that no DTC was thrown and that the Mechanic made no mention of an OBDII code which probably would have been one of the first things they checked.

    You say the "whole computer has to be changed." That sounds like they are removing and replacing the ECU/ECM and if that is the case, my question would be a resounding why. I could see a faulty MAP sensor. I would have a harder time reconciling a faulty ECU/ECM this early in the life of the vehicle. Possible? Yes, sure it happens. But, I would not like to hear that they had to replace such a mission critical unit this soon.

    Can you please report back what specific part they actually replaced once the repairs are made. Thank you.
    Last edited by Cessna CJ4; 10-30-2017 at 10:40 PM.

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