Why get AWD?

This particular scenario involves cornering while hydroplaning. I don't know what other people's experiences have been, but in my case at least 95% of the time I've experienced hydroplaning I've been going straight. The moments where I've been closest to losing control happened when hitting unexpectedly deep puddles on the highway. In those cases, if the front wheels remain planted but the rear wheels are loose, you still have directional control to keep the car straight. The car behaves like a weathervane, the rears follow the fronts and there's no oversteer and no big deal. But if the front wheels break loose, you have no directional control and that could become a big deal if there's any angle between the direction of the wheels and the direction of vehicle travel, which could result in a sideways force from the water pushing the car further offline.

The other wet weather scenario that I think is more important is braking. I suspect that failing to get the car slowed or stopped in time is a bigger cause of accidents than oversteer. For best braking performance, the best tires should be on the front. This is especially true in snow, which for those of us who live in the North is more of a concern than hydroplaning. Oversteer in the snow is (for me) relatively harmless and very easy to correct, understeer is worse, and traction while braking is of the highest importance.

Yeah. it's funny that Tirerack or Michelin didn't test for wet braking with best tires on rear vs front, or as you mentioned, driving straight at reasonably high speeds in wet weather with best tires on rear vs front.
Their conclusion lists one example, hauling ass around corners, which most people will not do anyway when it's raining, and this justifies their reasoning to them. It just also happens to create a situation where drivers will burn through tires faster and void any kind of mileage warranty if they replace only 2 tires at a time.
 
This particular scenario involves cornering while hydroplaning. I don't know what other people's experiences have been, but in my case at least 95% of the time I've experienced hydroplaning I've been going straight. The moments where I've been closest to losing control happened when hitting unexpectedly deep puddles on the highway. In those cases, if the front wheels remain planted but the rear wheels are loose, you still have directional control to keep the car straight. The car behaves like a weathervane, the rears follow the fronts and there's no oversteer and no big deal. But if the front wheels break loose, you have no directional control and that could become a big deal if there's any angle between the direction of the wheels and the direction of vehicle travel, which could result in a sideways force from the water pushing the car further offline.

The other wet weather scenario that I think is more important is braking. I suspect that failing to get the car slowed or stopped in time is a bigger cause of accidents than oversteer. For best braking performance, the best tires should be on the front. This is especially true in snow, which for those of us who live in the North is more of a concern than hydroplaning. Oversteer in the snow is (for me) relatively harmless and very easy to correct, understeer is worse, and traction while braking is of the highest importance.
You and GJ are not looking at the bigger picture here. You and GJ are skilled enough to handle oversteer, but most of the driving population aren't. So when your car slides and you are able to catch it, great. What about the cars on the road with you that are spinning out of control? One of those cars could crash into your car no matter how skilled you are at stopping your car from spinning.

If your rear tires hydroplane first before your front tires, yes you will have directional control of the steering, but without control of the rear tires, you won't be able to do much. If you are able to catch the rear tires stepping out really early and provided they stop hydroplaning once you notice it, you might be able to control the spin. If you are already near sideways when you notice it, that is too late I think; that is definitely too late for the general population who are not skilled enough to handle that event. If the rear tires are hydroplaning anyway, you cannot control it with the throttle like you would normally do in a powerslide or drift. So even if you have control of the front tires, you cannot correct the car's line with the throttle.

Take a look at this blog post from All State. They are not a tire company, so I don't think they will try to push you into making a decision that will profit the tire manufacturers, but who knows. The video in the blog post is from Michelin and shows a hydroplane test where one car has the new tires on the front, the other has the new tires on the rear.
https://blog.allstate.com/new-tires-rear/
 
You and GJ are not looking at the bigger picture here. You and GJ are skilled enough to handle oversteer, but most of the driving population aren't. So when your car slides and you are able to catch it, great. What about the cars on the road with you that are spinning out of control? One of those cars could crash into your car no matter how skilled you are at stopping your car from spinning.

If your rear tires hydroplane first before your front tires, yes you will have directional control of the steering, but without control of the rear tires, you won't be able to do much. If you are able to catch the rear tires stepping out really early and provided they stop hydroplaning once you notice it, you might be able to control the spin. If you are already near sideways when you notice it, that is too late I think; that is definitely too late for the general population who are not skilled enough to handle that event. If the rear tires are hydroplaning anyway, you cannot control it with the throttle like you would normally do in a powerslide or drift. So even if you have control of the front tires, you cannot correct the car's line with the throttle.

Take a look at this blog post from All State. They are not a tire company, so I don't think they will try to push you into making a decision that will profit the tire manufacturers, but who knows. The video in the blog post is from Michelin and shows a hydroplane test where one car has the new tires on the front, the other has the new tires on the rear.
https://blog.allstate.com/new-tires-rear/

Yes, you are correct. If you plan on driving in circles or through mountain passes at near maximum speed limits when the road is extremely wet, (edit)stopping is not as important as getting through those corners fast, and you can only get 2 tires, it might be best for that particular person to put them on the rear.

For everyone else, no.
 
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Yes, you are correct. If you plan on driving in circles or through mountain passes at near maximum speed limits when the road is extremely wet, and you can only get 2 tires, it might be best for that particular person to put them on the rear.
For everyone else, no.
Did you watch the video? The cars were going 45 mph and the car with new tires on the rear can barely hold its line. I wouldn't say 45 mph is that extreme of a speed to be driving at.

Here's an article from Popular Mechanics that say the same thing.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/how-to/a2479/4243992/

There's also a video on Youtube from Consumer Reports that say the same thing; new tires go on the rear.

Last thing I want to clarify is that, this is only an issue if you have a pair of new tires that have tread differences greater than 2/32. If you are doing regular tire rotations, the tread depth differences between all 4 tires will be minimal and you can replace all 4 tires when they have worn out.

Anyway, I've made my point and I respect the opinions of people who do not agree with my findings. If someone finds an article on the internet from a reputable source that details why new tires shouldn't be placed on the rear, please send me the link as I would very much like to read it. Have a good day everyone.
 
Yes stopping is important as well. If the tires have only 4/32 left, you want to replace them already as they are not optimal for wet weather driving. It doesn't matter if only the front tires are at 4/32, you want to replace them anyway. If you don't like replacing just two tires, replace all four.
 
Did you watch the video? The cars were going 45 mph and the car with new tires on the rear can barely hold its line. I wouldn't say 45 mph is that extreme of a speed to be driving at.

Here's an article from Popular Mechanics that say the same thing.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/how-to/a2479/4243992/

There's also a video on Youtube from Consumer Reports that say the same thing; new tires go on the rear.

Last thing I want to clarify is that, this is only an issue if you have a pair of new tires that have tread differences greater than 2/32. If you are doing regular tire rotations, the tread depth differences between all 4 tires will be minimal and you can replace all 4 tires when they have worn out.

Anyway, I've made my point and I respect the opinions of people who do not agree with my findings. If someone finds an article on the internet from a reputable source that details why new tires shouldn't be placed on the rear, please send me the link as I would very much like to read it. Have a good day everyone.

I was in the tire business for years. Most people do not rotate their tires like they should, but you are correct in that if everyone did that and no one ever had a tire failure, none of this would be an issue. But due to lack of rotation or lack of money, a lot of people just replace 2 tires at a time.

On another note, I just called one of my friends from Firestone and asked him about this. He said lawyers got involved and determined it was safer for cars to have crashes with the front of the car hitting something (of course), so they decided that for liability reasons it was safer to try to prevent cars from spinning the rear around and hitting something going backwards. All of this at the expense of more collisions hitting something going forward because you can't stop near as fast or lose control in straight line driving situations. He agreed it was stupid, but all tire shops are going this direction because corporate tells them to. But even on the Michelin website, they say "Michelin generally recommends they be installed on the rear axle in the absence of a tire service professional's recommendation or consumer's preference to the contrary." So yeah, it's just all about CYA and they will leave it up to the customer if they would prefer to stop their vehicle in wet weather or not. I can see a point where they won't sell you tires at all if you do not buy all 4.

This is direct from Michelin website:

Mixing New Tires With Worn Tires

When replacing two new tires instead of four, be sure that your new tires are the same size and tire type as your current tires, and that your dealer always installs the new tires on the rear axle of your vehicle.

For continued optimized vehicle performance, it is recommended that all tires be replaced at the same time with identical MSPN.

Deeper tread tires on the rear axle provide better handling, wet grip, and evacuate water, thereby helping to avoid oversteer and loss of vehicle stability on wet surfaces. Deeper tread tires on the front axle can improve wet straight line braking and stopping distance. If only two tires are being replaced, Michelin generally recommends they be installed on the rear axle in the absence of a tire service professional's recommendation or consumer's preference to the contrary.

http://www.michelinman.com/US/en/safe-driving/tire-safety/mixing-tires.html
 
Take a look at this blog post from All State. They are not a tire company, so I don't think they will try to push you into making a decision that will profit the tire manufacturers, but who knows. The video in the blog post is from Michelin and shows a hydroplane test where one car has the new tires on the front, the other has the new tires on the rear.
https://blog.allstate.com/new-tires-rear/

Yeah, Michelin has updated that video. Now they have a new one trying to make the same point on their website that I got a kick out of. You really need to check it out. It's with Michelin test driver Sara, and Paul, a meteorologist. I must repeat this: This video is actually on the Michelin website.

First lap around the track with new tires on back. Very casual drive, and when the car starts to hydroplane, they just let off the gas.
Sara: The steering wheel is talking to you. You can feel it getting light.
Paul: You think you're going one direction and then you starts sliding to the right. That's the hydroplaning right?
Sara: Exactly.
Paul: That's basically the water coming between the tires and the road?
Sara: Right, and you can't steer on water, you can't steer on standing water so that's when you let off the gas just a little bit, and let it come back.

Now with new tires on the front. The tone and speed changes. Paul doesn't get to talk in this test. Sara is only concerned about getting the speed up.
Sara: Bring out the Corvette driver in you and hammer down. Go baby go! Keep going go go go go! Gotta get till those rear tires start to lose grip. Keep going, keep going, keep going. Now brake hard! I want you to stand on that brake pedal! Stay on it, stay on it. (car loses control)
Alright, so that's a pretty decisive difference between the first car and the second car.
Paul: Yeah (awkwardly)

So to prove their point, they drastically increased speed and then had poor Paul stand on the brake (their words) while entering a left turn and for some reason the back end swung around. Unbelievable. I am now absolutely convinced it is best for the tire manufacturers for the new tires to be on the rear.

http://www.michelinman.com/US/en/safe-driving/tire-safety/mixing-tires.html
 
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Yeah, Michelin has updated that video. Now they have a new one trying to make the same point on their website that I got a kick out of. You really need to check it out. It's with Michelin test driver Sara, and Paul, a meteorologist. I must repeat this: This video is actually on the Michelin website.

First lap around the track with new tires on back. Very casual drive, and when the car starts to hydroplane, they just let off the gas.
Sara: The steering wheel is talking to you. You can feel it getting light.
Paul: You think you're going one direction and then you starts sliding to the right. That's the hydroplaning right?
Sara: Exactly.
Paul: That's basically the water coming between the tires and the road?
Sara: Right, and you can't steer on water, you can't steer on standing water so that's when you let off the gas just a little bit, and let it come back.

Now with new tires on the front. The tone and speed changes. Paul doesn't get to talk in this test. Sara is only concerned about getting the speed up.
Sara: Bring out the Corvette driver in you and hammer down. Go baby go! Keep going go go go go! Gotta get till those rear tires start to lose grip. Keep going, keep going, keep going. Now brake hard! I want you to stand on that brake pedal! Stay on it, stay on it. (car loses control)
Alright, so that's a pretty decisive difference between the first car and the second car.
Paul: Yeah (awkwardly)

So to prove their point, they drastically increased speed and then had poor Paul stand on the brake (their words) while entering a left turn and for some reason the back end swung around. Unbelievable. I am now absolutely convinced it is best for the tire manufacturers for the new tires to be on the rear.

http://www.michelinman.com/US/en/safe-driving/tire-safety/mixing-tires.html

My hydroplaning incident did not turn out how I wanted. I was driving a vehicle with 53/47 weight dist, and doing about 65. When I felt the wheel getting light, I let off the gas. The wheel then began to dance and the front end started stepping out. I VERY GENTLY applied the brake. ABS said "SCREW YOU!" and began pulsing the brakes, which caused the car to do a 180* and slide for several hundred yards arse-first down the freeway. Luckily, myself and the car were unhurt, but I did decide Potenza's were the most unsafe tire I've ever driven on in the rain.
 
What a ridiculous video. So you if you ever find yourself in the pouring rain trying to find the limit on a skidpad and then stand on the brakes, make sure the good tires are on the back :)
Seriously, when the conditions are wet enough to cause hydroplaning, who goes around corners at that kind of speed? People who have never driven in the rain? It's like they cherry picked the one use case that supports their recommendation, without considering how likely it is. For decades the rule has been new tires go on the front for FWD cars and new tires go on the back for RWD cars, because it's logical. And in that time, I don't recall oversteer on corners being a common cause of wet weather accidents.

Another thing to consider: If you're cornering way too fast for the wet conditions, hydroplane the fronts, and hit the brakes, you're most likely going off the road anyway. So how is that better? In the Michelin video where they induced the car to spin, it stopped right in the middle of the skidpad.

For me, if I'm stuck replacing tires in pairs, snow traction is my #1 consideration, and in a FWD vehicle I absolutely no question want the better tires on the front.
 
Yeah, Michelin has updated that video. Now they have a new one trying to make the same point on their website that I got a kick out of. You really need to check it out. It's with Michelin test driver Sara, and Paul, a meteorologist. I must repeat this: This video is actually on the Michelin website.

First lap around the track with new tires on back. Very casual drive, and when the car starts to hydroplane, they just let off the gas.
Sara: The steering wheel is talking to you. You can feel it getting light.
Paul: You think you're going one direction and then you starts sliding to the right. That's the hydroplaning right?
Sara: Exactly.
Paul: That's basically the water coming between the tires and the road?
Sara: Right, and you can't steer on water, you can't steer on standing water so that's when you let off the gas just a little bit, and let it come back.

Now with new tires on the front. The tone and speed changes. Paul doesn't get to talk in this test. Sara is only concerned about getting the speed up.
Sara: Bring out the Corvette driver in you and hammer down. Go baby go! Keep going go go go go! Gotta get till those rear tires start to lose grip. Keep going, keep going, keep going. Now brake hard! I want you to stand on that brake pedal! Stay on it, stay on it. (car loses control)
Alright, so that's a pretty decisive difference between the first car and the second car.
Paul: Yeah (awkwardly)

So to prove their point, they drastically increased speed and then had poor Paul stand on the brake (their words) while entering a left turn and for some reason the back end swung around. Unbelievable. I am now absolutely convinced it is best for the tire manufacturers for the new tires to be on the rear.

http://www.michelinman.com/US/en/safe-driving/tire-safety/mixing-tires.html
Thanks for sharing some insider info from the other side of the debate. I'm always up for learning new things.

That updated video sounds like a very biased take on it. I think the older video was less biased. I'll check it out tonight.
 
By the way, that's another reason for keeping the best tires on the rear. As a driver, it is harder to notice the rear tires hydroplaning than the front tires. So if your front tires hydroplane first, you have a better chance at correcting as opposed to the rear tires hydroplaning first.

Appreciate the friendly discussion(hi). But to further refute the tire manufacturers example of the dangers of losing traction and oversteer on wet roads:

In a scenario where you purchase 4 new tires, surely the weight of the engine (rear/mid engine excluded) would force the front tires to be more resistant to hydroplaning. If the front and rear have equal tread, the rear would hydroplane first in these wet weather turns, which defeats the whole idea of noticing the front hydroplaning first and letting off the gas to correct the problem before the rear hydroplanes. In this situation, equally worn tires (from regular tire rotations) also would not be safe.

But all tire manufacturers recommend for "optimal vehicle performance" all 4 tires should be replaced. Are they messing with our safety? Maybe they should shave down the new front tires a predetermined amount to make sure the best tires are on the rear, lol. Or only sell 2 tires at a time, always on the rear and never allow rotations. New cars ship with used tires on the front.
 
I think you guys are over thinking this now.

I agree. I just can't believe I can go into Discount Tire with 2 bald tires on the front and decent tires on the back and ask for 2 new ones. They tell me they have to move them to the back because it's not safe to put them on the front. I ask them if putting the 2 new tires on front will make my car more dangerous than it is now? They don't know what to say.
 
I always buy sets of four. There is some grey area here obviously though I do agree that advice is generally sound. Then each time you buy two you move the other to front. I'll still buy in sets of four and rotate though.
 
If the vehicle less tread in the front to steer or stop, the rears will do nothing for you as you're sent into the guard rail. It's complete and utter nonsense and so many of you are falling for it.

Your car should have good tires on it PERIOD. The most tread goes to the tires that are worn out first and therefore used more. It's such simple logic.

Many of you have absolutely zero experience with chassis dynamics. actually putting the chassis to work and learning the limits of yourself as a driver and your vehicle. If you don't know how your car behaves, you shouldn't let a tire manufacturer choose some stupid idea with a load of s*** to back it up.

The front tires of your vehicle steers, brakes and and accelerates your car. They need the most grip, not the rear which is following the front. As long as the rear tires have tread, you're not just going to hydroplane out of nowhere unless you can't drive or your tires are not good.

Yokohama's Performace tires (not your OEM geolander garbage) delivers excellent steering/chassis communication and unbelievably good traction in heavy rain. The car is perfectly tuned to YOKOHAMA. I've taken corners in pouring rain as if the street was dry, it's very impressive. You are not going to spin out and just crash if you are driving on a wet highway and the rear tires are slightly worn... come on.

Think about your safety and saving money on tires, not Some garbage that the tire manufactures want..
 
If the vehicle less tread in the front to steer or stop, the rears will do nothing for you as you're sent into the guard rail. It's complete and utter nonsense and so many of you are falling for it.

Your car should have good tires on it PERIOD. The most tread goes to the tires that are worn out first and therefore used more. It's such simple logic.

Many of you have absolutely zero experience with chassis dynamics. actually putting the chassis to work and learning the limits of yourself as a driver and your vehicle. If you don't know how your car behaves, you shouldn't let a tire manufacturer choose some stupid idea with a load of s*** to back it up.

The front tires of your vehicle steers, brakes and and accelerates your car. They need the most grip, not the rear which is following the front. As long as the rear tires have tread, you're not just going to hydroplane out of nowhere unless you can't drive or your tires are not good.

Yokohama's Performace tires (not your OEM geolander garbage) delivers excellent steering/chassis communication and unbelievably good traction in heavy rain. The car is perfectly tuned to YOKOHAMA. I've taken corners in pouring rain as if the street was dry, it's very impressive. You are not going to spin out and just crash if you are driving on a wet highway and the rear tires are slightly worn... come on.

Think about your safety and saving money on tires, not Some garbage that the tire manufactures want..

No rear brakes?:) But agreed- 4 good, properly inflated tires: needed always for safety- more than a head up display lane keep assist or radar cruise ctrl- assuming you're not surfing the web or texting while driving. My X1 is chewing my Yoko Advan Sport A/S's- made bmw rotate them even though they tried convincing me it was unnecessary as equal torque goes to both axles- I'm like again, RWD car idiots! Anyway so my (now fronts) have ~5-6/32 after ~15k. I had a scary moment few weeks ago late night poorly lit highway after it had rained on a road I don't drive much..70 mph through ponding almost landed me in the rail. I'm not saying they're bad or it was their fault but I'm confident I wouldn't have nearly shat myself on my Toyo A23s in the Mazda- hence its become my go to in any kind of weather aside from drizzle and this is more in relation to the tires than the awd... Conundrum of rwd..you still want good ones on the front but the rears are wearing twice as fast. Rotate or replace rears twice as much? On my leased X1 I went with rotate so I'd at least make my 25-30k. I stripped off the staggered OE 19s on RFT P1s @5k- they were harsh and expensive as s*** anyway- rears were already @5/32!!
 
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