Coolant got into engine - need your advice

bentran

Member
:
Mazda CX9
I bought a 2008 Cx 9, Sport AWD used at 111k miles 5 months ago, it is now 114k. Since then I have replaced: transfer case, condenser.

Last week, I took it to dealership for recalls fix. They suggested to flush coolant as they saw water in the coolant fluid. I agreed and left the car there.
A day later, they called back saying the car could not be started after flushing the coolant. They needed to replace the starter in order to do more diagnostics.

The outcomes were that, the car had had (some) problems that allowed coolant leak into the engine. The coolant has to be at a certain level below FULL (not FULL) and the liquid is not a real coolant (since it was with the previous owner).
(If coolant is real coolant and at FULL, coolant will leak into engine and make the car difficult to start.)

So NOW, the car is running with the mix of 20% coolant and 80% of water, and the level is right at the middle (between FULL and LOW).
The temperature is at the middle. There is smelly smoke at the tail but i assume it is because there is still coolant buildup during the flush. and it will go away soon.

The dealership suggested to either open the engine to see if it is because of the head gasket is bad OR replace the engine with a used engine.

1. Open the engine to check, this is best case scenario if the head gasket needs to be replaced. They quote is $2800. If it turns out something else, the cost maybe higher.
They said that the the 1 and 3 pistons look cleaner (no carbon buildup which means coolant leaks into that side).

2. Replace with the new engine: they said they have a 93k miles engine to replace, and the cost is over $4000.

I have NOT done any of those because I cannot afford just yet.

I am looking for your advice here:

A. Should I keep the car and try to fix the gasket somewhere else (maybe cheaper). At least I can try to fix the side that include the 1 and 3 pistons.
B. Should I replace the engine?
C. Sell the car? I found it unethical to do this as someone will have trouble like me know.

All comments are welcome, and if you have somewhere that can do the work cheaper, please share.

Thanks. Tran
 
Try www.car-parts.com, they have a used engine there for 1800 with low mileage. If you have a mechanic that you trust you can have it delivered to him and let him install it. This would be a lot cheaper than 4000 dollars and a lower mileage engine. Just make sure that you provide him with the FL-22 coolant. Also have the radiator flushed before installing.
 
I bought a 2008 Cx 9, Sport AWD used at 111k miles 5 months ago, it is now 114k. Since then I have replaced: transfer case, condenser.

Last week, I took it to dealership for recalls fix. They suggested to flush coolant as they saw water in the coolant fluid. I agreed and left the car there.
A day later, they called back saying the car could not be started after flushing the coolant. They needed to replace the starter in order to do more diagnostics.

The outcomes were that, the car had had (some) problems that allowed coolant leak into the engine. The coolant has to be at a certain level below FULL (not FULL) and the liquid is not a real coolant (since it was with the previous owner).
(If coolant is real coolant and at FULL, coolant will leak into engine and make the car difficult to start.)

So NOW, the car is running with the mix of 20% coolant and 80% of water, and the level is right at the middle (between FULL and LOW).
The temperature is at the middle. There is smelly smoke at the tail but i assume it is because there is still coolant buildup during the flush. and it will go away soon.

The dealership suggested to either open the engine to see if it is because of the head gasket is bad OR replace the engine with a used engine.

1. Open the engine to check, this is best case scenario if the head gasket needs to be replaced. They quote is $2800. If it turns out something else, the cost maybe higher.
They said that the the 1 and 3 pistons look cleaner (no carbon buildup which means coolant leaks into that side).

2. Replace with the new engine: they said they have a 93k miles engine to replace, and the cost is over $4000.

I have NOT done any of those because I cannot afford just yet.

I am looking for your advice here:

A. Should I keep the car and try to fix the gasket somewhere else (maybe cheaper). At least I can try to fix the side that include the 1 and 3 pistons.
B. Should I replace the engine?
C. Sell the car? I found it unethical to do this as someone will have trouble like me know.

All comments are welcome, and if you have somewhere that can do the work cheaper, please share.

Thanks. Tran

Damn that sucks, Sorry to hear of your troubles, the problem is the water pump gasket, there is a thread on the water pump issue here in this forum, basically it's a Ford Duratec engine design, the water pump is internal to the engine, and the gasket between the water pump and engine fails around 100k, allowing the coolant into the engine, by doing the flush the dealer compounded the problem by basically pressure forcing the coolant into your engine. Thus your engine wouldn't start, they basically screwed up and made it worse by suggesting the flush and trying to cover their ass now. I would not go with the 93k UNLESS they replace the water pump with a new one, also I highly recommend going thru the water pump replacement thread in the how to section, there are other parts that you should replace if you go with the dealers 93k engine, a lot easier to change while the engine is out in the open, it's a pain in the ass to replace once the engine is inside the car, best of luck.
 
Damn that sucks, Sorry to hear of your troubles, the problem is the water pump gasket, there is a thread on the water pump issue here in this forum, basically it's a Ford Duratec engine design, the water pump is internal to the engine, and the gasket between the water pump and engine fails around 100k, allowing the coolant into the engine, by doing the flush the dealer compounded the problem by basically pressure forcing the coolant into your engine. Thus your engine wouldn't start, they basically screwed up and made it worse by suggesting the flush and trying to cover their ass now. I would not go with the 93k UNLESS they replace the water pump with a new one, also I highly recommend going thru the water pump replacement thread in the how to section, there are other parts that you should replace if you go with the dealers 93k engine, a lot easier to change while the engine is out in the open, it's a pain in the ass to replace once the engine is inside the car, best of luck.

Thanks Batmancx!

I forgot to mention that the water pump was replaced before I bought the car.
So basically when I left the car at the dealership, the car already had the newer water pump. The problem here maybe, the dealer did not know the water + coolant mixture was actually intentionally put there by the previous owner (and/or her mechanics).
 
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This Dealership story stinks.

I presume you literally drove in a working car with no error codes. They broke it.

Flushing coolant should not break your engine. They messed something up.

Since you bought the car only a few months ago, I assume you had it pass an inspection/smog check. This means no error codes were present or had been present for the past several days.

While coolant in the engine oil is a known problem with these engines, it may have been occurring, but flushing the coolant would not have triggered a massive failure like a starter and blown headgaskets.
 
Go independent. Dealers charge very high labour rates, and not always getting the best deal on parts.
 
Something doesn’t sound right.

Why would 80% water/20% coolant be any different regarding leaks than any other mixture ratio? If anything, more water would be more likely to leak due to being thinner(at least based on my experience with the old green coolant).

How do they know 1 and 3 pistons are cleaner than the others? Did they pull the plugs and send a scope down into the cylinders? In order to do that, they would have to pull the intake off since 1,2,3 are nearest the firewall.

I don’t see how Full coolant or just below full coolant would have any effect on what leaks into the engine. If there’s a leak at the headgasket, regardless of where the coolant is in the overflow tank(low, full, in-between), there is coolant in the cylinder head(and thus through the head gasket).

When the vehicle is up to operating temperature, it’s under pressure and can force coolant into the cylinders if there’s a head gasket leak.

If coolant is leaking into the cylinders when the vehicle is not running, there is risk that you could hydrolock the engine. Depending on how the engine starts, that could cause internal engine damage(like bent rods). I suppose that’s what could have caused them to think the starter was bad. If a cylinder was full of coolant, it could prevent the engine from turning over. That could have saved your engine from more damage. The starter could have gone bad when they had it, but it does seem fishy that it would go out when it’s in their hands.

Things aren’t adding up here.
 
Definitely would seek an independent appraisal of the situation. I agree "things aren't adding up here."
 
Something doesnt sound right.

Why would 80% water/20% coolant be any different regarding leaks than any other mixture ratio? If anything, more water would be more likely to leak due to being thinner(at least based on my experience with the old green coolant).

How do they know 1 and 3 pistons are cleaner than the others? Did they pull the plugs and send a scope down into the cylinders? In order to do that, they would have to pull the intake off since 1,2,3 are nearest the firewall.

I dont see how Full coolant or just below full coolant would have any effect on what leaks into the engine. If theres a leak at the headgasket, regardless of where the coolant is in the overflow tank(low, full, in-between), there is coolant in the cylinder head(and thus through the head gasket).

When the vehicle is up to operating temperature, its under pressure and can force coolant into the cylinders if theres a head gasket leak.

If coolant is leaking into the cylinders when the vehicle is not running, there is risk that you could hydrolock the engine. Depending on how the engine starts, that could cause internal engine damage(like bent rods). I suppose thats what could have caused them to think the starter was bad. If a cylinder was full of coolant, it could prevent the engine from turning over. That could have saved your engine from more damage. The starter could have gone bad when they had it, but it does seem fishy that it would go out when its in their hands.

Things arent adding up here.

Thanks Odrapnew!
The "coolant is leaking into the cylinders when the vehicle is not running" seems very logical to me.
But why it did not leak with the old liquid (supposed that water was in coolant before they had the car)?
And now with the mix (20% coolant 80% water), the coolant level in the reservoir is stable (or down slightly - unnoticeable).



I have no idea what they did to check the 1 and 3 pistons. They just told me that.

"If a cylinder was full of coolant, it could prevent the engine from turning over. That could have saved your engine from more damage."
Lets assume this is the case, do you know what they could do to drain the coolant from the cylinder?

They said that after installing the new starter, they tested the pressure and only one piston (5th I guess) had less than 30 pounds, the rest were good.

After a week, the burning sell still exists, so I think the leak is still there. The car was surely damaged at the dealership, I am just not sure how big that is.
I will comeback to them, but with limited hope.

Do you think something like "Steal Seal" could fix the issue?
Do you think I can just keep the car as current status, is it safe to drive? My wife drive 10 miles a day, mainly picking kids from schools.

I asked couple of independent repair shops, the cost to replace the engine is around $2500. Still a lot.
 
Ditto what Kornholio said, except for the "s" on the end of the link. Its Car-part.com to search local salvage vendors.
But a low mileage complete engine assembly from a reputable salvage vendor who will deliver it to a mechanic of your choice.
I might advise not to use a dealer to get this done. Use a reputable mechanic.
The combination of non-dealer, and a used engine will save you thousands.
--
Also, the whole "if coolant level is at full it will leak into the engine" is untrue. I'm not sure where that myth started, but this is yet another
reason the internet is not to be trusted. The coolant will however leak into the engine on this motor when the water pump goes out. When that happens,
you do need an engine, unfortunately. Fingers crossed that doesn't happen to me, but if it does, I guess a low mileage used engine will be in order.
 
Ditto what Kornholio said, except for the "s" on the end of the link. Its Car-part.com to search local salvage vendors.
But a low mileage complete engine assembly from a reputable salvage vendor who will deliver it to a mechanic of your choice.
I might advise not to use a dealer to get this done. Use a reputable mechanic.
The combination of non-dealer, and a used engine will save you thousands.
--
Also, the whole "if coolant level is at full it will leak into the engine" is untrue. I'm not sure where that myth started, but this is yet another
reason the internet is not to be trusted.
The coolant will however leak into the engine on this motor when the water pump goes out. When that happens,
you do need an engine, unfortunately. Fingers crossed that doesn't happen to me, but if it does, I guess a low mileage used engine will be in order.

That’s where I’m confused. If there is a head gasket leak and there is coolant in the overflow tank, it has the potential to leak into the engine. It doesn’t make sense to me that it would leak into the engine when the overflow tank is full and not leak into the engine when it’s below full.
 
If you get the engine from the salvage yard, the one thing that you should do before it goes in is replace the water pump. That is very cheap insurance against failure. The part is less than 100 bucks and maybe a little bit more money for any related parts that need to be replaced when you disassemble the engine.
 
Wow, I hope you can get things straightened out.

Yeah I think there’s a lot of incorrect comments going around on the internet regarding coolant systems. From my understanding you could have a situation where you can have full coolant and have coolant leaking from the headgasket. What is replacing the lost coolant is air…and that air pocket could be in the engine. The coolant level will drop when the system is bled properly and you lose that pocket of air.
 

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