New to ms3. And there any common problems?

iluvmacs

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2003 Protege ES
I've been in the protege forums for years. I'm about ready to give up on the oil burning that so many owners have had problems with. I found a 2009 ms3 with around 50k miles for sale at 13k. I was wondering if there are any common issues with the car that I should be aware of before I get stuck like I did with my protege. For example, oil burning, turbo wear, etc.).

Yes, I need to search but quick answers or posts of threads would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!
 
Ok I had some time to research. I saw two issues. One was the cam chain tensioner being loose at cold startup, likely due to lack of oil pressure to fill the tensioner. That doesn't seem like a big deal but I could be wrong.

The next issue I found was oil burning from the turbo lube discharge. I saw lots of discussion that reminded me of the same problem on the ms protege and even the non turbo cars. Everyone is quick to blame the pcv, which I find is pretty much identical to all other modern cars.

If the oil drain doesn't work due to high crankcase pressure, it's not because of the pcv. It's because the cylinders and rings are not sealed and lots of blow by is pressurizing the crankcase.

I've been dealing with this issue for almost 10 years with my protege and it has me about done and looking for a different car. I was looking at the ms3 but it sounds like Mazda has not built an engine that can take boost and high rod angles for 100k miles. My engine has been rebuilt 3 times and even with perfectly gapped rings it's burning oil. The cylinders have some taper and ovality that gets worse at BDC.


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Stroking the 1.8 to 2.0 reduces the rod length and increases the force on the cylinder side walls. Stroking up to 2.3 is probably even worse.

Point of this is just that I think people spend way too much time blaming the turbo seals or the pcv when the engine needs to be rebuilt.

A simple 1.8 100 hp engine should last a long time. A 260 hp turbo high stroke and highly revved engine should not. It should need a rebuild much earlier than a non performance engine and I think that's the problem we all have with burning oil.


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Actually, the "smoking turbo" issue is due to an improperly designed crank case ventillation system on gen 1 MS3's. Mazda has a retrofit kit that vents to a different location that relieves the pressure differential. That kit is expensive.

There are several work arounds that may work. I've never had the problem, even with mods in my signature below. Because I've been using two of those work arounds, it may explain my good luck, even with the 3" catless downpipe and race pipe.

1. Increase oil viscosity. Most people have switched to 5w40 full synthetic oil. Mazda also now recommends that. The favorite is Shell Rotella T6, which is actually a diesel detergent formulation full synthetic.

2. Raise idle rpm +200. You need an aftermarket tuning solution to do this. I use Hypertech. It also provides a nice increase in power safely with intake and exhaust mods.

3. There is an inexpensive restrictor banjo bolt replacement for the turbo oil line. I've not done that because #1 and #2 are working for me at 130,000 miles. I am the original owner of my '08.

Whatever may be the cause of the issue on Proteges is not what we have here. Cylinder and piston ring wear is not the cause of this issue.

The second issue is a defect in the variable valve timing tensioner. This was the subject of a recall.

You might want to check the service records on your car to see if the VVT recall was done and if you have the upgraded PVC system. It involves a new valve cover and relocation of the PVC lines.

A third issue is a marginal high pressure fuel pump. We have high pressure direct injection at pressures that exceed 1700 psi at full throttle and high load conditions. The pump usually does fine if there are no additional power mods to the engine. But increase intake and exhaust side flow, especially a 3" downpipe, or raise boost, and the stock pump can't keep up. You will need upgraded high pressure fuel pump internals with a larger piston and cylinder to keep pressure above the minimum of 1600 psi under high load. Otherwise you will damage the engine.

These engines are strong. The stock block is good for about 400 wheel horsepower before needing forged rods, pistons and crank. I am at 300 wheel horsepower with modest mods. That is about 350 at the crank or about 80 horsepower above stock and have an ultra reliable car.

Visit the masdaspeed forum website and you will see that I have one of the mildest power mods car there. Literally hundreds, if not thousands of members are running larger turbos, high flow manifolds, very high boost, sophisticated custom Cobb Access Port tuned setups including ethanol fuel blends at much higher 400+ wheel horsepower and doing so reliably. Some with lityle more than forged internals are pushing as much as 800 wheel horsepower.

On this board with more modest mods like mine you will find it is not unusual for first generation MS3 csrs and MS6 cars to have 250,000 miles on the original engines.
 
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Thanks for the reply. Sounds like I shouldn't skip over the ms3 as a reliable and fun car to upgrade to from my protege.
 
You might also want to know that this engine is designed for torque, low end grunt, and not high end output. The small K04 produces incredibly fast spool up and high torque from 2,500 rpm to 5,500 rpm. But, on stock tune the throttle body starts closing at that point, boost tapers down, and power falls off. This is Mazda's way of protecting the small turbo's 5mm center shaft from excessive heat from trying to push it beyond its flow map. On stock tune above 5,500 rpm it just makes heat, like a flame thrower. The cam lobe profile is matched to the lower rpm torque curve of the turbo.

Aftermarket tunes make changes in timing advance, air/fuel ratio, boost and the relationship of those factors to each other in determining when to adjust one or the other to maintain or build power above 5,500 rpm up to redline, but this is not a high rpm peak power engine. In fact we recommend against going full throttle below 3,000 rpm, especially with power mods because the torque is so high that it can actually bend connecting rods unless you tune to keep it at stock levels. This is not a torqueless Honda relying on high rpm to make power.

I don't burn a drop of oil between changes, BTW, and don't think most here do either. I still have 180-185 psi compression across the board at 130,000 miles, down only 10 points from new 8 years ago. All engines will eventually develop loss of compression from ring and cylinder wall wear, but that does not appear to be accererated with this engine.
 
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It has throttle by wire? Ugh, I like a cable so I always have control.

Thanks for the feedback. I'm sure going from 130 hp peak to 250ish I won't give a crap what rpm the torque is.
 
Oh, but you will care! In a good way. There is so much torque that in first and second gear the stock ECU map reduces it to control torque steer. Aftermarket tunes which defeat that torque limitation will let you roast the tires at will by just going full throttle too soon. You have to really feather the throttle in first or the tires just go up in smoke. It will make you smile until you realize tires ain't cheap and then you learn to be more gentle with the go pedal.
 
You really can't keep a direct injection high output, high boost, high compression turbo engine safe except by ECU control, including throttle. Bad things can happen in nanoseconds. The ECU nanny is very protective, but it keeps you from ventilating the block with pistons getting airborne.
 
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I guess I'm just getting too old for this fancy nanny computer stuff. Maybe I should put a kl in the protege.


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Can we search for members based on location? I'm wondering if there are any ms3 owners in Charlotte that would go with me to check it out.

Just checked the car fax and it was a repo from 2013 and hasn't been driven much. The dealer told me it felt a little underpowered eye he got it so took it to the dealer. They replaced the turbo. What are the chances that it's just the turbo that was bad??


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Dealers lie. You do need to have it checked out to make sure it has not been abused, modded improperly and returned to stock or some such. It's probably fine. I'd want to have them let me take it to an independent shop for static compression, cylinder leak down and a ECU datalog to check for AFR, full boost, and for high pressure fuel pump rail pressure.

Even if the salesman is not lying, most of them know nothing about our model. They didn't sell many MS3s and don't see many. Most sales guys are not into the technical aspects of just how different the Speed 3's power train is compared to the regular 3.
 
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These cars suffer from sludge accumulation from a poorly designed PCV/oil separator. And many believe it's the exact same issue plaguing MSP owners. In short, Mazda used the same PCV/oil separator designed for NA instead of optimizing for their turbo applications. In fact, the MS3 oil separator is the same part ID between turbo and NA.

Fuel dilution and carb deposits are also an issue. If going with a first gen MS3, get the OEM PCV vent kit/valve cover breather. And get an oil restrictor bolt for the turbo if it's pre-08.5 MS3. Later models went to a single oil passage in the turbo which reduces stress on its seals. Using a high detergent oil with regular 3-4K changes, seem to help limit sludge/soot accumulation in the crank case and premature breakdown of the oil. But without the above modifications, including catch can, these cars tend to develop soot on the oil control rings and unusually high buildup on the intake valves/runners.

Mine has made it to 170K and still has 180 compression all around. It's a good car, but I wish I had done a high detergent synthetic with catch can from the get-go. Penzoil dino oil with 5K oil change intervals wasn't enough to prevent the oil consumption I have now.

Hope that helps.
 
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