2013~2016 CX-5 Balance Shaft Delete

I don't think anyone is being negative but more or less stating their opinion as why this idea could potentially end bad(not saying it will, just throwing ideas from a different perspective). I personally do not wish to do such modifications to my daily driver for reasons previously mentioned, if the OP wants to proceed with this then I am definitely interested in hearing his results from beginning to end.
 
4G63T,

I've owned both a 2013 CX5 Sport 2.0 FWD auto and now a 2014 Touring FWD auto. The difference in fuel mileage between them was not that great. The 2.0 had about a 2 mpg advantage over my current 2.5 and it was mostly in stop and go driving. So knowing this fact it's highly unlikely that removing the balance shafts is going to make the 2.5 engine as efficient as the smaller 2.0 engine. This means that its safe to assume that you would not see a 5 mpg increase by deleting the balance shafts on a 2.5 liter Skyactiv engine. You might however notice slightly better off the line acceleration due to the engine not having to get the extra rotational eneria going upon accelerating.
 
I posted this in another thread but thought to share it here to as there is an interesting test done: http://metrompg.com/posts/efficiency-mods.htm

The Alternator Disable test done shows a ~10% improvement in MPG’s. How much more resistance or harder can it be to spin an alternator compared to balancer unit? If the Mazda 2.3 was dynoed at 3 hp gain from removing the balancer unit and it was tested an estimated 5.4 hp needed to spin the alternator at 40 mph on the metro then there probably will be some gain similar or more removing the bs.

Also have you guys ever tried a Wrist Exerciser Gyro before? This little thing has way less weight/mass than the balancer unit shafts and when spinning thousands of rpms it creates a lot of resistance on your wrist. Why wouldnt the bigger balance shaft not effect the motor enough to see gains worth doing?

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I’m not planning on doing bs delete any time soon as i only have 2300 miles on my car and no confirmed method of deleting it. I'm just sharing ideas, thoughts, possibilities etc. to get owners minds thinking and possibly the vendors attentions for a kit..
 
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The Alternator Disable test done shows a ~10% improvement in MPG’s. How much more resistance or harder can it be to spin an alternator compared to balancer unit?


Not a good comparison. The alternator is doing actual work, balance shafts are just spinning on a cushion of oil. If you have ever pedaled a stationary bicycle hooked up to an alternator and a simple switch with a light bulb, you know firsthand how much work it takes to light the bulb. As soon as the light is switched on the load goes way up.



If the Mazda 2.3 was dynoed at 3 hp gain from removing the balancer unit and it was tested an estimated 5.4 hp needed to spin the alternator at 40 mph on the metro then there probably will be some gain similar or more removing the bs.

No, and to understand why you need to understand that an inertia dyno does not actually measure HP, it tries to derive HP by measuring how fast it can spin up a heavy drum. It's necessary to include a number of fudge factors in the calculations to account for things like the rotating mass of the engine. Removing the balance shaft will allow the engine to spin up faster, mostly in the lower gears or in neutral, but it will not allow the rear wheels to output ANY more HP because HP is a steady state measurement.


Also have you guys ever tried a Wrist Exerciser Gyro before? This little thing has way less weight/mass than the balancer unit shafts and when spinning thousands of rpms it creates a lot of resistance on your wrist. Why wouldnt the bigger balance shaft not effect the motor enough to see gains worth doing?

I have three of those wrist gyro's and they are really cool. I use them to keep my forearms strong for motorcycle riding. But there is only resistance because, to keep it spinning, you constantly have to rotate the axis of the gyro in an elliptical orbit. The balance shafts in an engine never change direction relative to the engine. But this is an interesting point because the balance shafts will offer resistance to the vehicle turning or rotating in any direction except a rotation that has the same axis as the balance shafts. In a transversely mounted engine, this would be the pitch of the vehicle (where the balance shaft would NOT impede the motion of the vehicle). When making an abrupt tight turn, the balance shafts would offer resistance to the natural tendency of the car to have body roll. This is a good thing but it would not cause the vehicle to consume more fuel. Likewise, when making a tight turn, the balance shafts would resist the forces trying to turn the vehicle (yaw). This is a bad thing (reduces the nimble feeling of the steering) and causes the tires to work harder to maintain a given radius of turn at a given speed but it would not directly put significantly more load on the gears driving the balance shafts (because they are floating on a cushion of oil). There would be a slightly higher load placed on the engine due to the energy consumed by the tires forcing the car to yaw.

On the other hand, gyroscopic forces add stability to the vehicle. This can be a good thing (for example in assisting the vehicle to tract straight on glaze ice). But for racing purposes there would be a slight handling advantage to not have these gyroscopic forces present and also to allow the engine to spin up slightly faster under acceleration.

But no, removing them will not transform the car in any obvious manner except for the additional vibration (which is why they put them on there in the first place).
 
^^So why did I gain ~5 MPG’s on the sentra? I did the correct calculation by filling up full tank and dividing gal filled with miles travelled and reset trip meter and repeat each fill up. I have no reason to make this up.

I had the following “power" modifications done: AEM Cold Air Intake, Nismo Cat-back exhaust, Nismo Exhaust manifold. The Sentra had two catalytic converters one was with the header and the other in the midpipe similar to the cx-5. The nismo exhaust manifold was with the cat delete. The 5 mpg increase happened with the bs delete which I took out way after those mods were done.
 
^^So why did I gain ~5 MPGs on the sentra? I did the correct calculation by filling up full tank and dividing gal filled with miles travelled and reset trip meter and repeat each fill up. I have no reason to make this up.

We're not saying you are making it up. In order to get a more accurate indication of wether or not you actually were getting a 5+ mpg improvement with just the BS delete; you would need to track your mileage over a long period of time (multiple fill ups) and you would need to duplicate the conditions too. You are also comparing a Nissan engine of an older less efficient design to a much more modern Mazda Skyactiv design of which internal frictional losses are much improved. To my earlier point the Skyactiv 2.0 does not have balance shafts so since the Skyactive 2.5 is the most similar to that engine, it's safe to assume that the 2.5 will not improve by 5 mpg because there is only about a 2 mpg difference between them in real world driving.
 
We're not saying you are making it up. In order to get a more accurate indication of wether or not you actually were getting a 5+ mpg improvement with just the BS delete; you would need to track your mileage over a long period of time (multiple fill ups) and you would need to duplicate the conditions too. You are also comparing a Nissan engine of an older less efficient design to a much more modern Mazda Skyactiv design of which internal frictional losses are much improved. To my earlier point the Skyactiv 2.0 does not have balance shafts so since the Skyactive 2.5 is the most similar to that engine, it's safe to assume that the 2.5 will not improve by 5 mpg because there is only about a 2 mpg difference between them in real world driving.

I was getting between 190-210 miles per 10 gal fill up with BS and when removed I immediately started getting 240 - 260 MPG’s per 10 gal . I used to wait until the fuel light came on before filling and on the Sentra it would be around ~10 . I only put about 5,000 miles before having an argument with a tree and the tree winning. The car had 15k miles when I removed the BS and 20k when totaled.

I understand what your saying about different car motors and technologies etc... between the old Nissan and new Mazda. But if my assumption is correct about our current balance shaft requiring same energy as the Sentra's to spin, similar gains could be possible. Remember those old school bicycles with the little generators that would attach to the rim/tire? Well when attached immediately you felt that slight resistance. Well as slight as it was, you still needed to pedal slightly harder and your legs felt it after a while. The resistance is not the “bearing” part but the balancer shaft’s “unbalanced mass" profile and gear to the other shaft with “unbalanced mass” profile.

Here is my thought about the 2.0 vs the 2.5 motor. The 2.5 motor from my assumption makes more power throughout the rev range, load and throttle input compared to the 2.0 . So maybe the 2.5 requiring slightly less throttle input to accelerate or cruise is better suited in a CUV than the 2.0 requiring slightly more for the same rate of acceleration or cruise. For example to accelerate at X velocity on the 2.5 requires 10% throttle while on the 2.0 requires 18% . But if we can modify the 2.5 such as the BS it might reduce fuel consumption more than the unmodified 2.0 because the motor is better suited for the size/weight of the CX-5. What are your thoughts?
 
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The resistance is not the “bearing” part but the balancer shaft’s “unbalanced mass" profile and gear to the other shaft with “unbalanced mass” profile.

No, the unbalanced mass does not add resistance to the assembly, it simply cancels out the unbalanced nature of the other moving parts of the engine. When the balance shafts are spinning at a steady state speed (like cruising down the highway) there is very little resistance added (all of it caused by friction between the polished gear faces and fluid friction in the bearings). When under acceleration that is when the balance shaft adds a significant load to the engine because the rotating mass must be accelerated.

For example to accelerate at X velocity on the 2.5 requires 10% throttle while on the 2.0 requires 18% . But if we can modify the 2.5 such as the BS it might reduce fuel consumption more than the unmodified 2.0 because the motor is better suited for the size/weight of the CX-5. What are your thoughts?

Your numbers are not close to being realistic. Why would the 2.5L accelerate at the same rate as the 2.0L with only 10% throttle vs. the 2.0L with almost double that amount? Your numbers would be in the ballpark if the 2.5L had nearly double the output of the 2.0L. However, the output is only about 25% more.

Furthermore, speaking objectively, from an engineering/efficiency standpoint, the 2.0L is the better suited engine To the size/weight of the CX-5 because it can run more often in the most thermodynamically efficient portion of it's power range. It's very inefficient to have an engine lightly loaded in terms of fuel consumed/work accomplished and, even with the little 2.0L, I am almost always between 20%-50% throttle. I spend less than 1/10th of 1% at wide open throttle.

The gentleman from Massachusetts is exactly right, most of the difference in fuel consumption between the 2.0L and the 2.5L is not due to the balance shaft but the displacement difference. The 2.5L engine has a longer stroke, a bigger bore and most of the large bearings have more surface area. This means there are higher piston speeds at the same rpm, more ring friction and more bearing friction. In addition to those factors is the fact that the 2.0L has a slightly more thermodynamically efficient shape to the combustion area. The smaller engine warms up more quickly too.

The lack of a balance shaft offers a very minor contribution to the higher mpg's of the 2.0L engine. Don't expect your highway mpg's to change perceptibly with it's removal and your city mpg's will see a slight increase if you are careful and methodical in your mpg comparisons.
 
We've had our guesses and theories put forthwith. I want to see some real data from a legitimate dyno runs from the same engine with and without the balance shafts. Ed
 
We've had our guesses and theories put forthwith. I want to see some real data from a legitimate dyno runs from the same engine with and without the balance shafts. Ed

It's pretty simple physics that could be calculated quite accurately knowing the size and weight of the parts, and the amount of gear and bearing friction with a given type of oil. The potential HP gains are there but they are very small.

As I've already said, an inertia dynamometer cannot accurately measure the gains because the result will vary widely depending upon which gear the dyno operator chooses to use for the dyno run. So, while you will get a number, it's pretty meaningless because it's gear dependent. The lower the gear, the higher the reported gains. It's not measuring HP.
 
Make some runs on a 1/8 mile or 1/4 mile drag strip if you really want to check for increased power. Keep the weather and traction conditions similar and make a few runs before and after. I've done that in the past when I was single and free and wanted to test different modifications and see if they made any difference. Most tracks have a few nights where you can bring any vehicle you have for the fun of it. I wouldn't do this with my CX5 now but back in the day I might have. With increased trap speeds comes increased horsepower and with increased 60-foot times comes increased torque to the wheels or reduced rotational mass and or weight to overcome. You'll be amazed how much temperature effects your 1/4-mile times and for those who want to learn something or have some fun, the drag strip is the place. The one near me also has a scale to weigh your vehicle so you'll know exactly how heavy or light your vehicle is in comparison to others or how much weight you gained or lost.

Mike is right about dynamometers; the problem with them is they aren't really comparable from one to the next. Drag times can be comparable if the conditions are the same and the elevation is similar for non-forced induction. I've seen some really weird things at a track from 11 second diesel pickup trucks to a 10 second full sized box ice cream truck and big rigs too. I've seen vehicles as slow as 20 seconds in the 1/4-mile to an insane Buick Grand National run back to back 10-second 1/4 mile times with a 6 cylinder engine. Pretty interesting to watch once every few years.
 
No, the unbalanced mass does not add resistance to the assembly, it simply cancels out the unbalanced nature of the other moving parts of the engine. When the balance shafts are spinning at a steady state speed (like cruising down the highway) there is very little resistance added (all of it caused by friction between the polished gear faces and fluid friction in the bearings). When under acceleration that is when the balance shaft adds a significant load to the engine because the rotating mass must be accelerated.

Ok so then losing that rotating mass under acceleration is still a gain dont you think? Less energy wasted spinning the BS that can now be applied to the wheels.


Your numbers are not close to being realistic. Why would the 2.5L accelerate at the same rate as the 2.0L with only 10% throttle vs. the 2.0L with almost double that amount? Your numbers would be in the ballpark if the 2.5L had nearly double the output of the 2.0L. However, the output is only about 25% more.

I just made those numbers up as an talking point. But if you want to use 25% . Then lets say the 2.5 uses 10% throttle for X acceleration or cruising then the 2.0 uses 12.5% . The 2.0 at 12.5% still gets better MPGs but what if the Balance shaft removal of the CX-5 drops the 2.5L to 8% then maybe it would be enough to meet or beat the 2.0L ?

Furthermore, speaking objectively, from an engineering/efficiency standpoint, the 2.0L is the better suited engine To the size/weight of the CX-5 because it can run more often in the most thermodynamically efficient portion of it's power range. It's very inefficient to have an engine lightly loaded in terms of fuel consumed/work accomplished and, even with the little 2.0L, I am almost always between 20%-50% throttle. I spend less than 1/10th of 1% at wide open throttle.

^How do you know that? One could argue that the 2.0L is unable to handle the weight/size of he CX-5 thats why its forced to be driven in the efficiency range while the 2.5L can operate comfortably in the lower rpms ...

The gentleman from Massachusetts is exactly right, most of the difference in fuel consumption between the 2.0L and the 2.5L is not due to the balance shaft but the displacement difference. The 2.5L engine has a longer stroke, a bigger bore and most of the large bearings have more surface area. This means there are higher piston speeds at the same rpm, more ring friction and more bearing friction. In addition to those factors is the fact that the 2.0L has a slightly more thermodynamically efficient shape to the combustion area. The smaller engine warms up more quickly too.

Are you saying that the shape of the combustion area is different between the 2.0 and 2.5 ? According to this guys the shape is exactly the same scaled up slightly. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNtS8qyjIJU

The lack of a balance shaft offers a very minor contribution to the higher mpg's of the 2.0L engine. Don't expect your highway mpg's to change perceptibly with it's removal and your city mpg's will see a slight increase if you are careful and methodical in your mpg comparisons.

Im not arguing that the lack of BS on the 2.0Ls motor contributes to its higher MPGs. But rather that the BS in the 2.5 may be holding it back from being something completely better that its current stage and a slight possibility surpass the 2.0L . Only one way to find out though.
 
We've had our guesses and theories put forthwith. I want to see some real data from a legitimate dyno runs from the same engine with and without the balance shafts. Ed

First we need to figure out how to remove the BS . The track times is the easy part.
 
I agree that you'll never know for sure until you try. But the idea that it will get mileage equal to the 2.0 after removing the BS is something I would bet against. And getting the 5 mpg improvement as with the cited old Nissan? IOW, the 2.5 would get better mileage than the 2.5. Extremely unlikely IMHO. And it would make corporate Mazda a pack of idiots for not producing the 2.5 w/o the BS.
 
Ok so then losing that rotating mass under acceleration is still a gain dont you think? Less energy wasted spinning the BS that can now be applied to the wheels.

Yes, that's true. The actual HP gains are miniscule because they are limited to the reduced friction of removing the BS. But the acceleration gains, while still small, are more relevant mostly due to the decrease in rotational inertia. The gain will be greatest in lower gears due to the fact that the engine rpm's accelerate more slowly in higher gears and therefore rotational mass has less of an effect.


I just made those numbers up as an talking point. But if you want to use 25% . Then lets say the 2.5 uses 10% throttle for X acceleration or cruising then the 2.0 uses 12.5% . The 2.0 at 12.5% still gets better MPG’s but what if the Balance shaft removal of the CX-5 drops the 2.5L to 8% then maybe it would be enough to meet or beat the 2.0L ?

For reasons already explained, that is not a rational expectation.


^How do you know that? One could argue that the 2.0L is unable to handle the weight/size of he CX-5 thats why its forced to be driven in the efficiency range while the 2.5L can operate comfortably in the lower rpms ...

The argument that the 2.0L is "unable to handle the weight/size of the CX-5" is nonsensical. Your entire theory is that the 2.5L could become as efficient (or more efficient) than the 2.0L if the 2.5L didn't have BS. However, you admit that the 2.0L is "forced to be driven in it's efficiency range". That is why the 2.0L returns higher mpg, because it spends a higher percentage of it's time in it's most efficient range. I agree that the 2.5L will have lower average rpm's if driven at the same speeds and acceleration profiles but low rpm's are not necessarily synonymous with higher mpg's when comparing two different engines (let alone when comparing two identical engines).



Are you saying that the shape of the combustion area is different between the 2.0 and 2.5 ? According to this guys the shape is exactly the same scaled up slightly. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNtS8qyjIJU

The two engines are not scaled exactly proportionally. In order to limit peak piston speeds, the 2.5L has it's stroke reduced (compared to a perfect geometrical scaling) and it's bore increased. This, amongst other factors, results in less thermodynamic efficiency.


I’m not arguing that the lack of BS on the 2.0L’s motor contributes to its higher MPG’s. But rather that the BS in the 2.5 may be holding it back from being something completely better that its current stage and a slight possibility surpass the 2.0L . Only one way to find out though.

I'm a huge fan of the scientific method and actual data derived from real tests. However, with the question at hand, there is no possibility the 2.5L could return more mpg's in any normal type of drive cycle, balance shaft removed included. There is a drive cycle that could be developed where the 2.5L could meet or exceed the mpg of the 2.0L but it would involve heavy acceleration and/or very high speeds (over 95-100 mph) that are atypical of normal traffic. It would involve a driving style that puts the 2.0L near the edge of it's maximum performance. While the 2.5L could conceivably be more efficient under those conditions, those conditions would only occur but briefly under normal driving. Under all other conditions the 2.0L is going to return higher mpg's. And removing the balance shaft will only make a very small contribution towards attaining the efficiency of the 2.0L. It's simple physics. The engine that is in it's thermodynamic sweet spot the majority of the time is going to win, balance shaft or not.
 
Accidentally ran into this so I thought I would post this in case any one else was interested to know. The link below is the balance shaft removal kit and dyno sheet for the Sentra I used to have. As you can see there was HP and TQ freed everywhere in the rpm range. Heck, your motor will even spend less energy just idling compared to having to spin the balance shafts.

http://jimwolftechnology.com/customer_part_detail.asp?PartID=432

Unfortunately the design of the cx-5 motor requires too much work to remove it as the chain is used for the oil pump. So I’m just going to let it be, unless a vendor created a delete kit which would either provide a new short chain directly to the oil pump or maybe add a idle sprocket in place of the balance shaft. Hope this helps those that were semi interested to show i wasnt making things up. I cant prove the big jump in MPG but the dyno shows power freed everywhere.

QR_BALSHAFT_dyno_tn.jpg
 
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I think based on what you have posted sir, removing the BS would equate to better fuel economy. However, let's talk of purpose. I'm sure the BS is there not to provide just better mileage but for a lot more reasons.

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i ran my 2.3L mazda3 without a balance shaft for nearly 100k. the Balance shaft delete was a popular mod for the naturally aspirated 3 guys.
it allowed the engine to be a bit more free revving (comparable to going from a stock flywheel to a lighter flywheel) wasn't much of a hp gain nor did i see a huge mpg gain.
 
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