Weird steering

woot woot

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Mazda 2
Hey guys had my coil overs in for about a month now and have noticed something weird when taking corners quite hard. Say if i take a hard turn left, when i straighten up, the car will be going straight but the steering wheel will be angled slightly to the left and this does the same thing when turning right.

It will reset after a while and also does it after turning off the car and starting it again. I have no idea what is causing it. I have checked the bolts from the suspension and all seem tight, my last thoughts were to get another alignment to see if the toe is correct, but the standard tires i took off the car after having them on for the whole month showed no uneven wear at all. The car does not pull to either side and will still go dead straight.

Anyone got any tips?
 
First a few questions to take better guesses/clarify:

-How far off when you say "angled slightly?" As in: if you were to mark your steering wheel centerline at the 12 o'clock position, with a matching mark on the dash, when you are experiencing it being off, how far in mm or inches is it off to either side? You can use some tape on dash/wheel to help gauge it if you need to.

-How long is "after a while?" 20 seconds? 20 minutes? 20 parsecs?

-You said it also does it after turning off the car and starting again... are you just stating that once it immediately starts doing it, you have tried turning it off/restarting, and it continues to do it for the same amount of time as it would if you hadn't restarted? It was worded a bit strange just checking. Frankly restarting shouldn't have anything to do with anything suspension related, our racks are electrically assisted but they don't have any voodoo inside like BMWs with variable ratio racks.




A few potential wild @&% guesses/random thoughts:

-Toe in can have a somewhat similar effect(numbs the turn-in, as a result requires more steering input initially... which also translates to it not being as "precise" right around the straight ahead position. Checking the amount of toe in/out isn't a bad idea. Going from -0.20 total toe to +0.20 total toe can have a huge effect on steering feel/precision in the straight ahead position. Can be checked easily at home as per here: http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/show...ber-bolt-install-tip-string-alignment-at-home


-Maybe steering rack bushings? Normally they would cause some noise or it would be blatantly obvious stuff is shifting around at other times, but it might be a good idea to see if you can force it back and forth by hand where it mounts to the subframe. A rack will move a pretty noticeable amount under heavy loads but I've never experienced a slow return back to center myself. While turning left the rack would theoretically move left, causing the knuckles to both turn right a small degree, meaning requiring another left input to keep it tracking straight once done turning.

-You can rule out rear suspension beam shifting - under a left turn, it would force itself to point to the right(positive thrust angle), requiring counter-steering in the right direction to keep straight afterwards.

-Did you ever have the control arms loosened during the coilover install process? If so for the front bushing(with the bolt that inserts horizontally), was it torqued with the weight of the car on the ground and at ride height? This will induce bushing binding at ride height if it's torqued with the car in the air... I could MAYBE see how the bushings having preload on them could potentially cause a temporary change in ride height(even 5mm has a HUGE effect on toe)... basically the inside body will sit higher for a short amount of time after being unweighted in hard cornering, and driving around it will eventually settle back to normal as it twists and gets stressed back into position(where it's binding at all times). If torqued in the air, the control arm wants to naturally be in the "down" position.

-When turning left, under load, the upper strut mount would want to move outwards(losing camber). If it is a coilover that is reusing stock style rubber mounts, maybe possible they're flexing and shifting around... Upper strut moving outward on the outside(right) only would yield a loss of toe(more toe out), so would require a left input to counter steer assuming it's sticking after a turn. If it's a metal upper mount you can probably discount this entirely.

-Kind of going off the control arm binding theory... know what else can affect ride height? Shock damping. If there is a metric ton of rebound damping just maybe it's giving you a jacking down effect like some autocrossers use to artificially lower ride height during cornering on "street" or "stock" class vehicles. Lots of damping with not enough spring will cause this. If it takes more than about a minute of driving for it to "straighten out" again I'd rule this out. The effects of the car jacking down would go away after 10 to 15 seconds at the most. You can try turning the damping down some to try and rule it out.

-Lower control arm bushings deforming under load on a left turn on the outside wheel would result in an increase of toe(in) on that wheel... meaning to counter it would require a right input. Opposite of your symptoms.

-Check the steering shaft from column to rack at all? I'm assuming you'd hear a clunking if there were play, but play here would cause the correction in the same direction of the turn as you describe, though nothing would give a "delayed" reaction since it's all metal. It can probably be ruled out but is worth checking.



-Or you're just imagining things. Is this always on flat roads? One roads with a crown to them they will always run a bit off center one way or the other due to the car having weight shift toward the lower side, meaning you're trading toe in on one side for toe out on the other or visa versa a tiny amount, meaning the wheel will be slightly off center and pulling would be slim to negligible anyway being a FWD car(in my experience it takes a big screw up in alignment, caster specifically, to actually cause a real pull, or defective tire).

-Out of curiosity have you tried dicking with tire pressures at all just to see if it changes or stays the same? Try airing at 30psi, then try again at 40-45psi just to see if there's a perceivable difference in how long it lasts or how far off it actually goes.



Answer the questions above and maybe I'll try another crack at diagnosing a car from the other end of the world (hi)
 
Ohh dear i posted this in the alignment thread you linked hahahahha

Hahha yeah other side of the world diagnosis is the most effective way of finding things out.
It will angle around at 11 o clock and 1 o clock roughly i will try measure it this week. It will stay at that position for up to 5 mins or until i take a hard corner in the other direction and it kind of settles in the middle again.
When i turn the car off after it had been angled at one side or another. The steering wheel will start at centre again and drive normally, when i turn the car back on. There would be a 5 min wait or so though as i am mostly doing errands and stuff. I have not tried stopping and restarting it yet though, maybe has something to do with it sitting stationary for a few mins
I was planning to get another alignment as i did not get one after the new coils settled over two weeks. I got a alignment the day after putting them in due to time constraints
The rack bushings should still be pretty good. The car has traveled about 20000 kms or about 15000 miles but will check again to see if they are loose at all.
We did not remove the control arm at all during the installation,
The coil over is using a metal upper mount rather than the standard rubber mount.

I need to adjust the preload of the rear shocks as the springs are not captive enough by a few cms. I will address this later this week hopefully. The fronts though were done by a friend that has set up a few cars before but I will shoot him some questions regarding it I am running 8k front springs and 6k rears. But it does take more than a min to correct so I guess that option is out of it. I am only running the front shocks on 3 out of 25 as for street I find it turns great and is comfy. The rears are on zero atm.

The lower control bushing arm theory kind of applies but again should they deform so much being still relatively low milage and I will check the steering rack and the shaft “insert Samual L jackson reference here” for any play.

Yeah the testing is on flat roads ahhaha. I am not that silly to check on cambered or uneven roads. I do a lot of freeway driving and have the pressures set at 32 all round, I can try the 45psi to see if there is a difference.


Thanks for the help and the 1000 word essay hahaha. I will get back with results soon as I have a hillclimb thingy event next weekend hopefully
 
Ohh dear i posted this in the alignment thread you linked hahahahha

Hahha yeah other side of the world diagnosis is the most effective way of finding things out.
It will angle around at 11 o clock and 1 o clock roughly i will try measure it this week. It will stay at that position for up to 5 mins or until i take a hard corner in the other direction and it kind of settles in the middle again.
When i turn the car off after it had been angled at one side or another. The steering wheel will start at centre again and drive normally, when i turn the car back on. There would be a 5 min wait or so though as i am mostly doing errands and stuff. I have not tried stopping and restarting it yet though, maybe has something to do with it sitting stationary for a few mins
I was planning to get another alignment as i did not get one after the new coils settled over two weeks. I got a alignment the day after putting them in due to time constraints
The rack bushings should still be pretty good. The car has traveled about 20000 kms or about 15000 miles but will check again to see if they are loose at all.
We did not remove the control arm at all during the installation,
The coil over is using a metal upper mount rather than the standard rubber.

I need to adjust the preload of the rear shocks as the springs are not captive enough by a few cms. I will address this later this week hopefully. The fronts though were done by a friend that has set up a few cars before but I will shoot him some questions regarding it I am running 8k front springs and 6k rears. But it does take more than a min to correct so I guess that option is out of it. I am only running the front shocks on 3 out of 25 as for street I find it turns great and is comfy. The rears are on zero atm.

The lower control bushing arm theory kind of applies but again should they deform so much being still relatively low milage and I will check the steering rack and the shaft “insert Samual L jackson reference here” for any play.

Yeah the testing is on flat roads ahhaha. I am not that silly to check on cambered or uneven roads. I do a lot of freeway driving and have the pressures set at 32 all round, I can try the 45psi to see if there is a difference.


Thanks for the help and the 1000 word essay hahaha. I will get back with results soon as I have a hillclimb thingy event next weekend hopefully

Loosen the front bolt of the LCA and retorque at ride height to rule that out. You changed ride height which means the LCA is now at a different angle at ride height, so you've induced a small amount of binding. Even if this isn't causing the problem, do it to prevent premature bushing wear. Inspect the bushings visually for cracking and separation in addition to using a pry bar to move them around. Some movement is normal but if you do it and see the bushing splitting or bulging out there could be a problem. Shaking a wheel by hand will only find a super terrible bushing.

Do that before having your alignment checked to rule those out(along w/ steering rack bushings... Test them with a pry bar as well) to start I guess.

One more experiment.. Try inducing the off center wheel right before parking the car. Be careful to drive slowly to not undo it before parking of course. Then see if it continues when driven hours later/next day/ etc.

IF it persists you may be able to check which toe is changing to deduce what is exactly moving around. Check your toe with the string method as a baseline with wheel centered while its been driving straight and write down the numbers for toe left/right...

Then induce the off center wheel and measure for toe again being careful not to undo it. Do this with the steering wheel centered still. If you catch it then toe will be off on either one or both sides. If its off on one side, its an individual component like control arm bushing or strut damping jacking up/down. If its off on both sides (will show up as more toe on one side, less toe on the other), it pretty much has to be the rack/bushings/column/something both sides share.
 
The problem was toe that was out by a fair amount. Camber was also out but getting toe sorted stopped the weird steering. Thanks for the help flatlander
 
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