Frames' Mazda5 Build / Maintenance Thread
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rodslinger
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You know.... I've always changed speakers first then went to head units, amps, etc... I actually changed the head unit first this time around. Used a Pioneer AppRadio. When all was done I had to double-check myself and make sure I didn't accidentally change the speakers too. Night and day difference in sound quality. Made me realize how bad the head unit in the 5 really SUCKS.
^ The common wisdom that is out there is always speakers first, and I don't know why. It doesn't matter how much you spend on speakers, driving them with 7 Watts RMS is going to make them sound crappy. Whereas stock speakers usually sound damn good with a small, simple 40Wx2 (or 40x4) amp.
One of my cars back in the day was a Mazda 929 that I drove for about 6 months with a top of the line Alpine HU, Rockford Fosgate Symmetry EPX2, and 3 RF amps of various sizes (back when RF made good stuff, not Best Buy stuff). Nobody could believe they were listening to stock speakers. Admittedly, they were being powered by like $5k worth of gear, but the point stands that stock speakers can sound good. You could spend ANY amount of money on speakers, and they won't sound good on a low power HU. (in fact, really expensive speakers will sound worse because they often require more power than cheap speakers).
One of my cars back in the day was a Mazda 929 that I drove for about 6 months with a top of the line Alpine HU, Rockford Fosgate Symmetry EPX2, and 3 RF amps of various sizes (back when RF made good stuff, not Best Buy stuff). Nobody could believe they were listening to stock speakers. Admittedly, they were being powered by like $5k worth of gear, but the point stands that stock speakers can sound good. You could spend ANY amount of money on speakers, and they won't sound good on a low power HU. (in fact, really expensive speakers will sound worse because they often require more power than cheap speakers).
Sac is right. Speakers never without an amp, unless they are crappy $10 speakers that love 10W RMS.
I just put sound deadening in the passenger door and spare tire area today. The speaker sounds noticeably better on the right side than on my side now. Of course I just saw first hand the quality of the stock speaker and compared to my VW, it's total crap. I will be replacing them with focal 130AS after I get an amp installed.
I had to put my 5 stereo on hold because the amp I put in my Jetta this weekend was DOA and I spent way too long troubleshooting it.
I went with Raammat and PS ensolite for sound deadening.
I just put sound deadening in the passenger door and spare tire area today. The speaker sounds noticeably better on the right side than on my side now. Of course I just saw first hand the quality of the stock speaker and compared to my VW, it's total crap. I will be replacing them with focal 130AS after I get an amp installed.
I had to put my 5 stereo on hold because the amp I put in my Jetta this weekend was DOA and I spent way too long troubleshooting it.
I went with Raammat and PS ensolite for sound deadening.
I will be getting an amp for the 5 in the coming weeks and after I get that in, And connected to the stock speakers, then I will order another set of Focals as the current set is going in the Jetta.
Since replacing speakers on a MK4 Jetta doors are just about the hardest out there to do, I will see what the stock sound like on the amp. I am doing this in stages since my time is limited. They are some of the better quality OEM speakers out there. Even my father in-law who drives a 100K Lexus and is also an audiophile loves my Jetta's factory speakers. So if I like it fine on amped OEM speakers, I will throw the Focals in the 5 instead.
Since replacing speakers on a MK4 Jetta doors are just about the hardest out there to do, I will see what the stock sound like on the amp. I am doing this in stages since my time is limited. They are some of the better quality OEM speakers out there. Even my father in-law who drives a 100K Lexus and is also an audiophile loves my Jetta's factory speakers. So if I like it fine on amped OEM speakers, I will throw the Focals in the 5 instead.
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I used Frost King for dampening on my Jetta, and now that I have had a chance to compare it to Raammatt BXTII, I would say I will probably use Frost King in the future to save cost, then go with the Ensolite on top of Frost King. Frost King is cheaper, but pretty much the same thing. It is actually thicker, too. The ensolite is good though, I will definitely keep using that.
Bonus points for being able to run over to Home Depot and pick up another pack if I run out too, as opposed to waiting for it to ship.
Bonus points for being able to run over to Home Depot and pick up another pack if I run out too, as opposed to waiting for it to ship.
How did you do your sound deadener? Your mention that you would do ensolite over Frost King in the future makes me think that you primarily used the Frost King as your sound deadener?
Just 10 or 15 years ago that was all we knew about how to deaden and quiet a car: Dynamat, Dynamat, and more Dynamat. Layer on top of layer. On some of my installs I probably spent almost $1k and added 400 lbs to the car.
The new school of thinking is to use CLD (constrained layer damping) materials like Dynamat (or the generic alternatives like Frost King from the Home improvement store) sparingly only over resonant portions of the vehicle structure. CLDs by themselves (even several layers) are not an effective noise barrier.
The more effective noise barrier has been found to be a decoupled limp mass barrier. The most common material is MLV (mass loaded vinyl). A material like ensolite is used to decouple the MLV from the vehicle structure - ensolite is a very poor sound absorber / reducer, that is not it's purpose at all, and adding it on top of MLV or CLD serves absolutely no purpose.
Here is the best reference I've found, at least for having a good summary of the current thinking all in one place.
http://www.sounddeadenershowdown.com
Just 10 or 15 years ago that was all we knew about how to deaden and quiet a car: Dynamat, Dynamat, and more Dynamat. Layer on top of layer. On some of my installs I probably spent almost $1k and added 400 lbs to the car.
The new school of thinking is to use CLD (constrained layer damping) materials like Dynamat (or the generic alternatives like Frost King from the Home improvement store) sparingly only over resonant portions of the vehicle structure. CLDs by themselves (even several layers) are not an effective noise barrier.
The more effective noise barrier has been found to be a decoupled limp mass barrier. The most common material is MLV (mass loaded vinyl). A material like ensolite is used to decouple the MLV from the vehicle structure - ensolite is a very poor sound absorber / reducer, that is not it's purpose at all, and adding it on top of MLV or CLD serves absolutely no purpose.
Here is the best reference I've found, at least for having a good summary of the current thinking all in one place.
http://www.sounddeadenershowdown.com
I read that article probably 100 times last year before I did my Jetta. I tend to obsess over projects. It really is the best starting point for anybody reading this to start if they are curious about sound deadening.
It looks like it's been updated recently.
I actually used another insulating material on top that I also found at Home Depot that I saw guys doing over on Corvette, Saturn, and classic VW forums. It has air pockets in it, but it isn't as effective as cc foam.
I lowered the driving decibles in the Jetta by about 15 db using a combination of that method, rubberizing the wheel wells, and stuffing polyfill into every open space I could find anywhere. It's pretty quiet, (71-74db) even with the intake and 7.5 inch wide tires.
It looks like it's been updated recently.
I actually used another insulating material on top that I also found at Home Depot that I saw guys doing over on Corvette, Saturn, and classic VW forums. It has air pockets in it, but it isn't as effective as cc foam.
I lowered the driving decibles in the Jetta by about 15 db using a combination of that method, rubberizing the wheel wells, and stuffing polyfill into every open space I could find anywhere. It's pretty quiet, (71-74db) even with the intake and 7.5 inch wide tires.
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Looks like things on that site changed a lot actually. They say, CLD then CCF and then MLV on top is no longer optional. Hmmm, I might need to buy some Luxury liner. I was really wanting to do the whole Second Skin Audio treatment, but the cost is quite high. That Luxury Liner looks like a PITA to mount.
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The BXT and ensolite made the speaker in the door sound a lot richer. It did lower the frequency of sound passing through that door as well. So I will probably pass on the mlv. I will measure tomorrow, and again at each stage. Stock, it was running in the mid 80db range.
Most of the sound in my 5 comes from the wheel wells, I would bet I can cut a lot by undercoating the wheel wells and liners. It was good for 3-4 db on the Jetta.
Most of the sound in my 5 comes from the wheel wells, I would bet I can cut a lot by undercoating the wheel wells and liners. It was good for 3-4 db on the Jetta.
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Sorry, I didn't quite understand what you said (or rather, I wanted to confirm).
You wrote CLD>CCF>MLV is no longer OPTIONAL - did you mean this as in "this is the best practice, and if you want to deaden your car, there is no other option" ?
The first time I read it, I mis-read "optimal", like you were saying that CLD>CCF>MLV was no longer the best practice.
Everything I'm seeing says that CLD>CCF>MLV is still best practice.
I got MLV from a local insulation/sound deadening/home theater place for $100 for a 100sqft roll. It's the same as the MLV that you pay 300% to 1000% more for from specialty audio shops online (such as second skin lux liner that you mentioned). I did wind up ordering CCF online because local places didn't have the right stuff, and could barely comprehend what I wanted when I asked if they could get it. (rolleyes)
I appreciate the fact that you've taken objective dB measurements as well. I have the materials to deaden my 5, but have gotten caught up in the turbo system, so haven't installed yet. I will have before & after dB measurements as well. I agree there is a lot of noise coming from wheel wells.
What is your method for measuring dB? (what speed, road surface, mic placement, etc?) I know I can't directly compare my results to you without being on the same road, in the same conditions, with the same measurement equipment, but I'd like to set up my test similar at least.
What is your method for measuring dB? (what speed, road surface, mic placement, etc?) I know I can't directly compare my results to you without being on the same road, in the same conditions, with the same measurement equipment, but I'd like to set up my test similar at least.
I don't mean one is better than the other, but that you still must layer them in that order. That has not changed. They each serve a different purpose so you can't choose one in place of another.
CLD is first layer, then CCF, then MLV on top.
I go out to the roads where I notice how load and how quiet the most, with only me in the car. I just drive as I normally would and measure.I measure in the console area, up near my head and the center of the car about shoulder height. Do it several times and get an idea of the range I am at.
I am going to have to go look at that mlv you suggested. I don't want to pull the carpet up on the Jetta again, but the Mazda the carpet comes up pretty easy so I might want to go that 3 layer route on the 5.
Are you doing a mazdaspeed 3 conversion?
CLD is first layer, then CCF, then MLV on top.
I go out to the roads where I notice how load and how quiet the most, with only me in the car. I just drive as I normally would and measure.I measure in the console area, up near my head and the center of the car about shoulder height. Do it several times and get an idea of the range I am at.
I am going to have to go look at that mlv you suggested. I don't want to pull the carpet up on the Jetta again, but the Mazda the carpet comes up pretty easy so I might want to go that 3 layer route on the 5.
Are you doing a mazdaspeed 3 conversion?
I haven't pulled out the interior of the 5 yet (as I mentioned) but the few pieces I've pulled apart here and there have been real easy - so I'm cautiously optimistic that the majority of the interior will come apart similarly easy for this install.
No, I'm not doing a true mazdaspeed conversion with the DISI engine. The "long story, short" of the mazdaspeed conversion into the 5 is that it is not as easy as it sounds. I'm just turbocharging the 2.5L MZR.
I just did the driver door and wow, the speakers sound night and day better. I had to lower the bass level a little. With that being said, now the tweeters don't keep up anymore, and I have them at +6 treble.
I haven't taken it out to measure sound levels yet because the kids are with me and have colds. But the door woofers sound so much better that I don't really care anymore if the road noise only dropped a smidge.
I'm itching to put the Focals in here now. They would sound so good.
The thing I like about working on Mazda as opposed to German cars is the electrical plugs. They remove really easy. In German cars you pretty much have to break them to get them out.
I haven't taken it out to measure sound levels yet because the kids are with me and have colds. But the door woofers sound so much better that I don't really care anymore if the road noise only dropped a smidge.
I'm itching to put the Focals in here now. They would sound so good.
The thing I like about working on Mazda as opposed to German cars is the electrical plugs. They remove really easy. In German cars you pretty much have to break them to get them out.
I just bought an Alpine MRVF300 4 channel amp for the 5. Looks small enough to fit up under the dashboard or even in the rear right cubby in the trunk.
Got adapters, and harnesses. Looks like the Focals are going in next week when all that stuff comes in.
Got adapters, and harnesses. Looks like the Focals are going in next week when all that stuff comes in.
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