Electronic Gauges,.. Useful Tool or Useless Toy

This is some info from a PM to Installshield 2, about my Ultra Gauge and his Blue Tooth Torque App.

Sounds Like Fun
It sounds like you're really enjoying your new device. My UG has "free" updates too but I have to pay for return shipping,... over $50.
I'm thinking the only real advantage to my unit is that it's a bit more "mountable" in the car, but I don't have a cell phone so I didn't look into any kind of blue-tooth devices.

I was wondering what the minimum phone requirements are to fully utilize your torque app ?? I will be on the market for a cell phone in Sept. when my cable contract runs out and I'm hoping to spend as little as possible.

I would certainly spend the $20- $30 for the app but don't wanna spent an extra $20- $100 a month for the phone contract to run it. (It will be my first cell phone ever,... ha ha.)




Re: Sounds Like Fun
yeah, with torque pro the 'gauge' is actually your phone...the readers you use to hook up to the diagnostic ports are just very simple little devices (you can use all kinds of different types), that are usually less than $25...

the app though...is amazing...because you get constant updates through the dev for free...just like any other app. you're phone will pop up a little box saying the update is available...download it...and you're good to go...

As far as the phones...Its not a very crazy app resource wise...any 'new' android phone will have no problem running (this is not available for Iphone's that i know of, by the way)...The more important thing, phone wise, is which version of android its running. Devs only run updates back a few versions, so if you get a phone running an old version of android, you may have to flash to a newer version in order to start seeing updates again...

I got a Sony Xperia Ion through AT&T almost a year ago...it was free with a contract, and at the time was extremely powerful...its still good today, but newer phones are just getting crazier...i can run torque though with absolutely no problems, and it barely dents battery life too...I'm going to order a mount for the phone this week hopefully, which will make it a little easier to deal with the app while driving....but it has great logs and everythign anyway, so i don't really worry about it right now...i can see everything that happened through graphs after i'm done driving anyway...

The Ion is available through Rogers in Canada, and it currently runs Android 4.0.2 (Ice Cream Sandwich)...the phone is scheduled to get 4.1.2 (jelly bean) this April, which brings it up to the most current version of android...you'll get torque updates with this phone for at least another year or 2 i'd bet...

Aside from the phone..i had all this running in my car for less than $35...including reader shipping from amazon and buying the torque app...because of the nature of the phone, it is much more customizable than any stand alone reader you can find...there are skins and themes, and about 15 different gauge 'styles' to chose from...you can also link the app with your account on the torque forums instantly upload read outs and save data..there are also free telemetry plug-ins that allow all kinds of crazy stats. lateral cornering g's, torque and wheel horsepower figures, very accurate MPG ratings, etc....the gps functionality and everything also works WITHOUT data, so if you get outside of a coverage area, the app still does everything its supposed to...you just can't upload until you get to data or wifi connections...



Re: Sounds Like Fun

As i said, i'm still learning it. It can do just about as much as you can get without actually changing (tuning) the car...you can 15 screens of different gauges haha.

The UG seems like a great device, its a shame that it doesn't read closed loop properly...our ecu's do some weird s***, but i find it hard to believe a 5 dollar app and a generic blue tooth reader is better at reading this stuff than a stand alone product...if it was our ecu's fault...

Guess Who Just Got Volunteered,....


Date: 03-11-2013 12:18:48
Name: UltraGauge

Message:

The OBDII standard defines an ECU parameter that indicates if the vehicle is in closed or open loop. UG simply reads & and relays this status. It is actually more complicated since the standard provides for two independent fuel systems in the same vehicle, each with a loop status parameter. Most vehicles only have the one fuel system and the 2nd parameter is required to return a specified value indicating the parameter is not implemented.
Our guess is that the the Mazda has not correctly handled the 2nd system parameter and therefore UG flags it as open loop. The other application probably works because it does not fully decode both parameters and only decodes the parameter for the 1st fuel system.
While we have many, many test ECUs, we do not have the Mazda so we can't say first hand the source of the issue. Since this issue only appears to be on the Mazda and does not exist on any other gas vehicles, we feel confident the issue is not with UltraGauge. While a "patch" to work around the Mazda defect might be possible, we can't say without more information. To understand more we would need a volunteer in the form of a tech savvy Mazda Volunteer.

Best regards,

UltraGauge Support
www.ultra-gauge.com
Support is available Monday, Wednesday and Friday, 9-5pm Central Time

I have the torque app and I will say this it is by far the best pocket scanner/reader for the money hands down, from telling you how much your trip is costing you (gas used) to how much mpg's your doing avg and instant, and it tells you if your in open or closed loop but I don't know how accurate it is as I believe it reads the o2 voltage (not sure) with the torque app you even get a good amount of sensor readings.....pm your email and I will send you screen shots of what sensors are available for the p5

Unfortunately I have a crapple Ijunk and can't get the app . It's supposed to be pretty nice, I'm tempted to buy a tablet just for it and mount it on the dash

Well,... I've already spent my money so I'm gonna stick with the UG for now and just get an entry level cell with a limited package.

I'd worry about theft if your tablet is mounted to the car,... I suppose you could always take it with you, especially if it's your phone too. You could make a quick release for it or just velcro or something.

Here's my response to UG:

Message:

I'd love to volunteer to help with understanding the relationship between Your device and our wonky ECU.
I've been trying to get information about the technical parameters of our ECU especially the software and how it is set up.
For instance,... the other guys say their gauge registers closed loop in about 20 seconds which is axactly the time it takes for the first O2 sensor to register movement from its initial cold reading of 0.445 Volts.
Apparently our car switches to a MAP (open loop) at about 3100-3500 RPM which would mean the fuel trim should read 0.00 but it doesn't until much closer to red line.
I'm thinking the car has a bunch of different levels of open and closed loop, following a lot of different MAPS not just a single open loop map.
This sounds like a great opportunity to help fully understand my car and probably help out many people on the Mazda forum.
The only thing I've managed to find out about the software is that a guy from the site can flash the ECU to use it for a KL swapped engine.

I would be happy to help out.

Actually,.. That flash may have had to do with the MP3 ECU swap,.. I kinda forget.

Does any one know if any other models have the open loop issue or what models have the same ECU ??
I know something about the MP3 ECU being swapped but I don't know if that swapped ECU has the same issue or if the available "flash" fixes it.

The people at UG want more info.

Here's the latest:


Date: 03-11-2013 14:32:17
Name: UltraGauge

Message:

Paul,

Do you know on which years and models this issue applies?

Best regards,

Message:

Yea,... I know for sure that all P5's have the same issue but they were only available for 2002 and 2003. The regular protege's may have the same issue but I'll have to look into that.

Date: 03-11-2013 14:55:25
Name: UltraGauge

Message:

Paul,

Perhaps the best way to attempt to debug this issue is to create a special version of the existing product which displays the loop status as a separate gauge. The value displayed would correspond to the raw untouced value.

If you are willing to send in your current UltraGauge, we can update it to display this raw value.


UltraGauge Returns
PO BOX 2777
Canyon Lake, TX 78133-0014

Please only send the UltraGauge. Keep all other items such as the windshield mount, bracket and Velcro.

Please use a twist tie to bind the cord.
Write your order number on the shipping label.
Please use a minimum of packing tape.

Once received, we will inspect, update, and test your UltraGauge, and then promptly return it to you.

Best regards,

UltraGauge Support
www.ultra-gauge.com
Support is available Monday, Wednesday and Friday, 9-5pm Central Time
Date: 03-11-2013 15:07:19

Message:

Yea That sounds good, Are you paying for return shipping and should I use fed-ex again for shipping ??
I paid $27.06 USD to have it shipped to me.

I Got Fired !!! I Need A Green Card !!!


Message:

Paul,

Sorry, I did not realize you were not in the USA. If you were in the US, we would cover the shipping to send it back to you. As your are in Canada and the cost of shipping is very high, this may not make sense.
Is there perhaps someone else that is part of your forum and located in the USA, with your enthusiasm, that could assist?

Best regards,

UltraGauge Support
www.ultra-gauge.com
Support is available Monday, Wednesday and Friday, 9-5pm Central Time
Date: 03-11-2013 16:22:56
Name: Paul Brandon

Message:

I'll ask on the site.

tweety2300 said:

Unfortunately I have a crapple Ijunk and can't get the app . It's supposed to be pretty nice, I'm tempted to buy a tablet just for it and mount it on the dash

Click to expand...

i did this and if there was a way i could have it mount in place of my cluster i would so do it....i mean it basically gives you everything minus the fuel level

My UG does fuel level but it won't be as accurate without it registering closed loop. But that doesn't amount to too much inaccuracy.
I wonder why your device doesn't do fuel level,... it knows the MPG all the time by monitoring the fuel flow so it should know how much gas is left.

Maybe they don't want to be held responsible for anyone running out of gas ???

what i mean by fuel level is the actual gauge level, it how ever does give an est of miles of fuel left, you just have to remember to reset it back to 100% when you completely fill it up, i mean it also tells you how much your fuel rate/flow is

OK,... mine isn't calibrated yet (I need to find an accurately measured 3 miles or more somewhere) The alarm went off saying fuel low at a quarter tank,... when I filled up it said I had minus 17 liters left (or maybe that's unleft)) So yea,.. mine's way off.

OK,.... I get what you mean now,... apparently the gas gauge doesn't "report" to our ECU. My UG said the direct fuel monitoring wasn't available when I set mine up. It just calculates the fuel based on fuel used and that can be quite accurate.

Does your torque app show real time O2 readings ??? My UG has a refresh rate of 0.9 seconds,... and that's apparently because our ECU does some sort of caching and it can only report to the unit at my 0.9 second speed. I'm just kinda getting snap shots of the data.

Message:

I'll ask on the site.

Date: 03-11-2013 17:23:45
Name: Paul Brandon

Message:

I've decided I want to do this,... If I pay for Fed-Ex to ship it to you (they don't seem to have border problems) will you update my UG and pay for shipping it back to me ??
The guys in the US said they paid just over $8 for shipping. With return postage for them plus maybe considering my uncashed rebate, that's almost even.
Mean while I've asked two people on the forum who have UG if they are willing to be beta testers.
Here's an e-mail from a site member who really knows his stuff. We're both very interested in doing this.



Re: Guess Who Just Got Volunteered !!!!
awesome man!

lets see where this goes, as with their help we may be able to fully 'crack' the EEC-V ecu, and see what exactly is causing so much confusion between open and closed loop...

They need to be clarified on what our ecu does...as i'm not sure how other computers operated...our ecu's are closed loop biased...they want to run closed loop when ever possible, illustrating their U-LEV nature...for our cars; open loop is just a generic 'enrichhment' protocol...it overrides primary o2 readings, and adds fuel based on a series of correction maps...its effectively 'high load closed loop with correction' if you go by what the stand alone techs will call it...its just fuel and timing maps that 'correct' the mixture based on MAF readings after a specific load and throttle position is surpassed...its NOT controlled by just rpm (i'll do a lot of tests this week to fully verify)...its a combination of rpm, load, and sustained throttle position...you can 'glide' up to 5,000 rpm in 1st gear and hold closed loop...but if you mash the throttle at 2500, by 3200 rpm i hit open loop...i'll log all this soon and see the exact numbers, just to be sure...

any info i can get you, let me know...I can trigger open loop systematically with torque pro...i can see exactly when it comes on, and log the data and give it to them...however, i'm on an Mp3 ecu...it may be very helpful if you pick up this stuff to use with your stock ecu...and see if its different...there is a very significant open/close loop change between just stock and MSP ecus...its likely the Mp3 is in the same situation...

as far as if my elm 327 and torque pro correctly reading open vs. close loop...i don't know for sure...but it falls in line with everything every knowledgeable person has ever said about our computers...the torque app will clearly say 'closed loop using o2' when it should, then switches to 'open loop' and my primary o2 readings switch to 'no data'...until closed loop comes back in...

I wouldn't call BS in either direction just yet...their system is most likely designed for new car's...so its likely they overlooked some older ways of handling this stuff, programming wise...but i highly doubt the torque app is doing anything inconsistent...as i can fully recreate dyno graphs with AFR's that look identical to actual papers people have posted...it'll highlight closed to open loop switching, AFR from start to finish, and torque/power curves that look identical to other real dyno tests...if there is smoke and mirrors anywhere...i'm highly suspect that its on UG's front...not Torque pro's...

Date: 03-12-2013 06:30:56
Name: UltraGauge

Message:

Paul,

The problem with shipping back and forth to Canada is that if the version we send has an issue, then we would need to ship back and forth once more to provide a replacement. The shipping just adds up too quickly.

I noted that there is mention of an elm 327. If the person has software that allows access to raw PID parameters, then perhaps we can clarify this issue with the elm 327. To proceed the elm would need to continually read and log PID 3 (Fuel Status).
The vehicle will be OPEN loop when cold and after a few minutes will go closed loop.

Best regards,

UltraGauge Support
www.ultra-gauge.com
Support is available Monday, Wednesday and Friday, 9-5pm Central Time
Date: 03-12-2013 14:31:33
Name: Paul Brandon

Message:

Re: About Your Torque App
I'm having a hard time reading what exactly they are saying haha...

of course the Elm 327 is reading PIDs???...thats the only thing a diagnostic port does...its just a standardized port (like a USB port) for specific devices to 'listen' to a government passed automotive ecu...

and yes...the Torque app is the software that has access NOTHING but raw PID parameters...the reader itself doesn't do anything other than collect those parameters and transmit them via Bluetooth...without the Torque app, you can't get anything out of the elm...so all of this information the app displays...is derived precisely from raw PID data...

which is why there are so many 'hidden' things with Torque...by default it has all the standard PID locations and calibrations...government imposed stuff...so it reads most of what the EEC-V has...but some more specific stuff isn't available without 'cracking' the PID layout of the EEC-V...for example our engines do have an oil pressure sensor, and the ECU is aware of it...but the PID layout for it is unknown by Torque...if i could figure that out, i could find and calibrate a oil pressure gauge for the app...but i have a analog gauge for that anyway...

when you look at the plug-in lists for the app online...there are many different cars that have had someone go through and make a full PID layout for it...the Mazdaspeed 3 is one of them...so with the plug in you get every single piece of data the factory mazdaspeed 3 ecu reads...that isn't the case for our cars...yet, at least...

As far as open/closed loop...i don't know exactly what it does to determine the switch...it mentions 'correction' on the gauge...i can line up my fuel system status gauge with the Fuel trim % gauge, which reads information from the primary o2 sensor...when my fuel status lights up for open loop (and it says 'using correction' or something underneath it), i also see my fuel trim % gets 'no data'...INSTANTLY when i let off the gas and decelerate...the fuel status changes to closed loop, with 'decelerating' underneath it...when i cruise at whatever speed and light load...i see closed loop and 'using o2' underneath it, and under this condition i see my fuel % percentage bouncing around depending on throttle position and load...both of which are also on a gauge located right next to all this...

When i first start the car when cold...i get 'open loop, engine start initiated'...in about 30 seconds im fully into closed loop with using o2...

The app also has a test setting that goes through and tells me exactly what information is available, and what isn't...this app will not show 'current AFR' on our cars...but will show 'mandated AFR', meaning the number the ecu is trying to make...MAF signal, MAP load, primary O2 sensor trim, exhaust temperature differential (secondary o2 sensor), throttle position, timing advance, coolant temp, air intake temp, fuel status, OBD recorded vehicle speed (and you can compare this with GPS recorded speed) and a few others all work perfectly though...the only definite NO is oil temp, as the car does not have a oil temp sensor to begin with...and oil pressure, which the car does have, but the app can't read the data properly...

Date: 03-12-2013 14:54:30
Name: UltraGauge

Message:

If the app can read and display the raw data, what are the hexidecimal values returned for PID 3 when open loop and when it is closed loop. Please note that PID 3 returns two bytes of data.

Best regards,

UltraGauge Support
www.ultra-gauge.com
Support is available Monday, Wednesday and Friday, 9-5pm Central Time

I have the ELM327 bluetooth OBDII/Torque App on my Casio Gzone Commando Android fon. Just another reason this is the best phone I've ever had. Does so many cool extra things I actually use. It can be wedged between the visor and headliner in either my car or truck and display whatever you want it to. Mostly I use it to maximize my mpg using the instant/avg mpg displays but have about 5 different screens on gauges and readouts.