Installshield's NA Build

I have yet to hear anyone shred a belt due to debris getting in there. However not to many people run no splash guards and occasionally run into kitty litter traps. I might not due this to my car. Then again I want to get mine tuned once and never again.

^ I have run both timing belt covers, and do run all the forward splash shields, that go under the radiator and stuff...I only stopped using the fender well shield on the crank side because a hot soldering gun fell on it when i was replacing the oil pan (i was also extending some O2 sensor harnesses at the time, hence the gun)...and melted enough of it that it wasn't usable...

I planned on finding a replacement, but never did...but noticed no problems with anything around the crank pulley and belts after A LOT of miles...so i'll probably just continue on this way...Considering i'm not set on utilizing a udp after a new engine goes in, its nice to be able to hit that crank pulley bolt only by turning the right wheel...rather than removing everything in the way first haha...

I'll need that window though...as it'll be a while until the new engine is ready to go in, let alone a proper dyno tune...but i haven't found an ideal cam timing set up yet for the way the car is now...i pulled back overlap and had a lot less likelihood of a stall, but it would still drop revs on throttle lift...dangerously low...so i'll be adjusting them a good bit once i get the cams back, and finding what works for the time being...

agreed though...after the new engine is in and i get it properly dyno'd and everything...i won't need that window any more...

I needed a new splash shield for my drivers side fender. All the ones at the wrecker were smashed. I ended up using a crazy carpet because I had a lot of them with a choice or colors. I went with OEM black. It worked very well and if you fold a 90* angle in them they hold themselves more rigidly.

Still no word yet from the machine shop...Was given a roughly 48 hour turn around time, and I assumed the work itself would take less than an hour with the right equipment...If no word today, that closes 8 days...I did call Tuesday, and they said 'today or tomorrow'...Pretty realistic that i'll be picking these back up tomorrow morning at the latest...and doing the work myself this Saturday...Had i just been told it would take at least a week, I would've planned on just doing the clutch and flywheel during the evenings of the past week...but whatever...I'm a pretty patient dude, but being led on with time frames for relatively simple work is something i don't have time for....I didn't need an entire engine overhaul...I needed a little work completed that could arguably be done with a dremel...

sorry for the rant, i'm sure my gf is getting tired of hearing all this haha...

Painted the valve cover, and made a matching window cut out in the upper timing belt cover...pretty happy with the results...



Also, sorry for attaching these pics through this website, rather than a host...I just wanted to make sure they're all here permanently for future viewing. A lot of builds lose their pics over time for various reasons...but these are here to stay, although i know they're not the best quality...I'll eventually make a public drop box link and put it in the original post, which will have everything once the build really gets going...

And now i feel like a dick haha...

Just returned from the machine shop...cams in hand, nearly good to go...Let this be a lesson to anyone messing around with custom cams, or even the stock sticks for that matter...as i never heard of this issue until it happened, at least with these cars:

the twiggys used a through hardened steel dowel pin for alignment (not exactly sure yet on the factory pins, but i'll be pressing one in tonight)...if that thing shears off, as mine did...its almost hopeless to drill out...He had diamond tipped burrs burning up on it, barely even scratching it...he claimed it was so hot that it was simply burning off the resin that holds the diamonds on the burr, and it was going no where...He had to place a washer over the pin hole, and mig up a small 'pile' to the sheared surface, and back it out by hand...which luckily worked...but he claimed if it had sheared any deeper, he wouldn't have had room to get to it...and it would be there permanently...

Also...because of knowing how hard that pin is...its pretty unlikely that it simply broke as i removed the cam gear on my vice, as that would've simply bent the slot in the cam gear's aluminum adjustment plate...I'm now pretty certain it sheared off while driving, and probably moved the cam itself out of position in the process...I'm guessing this is why when i changed my cam gear timing, i had perfect driveability for a few miles with no stalling...but it soon returned to the super lope and stall from before...So...i'm thinking it sheared, and my exhaust cam was changing its own timing haha...

So again, anyone doing this...It is 100% critical to get the sprocket bolt tightened properly...I thought i had it, but was using a strap wrench and was probably getting slightly false torque readings...the bolt wasn't down quite hard enough, and the sprocket slipped...and cut the pin...i won't let that happen again...the pin serves absolutely no other purpose than to set the sprocket perfectly...it is NOT a drive pin...the washer and sprocket bolt handle all of that, and if they aren't torqued to the needed spec...you'll have one hell of an annoying issue...you can run cams without these pins, but it makes lining up the sprocket pretty tough...as even 1 degree off, and you're already making blind adjustments to timing...

he plugged the open ends with a tap and a set screw with loc tite...looks perfect, and i'd imagine that will hold oil pressure just fine (probably better than a press plug would've to begin with)

I now have a factory dowel pin removed from a stock cam...I'll measure it, and see if i can tap that in with a solid hammer...if not, i'll go through some old drill bits and try to fabricate something out of that...again, as they are only 'locators'...the pin doesn't need to be that hard, a softer pin would actually be much easier to remove if something goes wrong again...

lesson learned...Twiggys are otherwise ready to go...looks like i dodged a pretty big bullet...

Do you have the specs for the set screw used to plug the end of your twiggy's?

Sport23 said:

Do you have the specs for the set screw used to plug the end of your twiggy's?

Click to expand...

I'm really sorry man, but i don't...I could get it if you really need it, though. The technician tapped, what he told me, as 1/4" into the bore...The set screw's hex is 3/16", i confirmed that...and it sits flush with the face of the open end, inside the crowned area, which is identical to the stock cams...its not overly deep by any means, but i'm just going off of what it looks like...He sealed it with red loc-tite, so i didn't want bother with removing it...as its seated very tight already...

So i guess the real point is, it doesn't really matter...the screw seems to fit perfectly with the face hole, and he tapped out the taper leading into the smaller inner hole (which runs the length of the twiggy)...so the threads only extend into that taper, not into the actual cam...While i can't say this 'worked' yet, it doesn't seem very invasive...i'm assuming as long as you stay pretty shallow, you won't mess up the integrity of the cam...the billet twiggy's are VERY thick, more so than the stock sticks...and this procedure probably put less stress on the cam end than pressing in a plug...

do you have twiggys?

I'll put a pic up in a few minutes of what was done...I also managed to very easily bump the stock cam's pin in (both the stock pin and broken twiggy pin measured .1975" iirc, with a press fit of .0015", so they're not actually as tight as i thought)...the stock pin is a little shorter than what came with my twiggy's, but that will probably aid in some torsional strength...it doesn't seem quite as hard as the twiggy pin, also...i easily marked it with a center punch...i'm considering removing the twiggy intake cam pin and putting another stock dowel in its place...so if they do get sheared again, it won't be as much trouble to remove...a bent soft pin is cake to walk out, a hard and brittle pin that sheared off...i hope to never have that again...and considering these aren't drive pins; i'm not exactly sure as to why the manufacturer used such case hardened things to begin with...

My problem with shearing that pin makes a whole lot more sense now...

The REAL problem was that the twiggy's cam gear bolt bore is nearly identical to the factory gear bolts themselves...It was extremely fun finding that out last night after 4+ hours of working alone, with little light, in an unheated garage...with the temp plummeting to around 10*F...

I got it back together...started it up...and had only managed to mess up one thing (a bolt broke off on the side of the head that holds the forward section of the upper timing belt cover, nbd can be fixed pretty easily when i take everything out again)...I let it warm up, seemed fine, timing was set correctly, no abnormal anything...then shut it off, as i was just leaving it there anyway...I went over the valve cover, making sure the new seal was working and the bolts remained tight...then happened to check the cam gear bolts now that i have access to them with the cover on...

the intake side was ok...the exhaust side was not even finger tight...despite me torquing it...again...to the factory recommended spec. i easily back it out by hand...when i tried to loosen the intake side, it barely held on from just a normal ratchet...so it wasn't holding that torque either...So i took the valve cover off, and figured i'll just torque both to 60ft/lbs instead of 45...probably the worst idea i've had to date with this car:

Got it to about 54ft/lbs on the exhaust side...the bolt head snapped off like it was made of wood...leaving a nice stub stuck in the exhaust cam...so the cam had to come out AGAIN haha...

So then i quickly just removed only the exhaust cam...left the intake in...left the timing belt, drive belts, everything else as is...and went to bed, obviously pretty frustrated...This morning i went to my future in-laws (her father is a retired Ag Engineer, with a basement full of equipment)...In about an hour we had the broken stud out perfectly, no damage to the cam at all...threads were still perfect...we then took a bunch of measurements, and found the real problem...

the bore is nearly identical to the bolt itself, or more specifically...the depth to the cam STOPS just before the bolt can effectively apply pressure to the cam gear face and washer...so the bolt is 'bottoming out' before really squeezing the cam gear properly...and is pushing back hard enough on the bolt to let it easily walk out when driven...It'll get 'tight', but its giving false torque readings because of the shorter depth, and isn't able to keep the cam gear in place properly...

THIS destroyed the pin the first time, and is why it so easily snapped the bolt the 2nd time...Its very odd that the first time i took the cams back out (to fix the plug) that the gears still seemed torqued down properly...but after measuring, there was no question the bolts were too long...So we found some misc bolts of better length, of higher quality than the stock bolts...and i'm now...finally...really...good to go...just have to undo and then redo...all of yesterdays work...again...

Should have it all back together tonight, i hope at least...

^ That sucks...

Im curious as Ive never seen this problem occuring before. Wondering if this was something that occured when the cams where being fixed or something, after the big stuff up. (If they were one of said cams, otherwise I hope I dont run into this :/)

In regards to rods, I was looking to see if I could get F20C (149mm) rods with the 1.8 Crank (as they where perfect IIRC, i never did very far), my fall backs were Duratec 2.0/MZR (146.something mm)which needed a modified BE as they were ~<1mm too small. And if they didnt work I was gonna sulk before looking at SR20/3SGTE Rods.

I was looking for twiggy information to see what the cams overlap was stop and back tracked through my old posts, at the end of one of the threads I found this pearl which IMO explains things well:


Original Post: http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/show...e-Cam-thread&p=6069302&viewfull=1#post6069302

Ice, i spoke with the original buyer of my twiggy's...he was part of the 2nd wave of grinds, so the thrust journal problem never needed to be fixed on this set...it seems, though...that the cam tech was rushed with getting the next batch out...as this set never had a hex ground into the shaft, and also may have stopped just a thread or two too short on the bolt bore...the measured depth and the bolt length (minus (head size + washer + cam gear thickness))..it was within .01" inches, so pretty tight...but, they're in...and the car is running again...I shortened some new bolts of the right pitch (M10 x 1.25) that were grade 10's, instead of the factory 8's...and used some medium high temp loc-tite this time...after numerous heat up cycles, they still seem to be holding fine...where my factory bolts were backing out of the exhaust cam within a minute or two at idle...

Edit:

nevermind...everything is fine now...I had put up that the car was stalling like crazy and bla bla bla a few minutes ago...figured it out, when i installed the gears, i must've reversed them (as they are universal anyway)...which is fine, but made my adjustments backwards...i had actually increased overlap to something like 18 degrees, surprised it idled at all with that...10 minutes of setting them back to what was intended...and it idles fine (similar to a few weeks ago; almost too stock-like...i'll fix that when the computer gets through its learning phase)...

Anyway, everything is back together and FINALLY seems to be cooperating...Definitely was one of the tougher sets of problems i've run into with this car, but considering the rarity of the parts...it was worth it...

So next up, probably 2 weeks from now, full engine removal and installing my exedy stage 1/Fidanza 7.5lb flywheel...the gauges and a few other interior replacement pieces...as well as tackling the small section of rust in the engine bay, a few spots underneath the car (beneath the front passenger seat), and the passenger rear fender well...with the car in the air i'll probably go crazy with undercoating spray and that rust eating paint through each fender well...Nothing is overly bad yet, but i'd like to stop it even more...

Thanks for all of the info! My twiggy's are also from the second batch so I will have to take some measurements and see if I have the same issues. You just saved me a ton of potential headaches!

yeah no joke man...I never even considered checking that depth...

The thing was...the threaded bore depth on the cam was pretty much identical...So it allowed the stock bolt to be screwed in enough to look completely tight, and even hold the cam gear enough for adjustments...its not like the bolt head and washer were obviously not touching the gear face...the problem was that the cam itself was pushing back on the 'squeezed' bolt threading...and it wouldn't need much vibration to simply loosen up all on its own...and when that happens...sheared pin...and considering many have reported these FS engines aren't as non-interference as Mazda would leave us to believe...its not something to F around with...

But, something to consider...I only used these with FocusMSP cam gears...never the stock set...the focus built gears use a plate of aluminum that replaces the stock surface for the cam bolts...I never bothered with the metallurgy issues, i don't know what aluminum was used for the stock gears, nor what is used for that plate...but its possible that the focus gear's plate was easily compressed by the torquing of the cam bolt and washer...and that its not actually the cam's threaded bore depth entirely...only that the gear face 'gives' too much, so THEN the bolt would bottom out, and i was out of room...so i'm saying that FocusMSP gears may have the exact same problem with stock cams and stock cam gear bolts, thats all...and nothing to do with the twiggy's...

in either case...the stock length cam bolts are simply too close to too long imo for these specific cams and adjustable gears...and if you cut off 3 or 4 threads from a factory bolt, you still have about 10 full threads of engagement...thats not something to worry about, and it guarantees your not bottoming out in there...

for the record, i also used some loc-tite to be safe, as i mentioned...that may have been over-kill, as the FSM and my Haynes manual mention nothing of that...and the torque only needs to be 46ft-lbs max...but it won't hurt, either...

Also sport23, i'm really sorry i told you i'd get a pic of the set screw installed in the opposite end...i totally forgot, but they are holding perfectly it seems...My machine shop had no trouble tapping a shallow thread into that end, and using the set screw i mentioned...if you need this done, just have them tap threads enough to eat up the taper to the center bore, so it bites into that taper, and not the center bore itself (this way it won't risk weakening any of the shaft itself)...these things can't be filled with much oil pressure, so there won't be much force trying to work them out...and using high temp red loc-tite; they're there to stay dude...

once this is complete, any idea how it will affect fuel mileage? Will it make the engine more efficient, so if you baby it, could it be capable of better MPGs?

Better then what? Stock? He'll be using an aftermarket computer so in theory he should get much better fuel economy when driving around all normal like.

Yeah Justin, when all is said and done it'll end up pretty similar to stock...a little better in some driving conditions, a whole lot worse in others...fuel consumption is a direct function of engine output...it takes more gasoline to make more power...granted; the stock tune isn't very efficient in a lot of situations, so that will be removed (which makes more power out of the 'same' amount of gas)...but if i reach my goal of 200+whp, that will definitely use a lot more fuel than the engine currently can...

but again...lightly driving around town and other 'normal' situations...i'm hoping to bump mpg a little...cam settings have a big impact on economy (big overlap guts mpg very quickly at nearly any rpm, as its just blowing right through the chambers)...so i'll probably be adjusting those occasionally for road trips and stuff where i don't need the max power numbers...then bigger overlap for more fun...

Another 40 or so miles today so far...seem to be breaking the twiggy's in fine...Its pretty apparent that 2 degrees intake retard and 4 degrees exhaust advance has fattened the mid range considerably...i haven't taken the engine up over 4500 rpm, yet...so no idea what the top end is like currently...but i'm not really concerned with anything until i get the engine completely out and properly degree the cams with a crank wheel and piston stop...in either case though, it pulls noticeably better at around 3,000 rpm than what i remember...I never had traction problems through that range in 1st and 2nd gear on dry pavement...a quick shift from 1st to 2nd, even dropping to only 3,000 rpm...easily breaks a tire loose now...

i know the turbo guys are probably laughing about that...but you don't find that issue very often on an NA 3rd gen haha...

no laughing here. I actually just recently started following your build. You don't see too many NA builds going on anymore. I have seen several threads where the OP has plans for a build, but they all end up being dead end threads. I'll be staying tuned to see more progress. I think it would be pretty sweet to see an NA build go against a MSP with minor bolt ons. Just the idea of a NA protege with identical power to a MSP is awesome. It's like a true sleeper. You wouldn't see any major mods that scream "power". Everyone doubts the potential of our engines, whether boosted or not. If someone were to come up to you in a stock or somewhat modded MSP and you asked to race them; I would love to see the look on their face after you ran them. Keep it up man. Definitely a build I'll be subbing to

^greatly appreciated man.

for me personally...its not at all about pushing boundaries or anything like that...and obviously not to build something that only gets driven hard on a dyno...its ALL about the knowledge and learning i get from messing around with some things that no one else seems to have done yet (or if they did, they never put it on the internet haha)...

but, in reality...i'm really only doing what some guys have done to other cars...on a car that isn't the best fit for it...there are much easier starting points...but the age and relatively cheap parts available for these 3rd gens...its actually not all that bad...my main concern was to do this build with a budget that would be less money per month than a much nicer and newer car...I have no car payment, and $200 to $300 a month buys a great bit of even hard to find stuff...

It'll be slow, but i promise its happening...As far as these engines...i completely agree; they have an unfair rep for being 'bad'...This is one reason i dislike bolt on 'kits', be it a turbo or supercharger...or a box full of misc parts to make a powerful NA engine...set ups like that always give great on paper numbers, but ALWAYS lack some essential equipment to truly do it 'right'...even worse, it gives the owner no responsibility towards the modifications made...they take what someone else designed...wrench the parts on...the car breaks...and the FS engine sucks?...As this community has aged; that isn't really a problem any more...now turbo set ups are nearly always custom, and the people that run them have a much better understanding of how everything meshes together...and you see a lot less BS threads about how much these cars suck because of that...i'm sure you can attest to that...

Totally agreed on where i'd like to end up...a NA protege5 that can keep up with a lightly modified MSP...is something very rare, as sad as that is...but more importantly, it'll be extremely fun to drive...

Oh and also...how do you like the fidanza flywheel and Exedy? thats the next installation i'm doing...have both sitting in my basement currently...Was the install tough? I've done clutch work before on other cars, have a good idea on how to handle mine...but did the flywheel line up right? the directions state it may need to be hot plated to be properly torqued onto the crank...and any problems pressing in the pilot bearing or anything?

yeah, I know what you mean about the BS threads. They still pop up sometimes, but those of us that actually enjoy working on the car are pretty quick to shut them up. It's not a walk in the park if you are looking for power. But with some knowledge, patience and a little cash, they can be fun cars. Some people just don't understand that; and they think they can take a few bolt ons out of a box and make 300hp and are quickly disappointed. I tell people that all the time, especially those local to me that pick up a protege and start asking about making power. You have get to know and understand the car before modding it. Otherwise, you will end up selling it soon after. I have big plans for my car and will eventually get there. Im only two major steps away from making the power I want. As far as the clutch and flywheel. I have a Clutchmasters stage 1 setup with that flywheel. It took a little bit to get used to. RPMs jumped a little bit quicker. As for the install, I actually had a friend of mine do it for me at his shop since I didn't have the tools, time or space at the time.(I was in the military) So, I apologize for the lack of info on that