2004 MSM? Considering a trade

6speed

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'05 MSM #36, '05 WWP RX-8
Yesterday a 2004 MSM (Grey, 88,000 miles, 1 owner carfax, 2 minor accidents) showed up for sale for $11k at a local dealer. Considering I could trade in my troubled 99 Miata for it and keep roughly the same payment (which is really low anyway) while removing the problems on hand, lower mileage, better equipped, and more power... I am really seriously considering it.

Any feedback on this?
http://www.cars.com/go/search/detail.jsp?tab=map&listingId=95203698&aff=national
 
2 minor accidents.. get it checked out. Might be able to knock off 1.5 if not 2 grand. Winter is coming.
 
Just test drove it. All the mechanicals are solid. Flyin Miata boost gauge and exhaust, I think the FM stage 1 suspension as well.

It has flaws though. Their is a significant scuff on the front bumper that has it a bit out of line with the fender as well. There is paint peeling in a few circular spots on the driver's door, a bit bigger than a silver dollar, the fender rocker panels have the typical rust bubbles, and both fog lights are missing. I got under the rear with a flash light, and no clear repair points found, all the body panels line up fine and the color matching appears to be perfect, though might need a bright sun to confirm that. The front damage I am guessing is the front bumper damage and missing fog lights. Couldn't find any other evidence of damage on the front. Splash pan mounting points appear to be where they should be, no bent radiator brackets.

There is something going on with the door ajar alarm and the hazard lights. I couldn't find any evidence of an aftermarket alarm, but when a door opens the hazards kick in without lighting up the flasher icons in the gauge cluster (if that makes sense) while the gauge backlight and the audio backlight flash in time with the hazards, though off-cycle with each other. Like the hazards are on with the gauge cluster back light and the audio backlight off, then they switch. Fades after a couple minutes, light on the steering column that I don't remember being OEM but kinda looks OEM keeps flashing for another couple minutes. All disappear when you start driving it, park it and open the door and they all re-start, along with the door-ajar warning, even with the lights off and the key out. Dealer said it didn't do that before they had to jump the dead battery a couple weeks ago. I think it's a sign of an aftermarket alarm that is semi-triggered.

Have to wait till next week when my wife gets back with the 99 Miata for them to appraise that and start talking money, but yeah, I bet I could talk them off a couple grand, though I would also bet that there would be negative equity from my 99 trade in, but I'm fine with that.

Pulls quite hard, BOV sounds louder than I believe they are stock. The FM boost gauge, FM exhaust, and an XM receiver are clearly aftermarket, so the BOV might be as well. I did some reading that indicates it's a common first replacement/upgrade. The shocks I believe are the white Tokios that FM uses in their suspension, and the springs are clearly different from my 99s, much tighter wound coil and it sits lower. Guessing that it's the FM stage 1 suspension. The steering and ride are exactly where they should be, idle is smooth, start up is quick and easy both cold and hot, holding in cruise doesn't appear to have any stumbles.

Will be digging more before I go back, but in general i'm probably going to go ahead with it.
 
Just saw this thread and clicked the link and thought....hmmmm, that pic looks familiar. I was searching cl over the weekend and saw this http://allentown.craigslist.org/ctd/3258285298.html lol Forgot that you had recently moved to the Poconos. No fogs? Looks like they are there in the pics and they are mentioned in the cl ad? Guessing it's the same car as it is the same price, year, mileage, etc.... It's got a Hard Dog bar too, wonder if the PO bought it from FM as well?
 
Yup, that's definitely the same car. And you are right, the fog lights are there in the pic. Hmm.


Agreed Chris, their price is too high. I figure I can talk them down to at least $9k.

The FM mods add value to me, because I'd be adding them anyway, so they actually make the car gain value. I haven't indicated that to anyone there though. I've pointed out the clear aftermarket stuff, though with the hazards and dash flashing at the time I said it with a negative tone. Could be around $2,000 in FM mods there, but I'll still talk them down :)
 
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Yeah, weird. When you go back, I'd question them on the cl ad having pics that show the fogs but they are now missing? From the sounds of it, there are no deletes in their place, just empty holes?!

LOL at your little secret but don't worry it's safe with us. ;) If you can get it for 9K with the mods, that's def. a nice little bonus and helps take the sting out of any negative equity the 99 may give you. GL
 
Ok... I looked over the pics and here is what I see...

It has a FM intake and a break where the MAF goes.. This could be a clue to this car having a Big Enchilada upgrade, however it doesn't have the upgraded FMIC....

I see the upgraded BOV (Go Fast Bits?) and a lot of rust starting... This car looks like it wasn't taken car of and partially upgraded....

I'd go at it with some caution.. If the minor accidents were anywhere in the front, it might explain the stock IC being back in the front if it had a Little Enchilada or a Big Enchilada upgrade from FM.



Edit: The front bumper doesn't seem to sit all to well and the lines to meet the fenders and hood are off... This could explain the stock IC
 
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Here is a more detailed write-up:


So I contacted them and drove over to check it out. Sales lady (first female sales agent I've ever dealt with) knew nothing at all about cars, and was pointing out features like "it has crumple zones!" :rofl: Until she realized that yeah, I actually not only knew more about cars, but knew quite a bit about that one in particular, and ended up asking me more questions.

There were some clear flaws right up front.
- Carfax shows 2 accidents, one front in 2004, one rear in 2009. No solid indication of severity
- The front bumper took a bit of a hard scuff on the left front at some point, possibly the accident in 2004, and the front bumper is a bit off alignment on the front left. Not much, but just enough that the hood line and fender line aren't quite right.
- Both fog lights are missing
- The driver's door has a couple circular spots where the paint appears to be peeling back, like a drop of water on concrete spreads out.
- There is an electrical issue that triggers the 'lights on' warning and the hazards when the door is opened, from either side. The gauge cluster and audio backlight flash alternately with the hazard lights, and the hazard icons on the gauge cluster do not light up when this occurs (but do when I manually turn on the hazard lights). This fades after a bit, or when you start driving. The dealer said it did not do that before having to jump start it a couple weeks ago, so they think something got messed up there. Might be an aftermarket alarm installed that is stuck on triggered? I don't know enough about alarms to really know, but didn't see any odd wiring.
- The engine bay is quite dirty/dusty, a big collection of leaves under the cowl gap
- typical rocker panel rust bubbles

Mechanically, the car seems pretty solid. Smooth idle and fast start ups, hot and cold. When cruising at various points in the RPM range in various gears there weren't any hiccups or stumbles anywhere. Each gear pulled smoothly and strongly. Clutch engagement was normal for what I'd expect from my 99, shifting felt better than my 99.

And it's modded. Not quite obviously to the dealer, but it has
- a Flying Miata boost gauge on the A pillar
- FM catback exhaust (couldn't tell if any other exhaust parts were as well),
- the intake was aftermarket and is farther up toward the firewall than the stock one, I believe in the same spot as the FM intake kit. No air box, just a large filter. I couldn't identify any branding. The filter appears to be the same one in FM's complete intake kit, however none of the piping was polished like they are in FM's picture. It's probably the FM kit
- aftermarket horns behind the passenger side headlight
- White shocks and springs with progressive coiling, appears to be the FM stage 1 suspension at least. Red sway bars, but smaller than my Racing Beat tubular front bar, so unknown if they are aftermarket either. I did not get a chance to really lean on the suspension through a corner to determine roll amount
- XM satellite receiver
- Double diagonal roll bar, couldn't determine branding


All in all, I think it's going to be a pretty good deal when I talk them down some money for the paint issues and missing fog lights. That electrical needs to be solved, or I know what the fix will be needed, for me to ignore that point.

On the test drive, the sales lady told me she trusted my driving, saying it appeared that I was a good driver, so told me to go ahead and push it. I used that license to push on the turbo a bunch, but with dark limited road familiarity, and really unsure where her limit was, I wasn't going to push the suspension yet. When we got back, the sales lady was laughing, said it was the funnest test drive she has ever been on. :rofl:

She had me talk to her manager, and I brought up a compression test request to confirm engine health, and he told me that if I wanted to do one, that's fine they can, but they have had engine damage from them before so if anything goes wrong the repairs are on me, even if I don't buy the car. :bang: Pretty sure he was just feeding me a line to get out of having to do it. I don't have any suspicions about the engine, just a peace of mind bit. And outside of doing something stupid, I don't think there is a real risk of engine damage from a compression test. :rolleyes:


Thoughts? Other points to discuss with them or things to look for on the car?
 
Thanks Chris. The accident could explain the missing fmic upgrade certainly. I was leaning toward the big enchilada for it.

Agreed on the rust, though less than my 99 :)
 
- The intake is FM. You can get a break in it like you see to have a MAF or a blank installed.
- The rollbar is from Hard Dog and it looks to be their sport model. Still a decent chunk of change to buy and install unless you do it yourself.
- The front accident explains my issues with bumper aligment.
- Electrical issues: Good ******* luck on that.

As far as idle goes... Did the RPMs drop at all when coming to a stop? (see: clean throttle body)
 
Correction, Big Enchilada has the Hydra ECU, so guessing effectively the little, not big. Minus the intercooler. Doubt the hydra is still in there, but want to check now :)
 
Nope. Solid idle. Clutch in drop, decel drop, neutral shift drop. Idle went solid for each.
 
Correction, Big Enchilada has the Hydra ECU, so guessing effectively the little, not big. Minus the intercooler. Doubt the hydra is still in there, but want to check now :)

I doubt it too, but with the FM intake it gives you potential..... A really good clue is look at the ECU to see signs of a Hydra install.

Hydras are installed behind the glove box. :)
 
Some more discussion with Mazda-speed.com, Miata.net, and a night of sleeping on it and a long commute to work...

I'm doing it. Will take a week to get the 99 back up to PA to start the discussion, but even calmly thinking everything through, I can't find a single negative or reason why not to. Even if the absolute worse case came about, it would be just as 'reliable' as the 99 has been. Far far more likely to be just fine however. The credit wouldn't be a big hit or change, just swapping one car loan for another, the car payment would increase slightly, but less than $40 / month increase from the $172 that it is at now. Insurance would go up about $10 / month. Neither point is anywhere remotely close to breaking the bank. The dealer will low-ball me on the 99 Miata, and roll the negative equity into the loan, but then I can talk them down about the same amount on the Mazdaspeed Miata price point due to the paint flaws. It also has the exact laundry list of mods that I would do to the 99 if I kept it: turbo, lower rear gear, full exhaust, full intake, FM stage 1 suspension w/ springs and shocks, FM boost gauge, better seats, track ready roll bar. It's about $3,500 in modifications from the prior owner, but if I did them to the 99 Miata it would be about $7,000-8,000, and I'd basically be getting them for 'free' with a $3,000-ish price increase over the 99 Miata. Plus I'd be moving to lower mileage, better condition body, better looking body, less rust, and I'd be ending the non-stop train of problems with the 99.

I literally can't find a draw back with this decision that would stop me. No one is finding anything severe enough wrong with this MSM that is a big red flag to me, just negotiation points. The only negative I am feeling is that some of the stuff I paid for on the latest engine replacement is "wasted", but enough is enough. I have to stop the bleeding sometime, and my hands and tools aren't doing it.
 
Yup, that's my thread there too. They have been quite helpful.

The front bumper and driver's door certainly are a bit on the worn side. The mechanicals performed flawlessly on the test drive, and the agent let me push it quite hard so that side of it wasn't left out. The dirty engine bay can be cleaned and the electrical all appears like just an aftermarket alarm stuck in trigger mode from the jump start, which is common. Worst case I just pull out the alarm.

Will be trying to borrow it for a half day or so tomorrow, or if not tomorrow then friday, to get a body shop to check it for lasting damage from the accidents. Any lasting damage and it's a deal breaker anyway.
 
Just drove it for a body shop inspection. No frame damage, but the list of problems is climbing. I told the agent and her boss that i'd be lowballing them a bunch for any chance to sell it to me. Like $6k tops, more like $5k. No deal otherwise.

- In 5th and 6th, the shifter has 1-2 inches of 'wiggle' range
- the first accident was minor, still has original fenders and hood, but poorly repaired, poor paint blending
- the rear accident was far better, apparently only a trunk replacement
- 65mph shimmy is the worst I have ever felt
- aftermarket alarm was constantly causing problems
- felt/saw a boost stumble around 5500 rpm, didn't repeat.

And I have to be honest. It has more torque than my 99 for sure, and I'm sure more peak power, but faster? Not something I could tell. Maybe it's my 99's ~350lbs lower, 700rpm higher redline, smaller/lighter wheels and tires, and making power across more of the rev range, but i'd need a side by side drag race to prove the MSM was faster.
(My 99 has an 01+ engine ac delete, ps delete, JR header and high flow cat, FM 10.3lb flywheel, and lighter/smaller wheels and tires)

Not bashing MSMs. Maybe that one is getting soft as well. Boost would hold at ~8psi from ~4,000rpm to ~5,500, I think it would start falling off a bit after that. I had to pull over on the side of the highway after leaving the body shop because the hood was apparently not quite latched the whole way, and accelerating back up to speed, I really think my 99 would have been able to keep up.
 
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