Ice's N/A Build

No man I have never heard that Mazda history stuff. I will have to do some googeling and read up on that. Sounds very interesting. And yes this car has been written off here as well. They are all "under powered", and not shown on any fast and furious moves so they are becoming extinct with the help of road salt.

However during all my road racing there is not really any chances I will get below third gear. Unless I am passing someone through a corner.

ihone said:

Ice - I'm really glad you stuck with this build man. I am one that wrote the FSDE off completely in my P5 and went to another platform to see what possibilities are out there. My build thread speaks of the utter crap I've had to go through to make it work, but I'm 100% sure you can relate when I say :

It's not what everyone else thinks or wants from your build - it's what you do that makes you smile when you know YOU paid the bill, YOU did the work, and YOU get to drive it as much as you want.

At least that's what makes me smile when I hear such things like "Protege with a v6??? BullSh!t.... ".

Click to expand...

Yeah I wouldn't change the build as the car reflects my personality or way of thinking.

But its still nice when others appreciate the work that has gone into your ride

iracemine said:

No man I have never heard that Mazda history stuff. I will have to do some googeling and read up on that. Sounds very interesting. And yes this car has been written off here as well. They are all "under powered", and not shown on any fast and furious moves so they are becoming extinct with the help of road salt.

However during all my road racing there is not really any chances I will get below third gear. Unless I am passing someone through a corner.

Click to expand...

Unfortunately the guy im getting the gear set off doesn't have third. But third gear ratio out of a GT-ae is 1.680:1 compared with 1.310:1 out of a FS box.

Info on new ECU?

very good build and a nice read!

CR3 Motorsports said:

Info on new ECU?

Click to expand...

Hey bud,

ECU has the following features that are a bit special:
- Onboard Knock Control
- Open loop, closed loop, and two adaptive modes (requires EGO sensor). Means that you can do some pretty cool stuff with the ECU.

The Flex Fuel sensor is kinda crucial here as the most common form of E blended fuel is eflex which can be anywhere from 70-85% blend. Obviously the resultant octane level varies based on this, with the sensor the Car knows what % ethanol is in the car.

In regards to what its utilized for with the Adaptronic. The way the adaptronic works from my understanding is that with the presence of the Sensor it works out the ethanol content and adjusts the fueling requirements based on the ethanol. Its possible I believe from a few posts that the maps are able to blend.

i.e. I stumble across a servo with E85, get a tank full. Drive somewhere and want to top up before a mountain run or track day or whatever. Traditionally I'd be sweet out of luck if no e85, what happens is that the fueling requirements alter so that as I head towards a lower percentage concentration it adjusts the fueling etc towards the 98 octane map.

HrV323 said:

very good build and a nice read!

Click to expand...

Thanks man.

Seems a bit silly to be spending all this money on the car when Ill be over your way next year. But determined to finish the project.

Still following you, bud...Haven't been posting much, as you're deeper into bottom end geometry than i've been for nearly 10 years haha...Keep it up, its going to turn out great!

Here's a question for you Install, its prolly a silly one but hey.

We all know that with shorter rod ratios that the piston spends less time around TDC in comparison to a longer stroked motor. We also know that the stroke of the engine has a direct correlation on the piston acceleration.

That being said I understand that due to this our cars tend to love timing advance. I'm assuming that we love timing because it allows us to overcome the above factors and get a better burn.

Surely the above factors would be a problem in regards to out running the flame front? (At substantially higher rpms ofc) But given that E85 burns faster would that mean that the rpms at which we out run the flame front occurs higher in the rpm? And why is it that generally tuners increase the amount of timing? Granted more timing can equal more power (as E85 allows us to run more timing without detonation) but wouldn't the faster burning mean that we don't need to ignite the mixture as early though as well?

If anyone else has an idea let me know If no one knows I'll spend some time to sit down and more research on E85 *when I can find time* and ponder it on the weekend.

Doesn't really impact my build either way I just get curious about these sorts of things *shrug*

KK sat down and thought about my question today, this is my reply to the question from AGT:

The logic behind my original train of thought was that due to the structure of ethanol and its cooling properties was that itd vaporise and mix better with the air creating a faster burn due to this.

The reality is that the higher the octane number the slower the frame front.

The reason that you need to consume more E85 over petrol (excuse me if the below isnt 100% right it has been 5 years since I last did chemistry/physics) is the amount of energy that each liquid contains per unit.

To my understanding the amount of energy released is dependent on the structure of the chemical itself. Fuel as we know it is a hard fuel to truly calculate as the fuel itself is complex combination of hyrdocarbons (or also parafins IIRC) which when they ignite result in a greater density then the items which entered the chamber, this along with the act of a controlled explosion is what causes a petrol engine to be as efficient as it is.

Now the amount of energy released from petrol (cant remember if this number represents fuel in its entirity or simply Octane) is 33kj per unit, while the amount of energy released from Ethanol is 25kj per unit.

Thus, why more Ethanol is required to produce similiar to greater amounts of power.

As for why the increase in octane doesnt make sense in regards to Ethanol is that it simply isnt the hydrocarbon octane. You see when we say that we are using whatever value octane it draws the conclusion that there is x percent (depending on where you live) of the hydrocarbon Octane (C8H18) in the fuel we are consuming. Meanwhile Ethanols is C2H6O.

The key point to take away is that they are from the same family but Ehtanol is certainly not Octane and therefore, the statement that E85 has a higher Octane number has to be false, right?

What the industry has done is utilise the term octane to describe a liquids propensity to combust. Higher the value the more stable the liquid.

Which annoys the heck out of me.

EDIT: Oh and you see the addition of the Oxygen molecule to the hydrocarbon of Ethanol? That I think is the reason why E85 is considered to be a cleaner fuel. I havnt worked it out, not sure Ill remember how off the top of my head :S (Which makes me really sad as chemistry was one of my fav subjects at school).

EDIT 2: Oh and the less complex the hydrocarbon the easier it is to vaporise. (In fact CH4 is Methane which is already a gas).

EDIT 3: And yes I realise I've left some chemcial terms out, but trying to keep it simpler to follow then it otherwise would be.

Ice88 said:

EDIT 3: And yes I realise I've left some chemcial terms out, but trying to keep it simpler to follow then it otherwise would be.

Click to expand...

And we thank you for that good sir! (2thumbs)

Heh welcome man.

If you have any questions or anything isn't clear let me know Happy to answer any questions peeps have regarding engine theory, I'm no where near the level of Installshield, but will do my best

Ive updated the first page with my latest acquisitions mentioned above and cleaned it up a little.

I'm currently working on plans for a turbo motor. Not sure how streetable it'd be but on paper looks to be alot of fun

OK so I posted this on another board but peeps might be interested in reading this:

Hope this is ok, and better yet hope its correct. (To my understanding it is )

So I’ll start my post with an overview of the combustion process.

We all know that in a naturally aspirated engine that on the exhaust stroke (i.e. pushing the exhaust gas out) that the intake valve opens towards the end of the cycle. This effectively allows air to travel from the intake side across the top of the head and out the exhaust side.

What is important to note is that this intake cycle is crucial for operating pressure. The more air we can induce into the chamber the higher the dynamic compression and as a result the more fuel we can induce to create a bigger bang. In doing so we also have the propensity to create more heat, this extra heat is absorbed into the head, piston etc. This heat in a head will have the tendency to create hot spots, which under compression will cause the fuel to detonate.

You may have heard the term that Quench is the art of introducing mechanical octane to an engine. And to a degree it does, but first we need to work out why Quench is important and in what scenarios.

Quench (Squish) is something that is incredibly important for inefficient and crappy engines such as LS1’s or old school v8 engines. The reason for this is that the valves are offset, in a DOHC or modern engine, air enters one side and out the other.

In pushrod engines and direct acting over head cam (?) the valves are offset such that if air was to scavenge it’d need to enter the piston and flow sideways outside the exhaust port. These heads tend to have flat in nature. I don’t need to point out really that is inefficient process. (This is why lots of V8 guys boost though, not because NA is crappy but merely cause there engines suck ) As a result the V8 guys start working on other means to create turbulence in engines. Some diesel engines will utilise things called swirl flaps that create swirl in the intake chamber to aid in the mixing of the fuel.

In V8s (pushrod) to create lots of power tight tolerances and well designed (in the sense of component selection and engine builder) engines are required. In stock engines the distance between the flat top of the piston and the head is usually rather conservative this results in a distance between the head (flat top of the head) and the piston being further apart then would otherwise be ideal. By reducing the distance between TDC (piston to piston deck height) and/or utilising thinner head gaskets you can in effect push the piston closer to the head.

What this means for them is that as the piston reaches TDC the air is pushed with greater force against the top of the head, what this is does introduce vertical swirls inside the combustion chamber resulting in a better mixture. The force of this air being squished and the result of a better mixture cools hot spots in the engine and reduces the lean spots created from the burn.

This is where the term of mechanical octane comes from. In fact because you’ve improved the quench in your head you can in fact use leaner mixtures then you would otherwise be able too.

What this really means for pent shaped and DOHC heads is little in comparison IMO. But I draw you to the following points:

What decking does is change the combustion head shape, this in effect means that you’re changing the shame of the chamber which can result in one of two things as I see it. It’ll either improve your quench and thus your burn. Or alternatively it’ll make it worse in which case you will effectively introduce detonation prematurely.

Flame propagation is essentially the speed at which the flame burns. This is affected in numerous ways but the basics are that a richer mixture will burn slower and vice versa for leaner mixtures. You may note that previously I mentioned that you can use leaner mixtures in a well designed engine to achieve a similar power. This will also mean that the mixture burns faster.

From my knowledge this would be particularly effective on engines which have a poor rod ratio. As they spend very little time around TDC.

I’ve prolly forgotten something or got something wrong in the above. I’ll have a read later and add anything I think I’ve missed. Let me know if you have any questions…

EDIT: Oh and becausing your increasing quench the amount of advanced timing required is reduced too. There's no real rule of thumb as the head design will determine how effective the increase in compression is

Ice... I have been following your thread and I must say you have done a pretty good job so far, considering where it is coming from. I have noted where you had a microtech. I did a couple more mods on my Sport20 FS-ZE but I am still restricted in the tuning area because I still have to Sport20 ECU in there and I am still in doubt about installing a piggyback emanage because I have read where the ECU will re-learn itself around any re-mapping you do in a couple of months.

1. How did you get around to tuning with the FS-ZE ECU

If you keep reading you will see I haven't installed the FS-ZE ecu and am not using the Microtech (in fact its up for sale atm in Aus). You cant tune with the FS-ZE ECU the ECU I have is from the Sport20 4WD.

Hoping this is the last of the parts that I need but ordered last night:
- Low temp thermostat (Unfortunatley the MS thermostat isn't made anymore )
- MSP Oil Cooler Kit
- Thermostat Gasket
- Bushings Kit for Gearbox should complement my Qford kit nicely.

I honestly cant think of anything else I need.

The following parts arrived so far this week:
- 4.5 Metres Aeroflow 450 Series Black Tubing
- 3 60 Degree Bends - Black
- 5 Straights - Black
- Works Engineering Oil Filter Relocation Kit

Still waiting on:
- Stant low temp thermostat
- MSP Oil Cooler Kit
- Thermostat Gasket
- Bushings Kit for Gearbox should complement my Qford kit nicely.

Pressure Release Valve + Fittings:








Recent Photos of the car out and about:

Update please

OK so ive been quite slack with updating this and taking photos.

This has mostly been to the rushed nature it was to get the car back on the road in readiness for Christmas, and after that the frustration at the various hurdles that have cropped. First a recounting of the narrative up to this moment.

In november the car was taken off the road, for the engine swap. As per normal there were a few issues that arose that were easily transversed but soaked up their fair share of valuable time. The engine did however come out quite easily, 2-3 nights of work (working till sundown (~2 hrs).
http://imageshack.com/a/url593/5065/xzpj.jpg

The gearbox was then taken to a gearbox mechanic to have the gearbox serviced while it was out. While it was there the synchros were sanded back smooth, third gear was fixed, the stock diff replaced with my Mfactory LSD, new seals and bearings. The box was also painted silver and has come up really nice.

Unfortunatley once the box was back there were a few hold ups. From the states I required my MSP Oil Cooler, Thermostat, Thermostat gaskets and water lines for the MSP kit. New heater hoses were also installed due to the age of the hoses and how much of a PITA they are to install when the engines in the car.
http://imageshack.com/a/url690/7536/oita.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/url812/9168/vxbt.jpg

The engine and gearbox were finally assembled and together in middle of December last year. It took a day to prep and install the engine IIRC. This was done farily easily. Problems arose when we went to start the car, was quite scary at the time. The engine woild turn over but failed to start. Quickly discovered that when the shop redid the timing after fixing the head from the snapped bolt incident that the cams were 180 degrees out. After many a frustrations with retiming the engine. The car started started only for seconds later for the oil filter to pop its seal causing oil to spray everywhere in the engine bay. At this point I was frankly stumped, I mean what reason would it have to do this. Everything had been double chacked to ensure that it was hookedup, tried various settings on the PRV. In the end i pulled apart the PRV in hope of finding out how it worked and in the end finding a solution to the problem as the oil filter was clearly receiving too much pressure. Only to discover that in the months that had passed the PRV had surface rust on the piston that is used to relieve pressure. As the unit was seized it wasnt bleeding pressure off sending it all to the Oil filter and popping the seal. Cleaned it up with some 1200 grit. Lubed it with some oil and ressammbled. Problem solved.

The second issue we faced after this is that the engine wouldnt idle. Not even hunt and die. Just full on, revs drop and engine would die straight away. This combined with the AFRs we were seeing meant that I bit the bullet and decided to get the Adaptronic installed and tuned early.

I booked it in with a local shop whom had experience working on these ecus on Lotus Elises. Initially it was thought to only take a couple of days. However, there were various complications along the way. Some I think could have been avoided, others I think I was lucky to have had it with a garage. Unfortunatley the work around that many utilise to keep the stock alternator when going aftermarkte doesnt seem to work with the Aussie cars/ adaptronic. As such a 626 alternator was purchased and installed. They've done a really neat job which is nice. Can't even tell which I'm extremely happy with.

The end result of the tune is that the adaptronic controls everything but the dash. Fans etc etc. I finally got the car back on wednesday this week. There are a few issues which I've been working on since then, weather unfortunatley hasnt been on my side (its been sunny for like 2 months, soon as i get car back down it comes (not happy)):
- Oil leak from around the pump. **** of a job to fix. Extractors, oil sump, mbsp, timing belt, crank wheel all need to come off to reseal the Oil Pump.
- Gearbox Diff Seals - By the time i got the car home we had to push it into the drive way. Car wouldnt go into first in his street.
- Oil Leak from around sump. Bolt missing. Added bolt all fixed.

In the end I made 171?whp after dynojet correctsions applied to the below dyno chart. Interesting thing is that this all occurs before 7k rpm. Anyone wanna help me with why the car drops off before 7k? Is it lack of head flow (i.e. head related)? Or cams? I know that im not running a hell of a lot of timing. (Tuner was adding 12-24 degrees with no response? Thoughts?).
http://imageshack.com/a/url829/7645/bvjv.jpg

List of things to tidy up:
- Engine Bay Degrease
- Engine Bay Brackets Cleaning
- Fix the battery relocation so that it uses wingnuts and bolts instead of screws.

Would like to thank Mad Mat, Phildough and TheMAN for all there help. Couldnt have done it without you guys

If I get mine started and then tuned I can report back the whp findings with the 626 mani. But that was what I was thinking why the power starts to die off before 7K. However its still -0F for highs here so I aint doing s***.

links no work for me.

Were you expecting it to make power at that rpm? Its not a Honda. I cant see your link but I would be surprized if it made power after 6k.