Suspnsion Upgrades: How to decide? Most bang for buck?

Oh, and as far as sway bar effectiveness- you see mostly rear bars for front-wheel drive cars since everyone's trying to get rid of the understeer that all the car manufacturers design into their vehicles. A stiffer front bar will typically increase understeer... example being my S2000: the stock tires are 205 up front and 225 (really 245) width in the rear. I went to 255 all around, plus the car likes to oversteer out of the box at the limit, so I got a HUGE front bar (32mm Comptech twin tube) that adjusts between 160% and 300% ish stiffer than the stock bar. Oversteer gone, even with the increased front grip.

If you just upgrade the front bar, you'll have more oversteer- so a larger front bar on your FWD needs to be offset with an even bigger rear bar- but then you lose more ride quality than you would with just a mildly larger rear bar.

phunky.buddha said:

Oh, and as far as sway bar effectiveness- you see mostly rear bars for front-wheel drive cars since everyone's trying to get rid of the understeer that all the car manufacturers design into their vehicles...If you just upgrade the front bar, you'll have more oversteer- so a larger front bar on your FWD needs to be offset with an even bigger rear bar- but then you lose more ride quality than you would with just a mildly larger rear bar.

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Didn't know about that. If I try sway bars, I might do the rear first (it seems like something I might even do myself) and see how it feels before doing the front. Of course, half the reason I would do the front is because the front bushings seem to fail the most frequently of all the suspension parts. I suppose I could just find better aftermarket bushings.

Don't mind a little oversteer. I had fun driving my Corvair for several years and never had any trouble once I learned to anticipate/compensate for it. Not sure if my wife would appreciate it, though...

I doubt that you'll push the car into tending towards oversteer just by going to an MS3 sway bar... but if you were used to driving a snap happy Corvair, you'll probably be fine with an oversteering FWD car.

i would highly suggest a rear swaybar for best bang for buck... our rear ends tend to be a bit heavy and dont feel as planted when making any turns.. a rear swaybar set to its stiffest setting will give the car a more neutral feel when turning (you dont feel the rear trying to catch up with the front end.)

hope that helps but i would say set a budget and stay within it.. swaybars should be a near first mod on any car really..

Got my FSDs installed last Friday. Had a little time to try 'em out. Gotta' say it's more of a subtle difference than an obvious night vs. day difference, but I may not have a good sense of what differences to be looking for. A bit snappier in turns and lane changes. Less springy over bumps. I have a bumpy driveway entrance that I hit at an angle and the car would rock and continue rocking when I hit it. Now it rocks once to each side and stops. Haven't taken it out on a good winding road, yet. The mechanic drove it and thought it was a worthwhile improvement/investment. He recommended driving 'em for about 500 miles before deciding on a sway bar.

I'll check in after a while if I have any more observations or when I start looking at my next improvement. Thanks to everyone who offered their experience and opinions.

Yeah shocks need some time to settle in from being on there side on a shelf and gas bubbles trapped throughout in places they probably shouldn't be.

What was the total price for them?

So I'm trying to get a more stock-ish handle on all this.
I've replaced my rear shocks with the KYB's about 5 months ago. The old OEM ones were blown, so anything was a good noticeable improvement.

I do feel the OEM rear springs are a bit overtaxed by the heavier backside of the 5, but I'm not looking for the way of the racer. I'm ordering the SPC's for the back and I would like to get better springs also.

What is that middle ground spring I should try? I'm handy with a wrench, but I'm not EVER gonna lower my 06' M5. I just want to make it more stable.

I'm following y'alls info on the swaybar too. There again; I'm just looking to improve it a bit, and get some of the softness in the roll and sway out.

I do occasionally tow a small trailer too. That is why I also want more softness out of the rear. That is about as fierce a workout as my M5 get's.

Does anyone know any aftermarket beefier rear sway bar endlinks?

Make your own?

so... a ms3 rear sway bar will just swap right out, no need to replace the endlinks? Ive got both a set of MS3 sways(front and rear) sitting in my garage just waiting to be thrown in, ill start with the rear and see how goes it before deciding on the front

Mine came with end links already on it, but they were the same length and bolt size at the control arm as the stock ones.

sweet... looks like ill be attempting the swap this weekend

This thread is exactly what I've been looking for, my 5 has just over 95K on it and is definitely needing some shocks (or struts, whatever). My wife drives it 90% of the time so I don't need auto-X type suspension and we live on a gravel road in the middle of nowhere so I don't want it any lower than it already is. Are the guys replacing the sway bars doing so for "better" cornering, or what? My 5 seems to corner just fine, it just is starting to wallow on bumps. And I did a whole suspension swap on my former Miata years ago, everything under there was rusted to &^%$ so I ended up having to replace way more than I planned, have rust-belt people found this under their 5's as well? Like if I go to replace my struts will it need half of everything else done up as well?

First, the RB upgrades are great for cornering and have little negatives on-road. Point of fact: we just got back from driving various quality country roads (no gravel, though) and my wife as the front passenger didn't notice anything at all after putting on the JBR rear sway (middle setting). I could feel the flatness, the lack of roll, in the rear going in to corners and the response time of the rear following the movements of the front. Definite improvement. It almost feels like I've shortened the wheelbase. I have the RB front sway waiting for me to get up the gumption to put that on. Hopefully this weekend. I'm looking forward to feeling that change. I was concerned the rear would be "enough" and I'd feel like I wasted money on the front, but I can't wait. If it turns out I want the rear tighter I have another notch to move up (though I don't expect that to be the case).

One positive I've found is that bumps and other road upsets that don't attack the axles evenly are actually _better_ than before. There's one intersection in particular that is terrible - for example in my Jeep keeps your head bobbing back and forth for a few seconds after you make the turn. Now with the much stiffer RB in the back I get a single side-to-side and it's done. The RB reins it right in. Otherwise I have noticed no ill effects.

As for salt belters - that would be me (Upstate NY). The stock rear bar was gross. Not structurally failing, but the black paint was bubbled and peeled across most of the surface. I'm also getting some rust along the pinch seems on the sides - NOT happy about that. But yeah, a general mess. All the bolts were fairly well stuck, though some more than others. The end links were in decent shape so I'm not too worried about them just yet. Both of my wife's previous SAABs had aluminum arms and such on the suspension; I wish more companies did that. I'd pay the extra if it meant less rust under my car.

I agree the 5 corners "just fine" to begin with. Better than most popular sedans and all other minivans. But a pair of bars is less than the cost of a new set of performance tires and offers nearly as much handling improvement. I already have decent wheels and tires so I don't mind adding the bars With the extra weight over the 3 I wanted something stiffer than the MS3 swap so the JBR and Racing Beat combo was a good compromise in performance and price, but pretty much any swap will show improvement.

sethro_GT said:

Yeah shocks need some time to settle in from being on there side on a shelf and gas bubbles trapped throughout in places they probably shouldn't be.
What was the total price for them?

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Sorry i didn't get back sooner. Been out of commission for a bit. I paid $620 for the struts and $340 for labor. Two shops wouldn't touch it unless they ordered the parts. Two shops quoted me about the same for labor.

Still feeling like the struts were a modest improvement. Not bad, but not a big A-HA! Still have front end knocks that I suspect are front sway bar bushings or front end links. I'm thinking to do end links all-around since it doesn't cost an arm and a leg. Maybe rear sway bar too since it seems to be something I can do on my own.

Your review makes me lean towards the BIlstein HD shocks/struts when the time comes. I just replaced my rear shocks for blowing out on a bump with a full passenger load last summer (only about 40k mi on them too) so I'm not looking to replace all the shocks and throw that money away. I think they feel fine stock and the Monroe "OEM" replacement shocks feel as identical as my butt measurements can tell. I have had vehicles completely come alive with good quality shocks but considering what you're saying I shouldn't expect that from the Bilsteins either. Even if they turn out to be better I doubt that are substantially better than Konis. So I'll just wait until I blow another shock (which surely will happen since they are designed for a lighter, less loaded car!)

I'd love feel the FSD versus the Bilstein HD back to back. I imagine no one's had the opportunity but would love to hear about it.

the.jack said:

Your review makes me lean towards the BIlstein HD shocks/struts when the time comes.
I'd love feel the FSD versus the Bilstein HD back to back. I imagine no one's had the opportunity but would love to hear about it.

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I wish I could give a more enthusiastic recommendation. If was more of a tuner or had a better idea of what to look for, I might be able to. But for an average guy replacing bad struts, I don't know that I'd give a strong recommendation. Of course, half the reason I went with non-stock was that the front struts were going bad too soon after being replaced - so, if the FSDs simply last longer I'd consider that a wash and if they give a modest improvement to the ride/handling I'd call it a success. Only time will tell how long they last, though...

Yeah, it would be nice to have some way to try before you buy. Not many people tuning 5s. The guys with the 3s at least have a better chance of finding someone with a similar setup to what they're considering and maybe going for a test ride.

SandmanXP said:

...Of course, half the reason I went with non-stock was that the front struts were going bad too soon after being replaced - so, if the FSDs simply last longer I'd consider that a wash...

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That's a good point. Blowing the rears out at 40k is sort of ridiculous. It seems like for somewhere around $100-$200 a vehicle they could have beefed up the shocks on the 5 over the 3.

One great thing about Knoi products is that they come with a limited lifetime warranty (original owner). That said, I'd still go with Bilsteins HD!
http://www.koni-na.com/warranty.cfm

I'm just glad you didn't try to go with Koni Yellows with stock springs b/c that is not a good match.