Kia Rondos Demise In USA: Can Small People Movers Sell Here?

Kia Rondos Demise In USA: Can Small People Movers Sell Here?


With the Kia Rondo, it seems like it came in like a lamb and went out like a lamb. Nobody even noticed until someone sent in a tip to Autoblog. Even in its demise, Kia has been wishy-washy, simply stating that Kia has not yet decided on a 2011 model, but the 2010 is still available in dealerships even though the website makes it abundantly clear that the Rondo is gone in the USA, stating: All good things must come to an end.

Kia isnt the only manufacturer with reservations about this segment in the United States. Chevrolet has recently announced that it will not bring its people mover, the Chevrolet Orlando, to the USA. When pressed for details as to why, GM staffers offered few concrete details and hinted that they felt it would not have competed well in the U.S. market. Do they mean the product or the concept?

Speaking of small people movers, the Mazda5 is getting a complete makeover for 2011. Mazda execs say they are confident that the new model will increase sales, with Thomas Pixton, senior managing executive officer, telling Automotive News "Were looking for a sales increase in the new model because of increased environmental performance and a better interior. Mazda wants to sell between 20 and 30 thousand of the 2011 Mazda5. For perspective, Mazda sold 18,488 units in 2009.

Ford will also be dipping its toes in the water with the Focus-based Grand C-Max. What is the secret sauce that Ford believes will inspire Americans? "We tried to provide that functionality but with an aspirational design, says Derrick Kuzak, group vice president of Fords global product development team.

The problem, as many Americans see it, is that these small people movers offer few incentives over their larger brethren. Since full sized minivans are perennially on sale, the price difference between a mini minivan and a traditional model isnt that great.

When it comes to fuel economy, there is also little motivation. The national average for regular in the USA is currently $2.73. The 2010 Mazda5 is rated at 27MPG on the highway and the new 2011 model will post better numbers. However, at least one version of the full sized 2011 Honda Odyssey will offer an estimated 28 MPG on the highway. The four cylinder, EcoBoost equipped 2011 Ford Explorer will also be in this same ballpark. Again, a larger vehicle with little mileage penalty.

As a general rule, finding space for our vehicles in the USA is nowhere near the issue it is for Europeans. Of course, there are exceptions to this, but for the most part, cramming up to seven people into a smaller vehicle does not yield the significant parking benefits that it does for our European counterparts.

Where does this leave us? To be certain, there are reasons why the Rondo only sold 14,206 copies in the USA last year. It wasnt a particularly attractive design, didnt have the more practical sliding doors of the Mazda5 and Grand C-Max, it was not heavily marketed, and the whole industry was in a slump. In the meantime, Kias lineup has become far better looking with the new 2011 Kia Sportage and the 2011 Kia Optima sedan leading the way, making the Rondo a bit of an old maid.

With powertrain advancements making larger models much more efficient, the European style space wagon will have a tough row to hoe in the USA. The new Mazda and Ford products are quite attractive and that will help their case, but they will never reach the volume of mainstream crossovers and minivans. The best these vehicles can do is hope to carve out enough of a market niche to make their existence in the U.S. market worthwhile.



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Some of the statements look inaccurate, yet some potential answers for the why small people movers don't thrive around here in the US

coolmazda5 said:

Some of the statements look inaccurate, yet some potential answers for the why small people movers don't thrive around here in the US

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If a journalist has said it there's a number of people who will take it as gospel and not even think about it.
For example I had to give a friend a ride to pick up her computer. Upon getting in the car she asked "What car is this?" I told her it was a 5 and she admitted that she'd read about it but had already dismissed the vehicle as a potential replacement for her aging SUV. When we got to our location she said she really liked the 5...Then I gave her the dime tour (seats folding, under seat cargo etc.) I think she's sold.

I never really compared the Kia to the 5. To me, the Kia is more like the failed Mitsubishi Expo and Dodge Colt (the tall MPV version, not the little 5-seat hatchback) which speaks as to why it failed. The 5 has a certain flair that can't be found in true minivans. As for the mpgs, in the real world, the minivan/SUV penalty is apparant. Friend of mine picked up a Suzuki XL7, which was SUPPOSED to have similar fuel ecomomy to the Odyssey he got rid of. He called it "disappointing" and of course the Odyssey can't compare to the 5 fuel-wise, particularly in town.

I agree.
When we were shopping at the start of this year, all it took for me to dismiss this vehicle was a drive through the dealer's lot. So ugly.
The consideration was the optional third row seat. But without the sliding doors, it's not even in the same class as the 5.
My mother has an '09 Odyssey that shuts off two cylinders for the highway and it still can't approach our average mpg.

To me one of the most telling quotes is:

To be certain, there are reasons why the Rondo only sold 14,206 copies in the USA last year.​

I don't think the Mazda5 sold much more in 2009. Don't get me wrong, I think the Mazda 5 is much nicer but perhaps the same reasons why the Rondo didn't sell are the same reasons why the Mazda 5 sales are so low.

x10dude said:

To me one of the most telling quotes is:

To be certain, there are reasons why the Rondo only sold 14,206 copies in the USA last year.​

I don't think the Mazda5 sold much more in 2009. Don't get me wrong, I think the Mazda 5 is much nicer but perhaps the same reasons why the Rondo didn't sell are the same reasons why the Mazda 5 sales are so low.

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I remember when the 5 first came out Mazda said they'd be happy with 15,000 sold per year. Now they are looking for a bit more with the re-design.

The writer makes a wrong assumption when he says that the 5 is not popular because it gets the same gas mileage as an Odyssey. Like saying "both those chicks are blonde, why wouldn't you choose the 200 pounder over the 100 pounder?" Uh, maybe not everyone wants their trip to be an odyssey???

Note that I did not post this to bash the Rondo (evil), but to highlight the fact that the perception of many journalists and the actual shoppers out there is very different to what we, current Mazda5 owners, think of our cars unfortunately.

This article also applies to the delay of the 2011 Mazda5 (OK, 2012) if you ask (2011 Mazda Vehicles at a Glance). I hope the C-Max helps making the case to keep it even as a niche car

Rocket said:

I remember when the 5 first came out Mazda said they'd be happy with 15,000 sold per year. Now they are looking for a bit more with the re-design.

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Happy with only 15,000 sold? Wow those are really low expectations. I think the fact that Mazda is alot smaller than companies like Kia allows them to keep the Mazda5 with such low volume.

Until Mazda actually advertises this car and people finally begin to recognize it, it'll probably always be a small niche vehicle.

coolmazda5 said:

the perception of many journalists and the actual shoppers out there is very different to what we, current Mazda5 owners, think of our cars unfortunately.

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People tend to become very fond of their possessions and think it is the greatest thing on earth, which is why they choose it! Are you saying otherwise?!

Can’t comment on some of the quoted numbers specifically but generally I agree with this article. EVERYTHING is a trade-off and advantages of a MAV is getting smaller.

Key advantages of a MAV and why they are not as great.
1) Better MPG- This comes with tradeoffs in performance. Sure, you don’t need a V6 but if an I4 only nets a few MPG more yet performs slower and is not as refined (pt #3), why wouldn’t you? This is different if you driving habits favor an I4. The advantages are smaller as you start to haul more people/stuff with an I4 vs V6 in stop and go driving, and somewhat balances out at highway cruising. The I4 will edge out ahead but I’d take an efficient V6.

2) Smaller packaging- The US is built on highways and suburbia dwelling, unlike Europe and Asia, which has tightly knit cities and narrow roads. Smaller size is not necessarily an advantage is US but rather an overall disadvantage in my opinion. Sure, weight affects dynamics and MPG but the MAVs are no butterfly. I am a city dweller and the in-laws do not have a car so I’m in a unique situation where an infrequently used 6-7th seat is necessary and compact size helps with street parking. However, I don’t think my situation is the norm and will not help the overall MAV cause in the US. There will be a niche but it’s just that.

3) Lower price point- This is also a big reason why people look into MAV but there is also a reason why there are econoboxes, entry level, luxury, etc. segment. For the next higher price point, you get better quality of materials (not necessarily better build quality) and larger car. Material quality is a very important point that not many people think, know, or care about b/c it is very invisible (but tangible when you touch it). MAV, being lower entry cars, has a lack of quality in materials and insufficient insulation that contributes to overall NVH. Now a days, even the most basic econobox is well insulated but a MAV is less so than a typical minivan. It is my opinion cars based on a V6 architecture generally uses a stronger platform, which cost more along with other components need to support the V6 .

Even if someone were to produce a GT MAV with quality and refinement, it’ll still fail b/c it’ll cost too much and MAVs are perceived as ‘cheap’ people movers. In the US, you can’t win in this segment without being niche; otherwise, the Mz3 wagon is all car/space most people really need or they buy a minivan.

Actually the Rondo is really not going away as Hyundai is the parent company of Kia and sells the Elantra Touring, which is really a Kia Cee'd, which is in Europe and was brought over to the States as a Rondo. I imagine that Hyundai didn't want to have both of the same vehicles here and dropped the Kia badged version.

I owned a Rondo before an accident totaled it and when shopping I looked at the 5 instead. I went with the 5 because it is not only much better looking, but the sliding doors do make a lot of difference, and the interior has more cargo room than the Rondo did. The 5 also handles much better in the winter than the Rondo did. The Rondo did however have more back seat passenger room if you got the 5 seater version vs. the 7 seater. I drive a lot and the drivers seat in the Rondo was much more uncomfortable on a long trip than the 5's.

I think what many of the auto reviewers forget is that even though some of the bigger versions of mini-vans and so forth are catching up to the 5 in terms of gas mileage numbers the problem is that many of those vehicles also cost a lot more than a 5 does.

Since I use my 5 for making service calls and can rack up to 5k a month in mileage on it I was not about to spend $30k on an Odyssey or Sienna...

Silentnoise713 said:

People tend to become very fond of their possessions and think it is the greatest thing on earth, which is why they choose it! Are you saying otherwise?!

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Yes, but I know a lot of parents who would love a Sienna or an Odyssey just because media or other people say their are the best for families, or even just because the neighbors have one, but since they cannot afford it they get a cheaper SUV/CUV instead, rather than looking into i.e. a Mazda5. I know at least one person who recently asked me about the Mazda5 and he ended up buying a used Honda Pilot instead (freak). The guy only has 2 small kids...

So it is just perception which falls into the description of the article above.

Dellerane said:

Actually the Rondo is really not going away as Hyundai is the parent company of Kia and sells the Elantra Touring, which is really a Kia Cee'd, which is in Europe and was brought over to the States as a Rondo. I imagine that Hyundai didn't want to have both of the same vehicles here and dropped the Kia badged version.

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They might look similar, but belong to a very different segment I believe. The Elantra Touring is smaller than the Rondo, and it does not have an optional 3rd row seat...

And yes, sliding doors are awesome

http://www.truedelta.com/comparisons301/Rondo-vs-Elantra-Touring-price-comparison.php?session_code=

I'm just wondering what makes the 5 and Rondo so successful in parts of Canada (Vancouver, Toronto, Quebec,, Atlantic provinces) and not so much in the US or other parts of Canada. I think small vehicles are only popular where they make sense. In Edmonton Alberta where they favour trucks, SUVs, and standard minivans, I saw less than 5 in the 4 days I was there, whereas in Vancouver I never see less than 10 a day.

Parking -- parking stalls in Vancouver are SMALL. If you have a double cab 8' bed full size pickup, good luck parking anywhere in Vancouver. You might be able to find two street parking stalls, just make sure you pay for two meters. Even a normal size Ford F-150, SUVs and minivans are a challenge to park in the swaths of parkades that are very tight compared to the spacious American ones. Edmonton hardly has parkades as they have enough land to build swaths of surface parking lots, even the roads are wide. The medians on Edmonton's outer highways can fit Los Angeles' 18 lane highways in them.

Gas -- Gas is $4.35 a gallon in Vancouver and only $3.36 in Edmonton.

Snow -- Edmonton gets lots of snow, but they seem to have this mentality that small FWD cars don't do well in the snow.

Oil industry -- Albertans tend to have more disposable income for this reason, and I reckon that Americans enjoy a pretty good income to cost of living ratio as well. Edmontonians can buy a modest suburban house for under $400,000, a suburban house in Vancouver area goes for an average of $600,000, forcing many to live in under $400,000 townhouses that are big vehicle unfriendly. Even those who do live in single family homes face narrow streets that barely have 12 feet of width between cars parked on both sides. Yes one can navigate an SUV through these streets, but it's torture.

I'm sure parts of the US face similar conditions as Vancouver like Boston, Chicago, and San Francisco, or worse like New York, maybe people from other parts of this continent and world can chime in?

Dellerane said:

I think what many of the auto reviewers forget is that even though some of the bigger versions of mini-vans and so forth are catching up to the 5 in terms of gas mileage numbers the problem is that many of those vehicles also cost a lot more than a 5 does.

Since I use my 5 for making service calls and can rack up to 5k a month in mileage on it I was not about to spend $30k on an Odyssey or Sienna...

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There are two major faults in this comparison.

Firstly the Mz5 is not a minivan and therefore should not be used as the bases for comparison. Sure you can cross shop it but to compare the values is not correct. It is in a league of its own after all, especially now that the Rhondo is a goner.
Secondly, you are comparing a relatively less recognized brand to two highly valuable and recognized brands (Honda and Toyota) that command a premium (someone has to pay their marketing bills)!

A fair-er comparison would be IF Mazda brings back the MPV/Mz8/whatchamacallit minivan, the delta price between the base models between this and the Mz5 would be more accurate (be weary that the often touted base price of the Mz5 is a manual (I’m not complaining) but minivans are auto so there’s about ~$1K mark-up off the bat. Auto to auto, if the MPV/Mz8/whatchamacallit minivan cost $2.5-3K more, would you still opt for the Mz5? I am sure some would (like myself) but I imagine most prefer the comfort and convenience the extra $2.5-3K brings. I think it is b/c there is no cheap minivan/people mover alternative that the Mz5 is able to survive. With the Rhondo out of the picture, Mazda has better hopes of selling more -until the C-Max arrives…

http://www.mazda.co.jp/carlineup/

DKaz said:

I'm sure parts of the US face similar conditions as Vancouver like Boston, Chicago, and San Francisco, or worse like New York, maybe people from other parts of this continent and world can chime in?

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I live in downtown Phila and NYC and rarely (if ever) see one. For NY, I frequent Manhattan, Queens, and Bronx. (dunno)

Silentnoise713 said:

Firstly the Mz5 is not a minivan and therefore should not be used as the bases for comparison.
....
A fair-er comparison would be IF Mazda brings back the MPV/Mz8/whatchamacallit minivan]

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Sorry, a little confused by those statements...
The Mazda5 isn't a minivan and should be compared to minivans... but a fairer comparison is to compare it to Mazda's own minivan (the MPV) ??

i live in the san francisco, ca area, and I was literally the first one to buy one on our peninsula. mine was among the first boat load to arrive to our shores. i see quite a few of them in my area now, to the point that everyone here seems used to seeing them. the only double-take i get nowadays is surprise i get when i open the sliding doors...the vehicle doesn't look like a minivan. mazda knows that it does not have a hard time selling them, which is confirmed by my local dealer.

mazda's problem is that they simply don't have enough capacity to build enough of them. this the US market HAS NOT EVEN SEEN ONE commercial dedicated to the 5. the success of the car here is amazing considering that there isn't a mainstream marketing budget for it. I have already convinced three of my neighbors to buy the vehicle, and now i see them all the time!

kleptomaniak said:

mazda's problem is that they simply don't have enough capacity to build enough of them. this the US market HAS NOT EVEN SEEN ONE commercial dedicated to the 5. the success of the car here is amazing considering that there isn't a mainstream marketing budget for it.

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Now I certainly agree that the car does sell itself but we must remember that it has only sold a little over 10,000 cars so far this year. Decent but not "amazing" in my book.
I think most of us love our mazda 5's but we have to understand that realistically right now it's really a niche vehicle in the US. That might change with the new 2011 model. If Mazda manages to reach their stated goal of selling over 30K a year, then I think it will be considered mainstream.

x10dude said:

Sorry, a little confused by those statements...
The Mazda5 isn't a minivan and should be compared to minivans... but a fairer comparison is to compare it to Mazda's own minivan (the MPV) ??

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Let me try to phrase it this way. The key discussion point is comparing the value of a Mz5 to an Odyssey/Sienna.
The Mz5 should not be compared to minivans, especially not minivans from the two of the more -if not most recognized names in the minivan market. If you must compare it to a minivan then it would be fair-ER to compare it to Mazda's own minivan to get a better representation of price delta between a Mazda 5 and a minivan.

Despite what most Mazda5 owners think of the Rondo, I think that it's demise in the US market isn't good news for Mazda in the long run. Yes, it gets rid of what most people though was a competitor but it the end, if other vehicles of this type don't come to market soon, there will be even less attention given to this segment of the market in the US.