Mazdaspeed3 Brake Conversion on Mazda 5 ?

Finally, addendum...

Interesting side note: the caliper on the MZ5 has "FoMoCo" stamped on the vehicle-front end. You can just make it out in the MZ5_Cal1 image a few inches inboard of the "LH" stamp (the text is going down to up in the image). Apparently they didn't bother to restamp it for Mazda use!
 
If the piston sizes are the same and you're increasing the mechanical advantage that the front calipers have on the rotors vs stock, you could end up with a brake balance issue with the bias moving forward. I don't know if the 5 has an automatic load/brake balancing circuit in it or not (like a lot of trucks), but if the rears are doing significantly less work, you could actually have longer braking distances. You can fix this with a new proportioning valve (or master cylinder if it's contained in there) or an adjustable prop valve like Wilwood sells.

Just something to think about when making changes to the braking system. You can read up on the design methodology for some of the higher end big brake kit manufacturers- they worry about front/rear balance on upgrades.
 
Good point phunky, though I'm doubtful the braking distance/power would be decreased because of less rear bias because the bias % is fixed. And I don't think it can be adjusted like the old days by simply changing the bias valve because it's internal to the ABS controller. Don't quote me on that though.
 
the mazda5 has Electronic Brake Force Distrubution (EBFD) with ABS. changing brake sizes will not affect brake distrubution detrimentally.
 
flcruising said:
Good point phunky, though I'm doubtful the braking distance/power would be decreased because of less rear bias because the bias % is fixed. And I don't think it can be adjusted like the old days by simply changing the bias valve because it's internal to the ABS controller. Don't quote me on that though.
Click to expand...

The bias from the prop valve is usually fixed, but changing the piston sizes and increasing the diameter of your piston centers changes that bias unless you size everything just right. As far as changing the bias, you can with manual add-ons. They pretty much restrict flow down the brake lines that you install them on, so you can tweak your balance until you're happy.

njaremka said:
the mazda5 has Electronic Brake Force Distrubution (EBFD) with ABS. changing brake sizes will not affect brake distrubution detrimentally.
Click to expand...

Excellent. So the EBFD will compensate on the fly even with more braking force up front?
 
the.jack said:
Interesting side note: the caliper on the MZ5 has "FoMoCo" stamped on the vehicle-front end. You can just make it out in the MZ5_Cal1 image a few inches inboard of the "LH" stamp (the text is going down to up in the image). Apparently they didn't bother to restamp it for Mazda use!
Click to expand...

I just happened to notice on the Speed3 the other day when I was giving it a once over (after all my issues with my MZ5): the Speed calipers are stamped "Ate" in script that matches the popular aftermarket manufacturer out of Germany so the caliper bores being seemingly the same is probably just coincidence. But hey, at least it's not a Ford part!
 
the.jack said:
I just happened to notice on the Speed3 the other day when I was giving it a once over (after all my issues with my MZ5): the Speed calipers are stamped "Ate" in script that matches the popular aftermarket manufacturer out of Germany so the caliper bores being seemingly the same is probably just coincidence. But hey, at least it's not a Ford part!
Click to expand...
What year is your Speed3? Darn, mine are from a 2007 and has FoMoCo stamped on it :(. I am debating if I should rebuild it first but since it came off a wreck car with only about 30K on it is hard to justify the time and cost -nay for now. However, I do not trust rubber components from Mazda/Ford made in 2007 :/

Btw, I finally received my rotors from Tire Rack after two months waiting and it came from NJ! Order Date: 03/08/2012, Delivery Date: 05/08/2012. I still need to pick up a pair of bracket to hub bolts and should have everything done in the next week or two. The MS3 calipers and rotors look much more substantial (in comparison) but also weight the part. I don't look forward to the added unsprung weight but braking is important to me. Two scary moments that I'll never forget was jamming the brakes for an emergency stop but have the car plow forward due to 1) crappy brakes AND tires and 2) leaky master cyclinder.
 
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Silentnoise713 said:
What year is your Speed3? Darn, mine are from a 2007 and has FoMoCo stamped on it :(. I am debating if I should rebuild it first but since it came off a wreck car with only about 30K on it is hard to justify the time and cost -nay for now. However, I do not trust rubber components from Mazda/Ford made in 2007 :/
Click to expand...

That's curious. Her Speed is actually a 2008 1/2. Halfway through 08 they changed the interior a bit and they made the suspension more compliant. We actually got to drive a 2008 and a 2008.5 almost back to back and the first earlier version was crashy and squirrelly on pulbic roads. It's possible the 07-08s could be superior on a track, but for real world street driving the update feels more planted AND more comfortable. Was a great update and without decontenting! Anyway, I suppose it's possible brakes were a part of that update. Parts lookup says they should be the same, but you know how that goes. I am pretty sure Ate would not want to stamp their name on a Ford creation nor let Ford stamp its name on theirs, so... Again, curious. Do you have a photo of the caliper?

Silentnoise713 said:
Btw, I finally received my rotors from Tire Rack after two months waiting and it came from NJ! Order Date: 03/08/2012, Delivery Date: 05/08/2012. I still need to pick up a pair of bracket to hub bolts and should have everything done in the next week or two. The MS3 calipers and rotors look much more substantial (in comparison) but also weight the part. I don't look forward to the added unsprung weight but braking is important to me. Two scary moments that I'll never forget was jamming the brakes for an emergency stop but have the car plow forward due to 1) crappy brakes AND tires and 2) leaky master cyclinder.
Click to expand...
That's ridiculous how long it took. In this case I think the performance hit won't be so bad. It does surprise me you have complaints about the stock brakes. I never had concerns with braking performance on mine, which is why I just did a simple brake job rather than the conversion.

Good luck!
 
the.jack said:
That's curious. Her Speed is actually a 2008 1/2. Halfway through 08 they changed the interior a bit and they made the suspension more compliant. We actually got to drive a 2008 and a 2008.5 almost back to back and the first earlier version was crashy and squirrelly on pulbic roads. It's possible the 07-08s could be superior on a track, but for real world street driving the update feels more planted AND more comfortable. Was a great update and without decontenting! Anyway, I suppose it's possible brakes were a part of that update. Parts lookup says they should be the same, but you know how that goes. I am pretty sure Ate would not want to stamp their name on a Ford creation nor let Ford stamp its name on theirs, so... Again, curious. Do you have a photo of the caliper?


That's ridiculous how long it took. In this case I think the performance hit won't be so bad. It does surprise me you have complaints about the stock brakes. I never had concerns with braking performance on mine, which is why I just did a simple brake job rather than the conversion.

Good luck!
Click to expand...
I have pics on my phone but can't upload it. I'll post them tonight. I'm always interested in learnIng about undocumented changes. In this case, it sounds like sucks for me :(

I didn't mean to say those experiences apply to the Mz5. Incident one was a Del Sol and the other was the Miata. This left me with a new found respect for the ability to stop.
 
Silentnoise713 said:
I didn't mean to say those experiences apply to the Mz5. Incident one was a Del Sol and the other was the Miata. This left me with a new found respect for the ability to stop.
Click to expand...

Still, a Miata?! My first was a 99 without ABS and the only time I had a brake issue was when the pads were low and the fluid was VERY old - and likely very watery! New pads (Just Ultimax, nothing high-end) and fresh fluid (either Castrol LMA or Wilwood DOT3/4) and it was great. Of course you still had to pump. The Speed version of course had larger brakes and pads plus ABS and that thing can throw you through the windshield (rolling on Azenis doesn't hurt either).

But I suppose I'm getting off-topic now!
 
Silentnoise713 said:
Can you spot FoMoCo? Yes, it is terribly dirty and needs a bit of cleaning.
http://imageshack.us/f/834/calipers.jpg/

Regarding the Miata, it was a '91 with low mileage. The brakes are fine but the grommet mounting the brake reservoir developed (due to age) a leak. I R&R it and it is good again.
Click to expand...

I sure can! The unit otherwise looks the same, not that I have one in my hands to compare. I will poke around and see if there's a FoMoCo somewhere on her calipers later. I find that strange, indeed.

That leaky grommet is apparently very common that I never had the issue myself.
 
the.jack said:
I sure can! The unit otherwise looks the same, not that I have one in my hands to compare. I will poke around and see if there's a FoMoCo somewhere on her calipers later. I find that strange, indeed.

That leaky grommet is apparently very common that I never had the issue myself.
Click to expand...
We are going a little off topic but yes, this is common but understandable since it is a rubber piece and the NAs now qualify for 'Classic' plates :p

Here's a great how-to that I used to R&R it. I had all of the 'quirks' noted on this link, and others. Figure someone might find it useful if they have issues. Mechanical components should be mostly the same except our clutch and brake fluid is combined.
http://bellsouthpwp.net/P/o/PopVII/Clutch Slave Rebuild.htm
 
Silentnoise713 said:
What I am suspecting is that all you need is the MS3 caliper bracket -PERIOD (perhaps the bolts if length/diameter/pitch is different). You can then source your own favorite brand of aftermarket rotors and pads to make an awesome upgrade for very little money, essentially the cost of a pair of MS3 brackets (+bolts).

Quick search found this.
http://mazda3 revolution.com/forums/2010-mazda-3-wheels-tires/5395-2010-mz3-2-5l-ms3-front-brake-conversion-3.html
Not sure if the Mz5 piston are 57 or 38 but it should be usable nonetheless. Of course the bigger piston would be more effective.
Click to expand...

For future reference on MS3 vs Mz5 front brake components:
Caliper bodies - different (MS3 are made by Ate!)
Caliper brackets - different
Caliper slider pins - SAME
Caliper piston size - SAME I.D. Did not take O.D. or depth measurements -doh!
Caliper rebuild kit - SAME -according to RockAuto so this would lead one to believe the pistons are the same diameter
Bracket to hub bolts – SAME for us! I believe Mz3 folks have to buy two new bolts per caliper and they are not cheap!
Brake pads - different
Brake pad mounting hardware – different
Bleeder valves - different
Rotors - different
Dust Shield - different

If I have time and actually remember, I will measure them with my dial caliper.
 
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Silentnoise713 said:
Caliper piston size - Visually the MS3 piston body looks larger but did not have a good look at the Mz5 caliper since I did not dismount the pads for a visual. Need to confirm.
Click to expand...

They piston bores themselves are indeed very close, if not identical. I believe they are identical. Given that yours were stamped "FoMoCo", I wouldn't be surprised if there were some cost-savings using the same piston but in a heavier duty caliper (obviously the calipers themselves are larger to handle a larger pad too). In any case they apparently provide plenty of braking torque. I never had a complaint with the 5 in that regard and I'm just talking about the stockers.
 
the.jack said:
I just happened to notice on the Speed3 the other day when I was giving it a once over (after all my issues with my MZ5): the Speed calipers are stamped "Ate" in script that matches the popular aftermarket manufacturer out of Germany so the caliper bores being seemingly the same is probably just coincidence. But hey, at least it's not a Ford part!
Click to expand...
Guess I didn’t take a good look the first time but both the MS3 calipers and caliper brackets does indeed have “Ate” logo stamped on them! I really wasn't paying attention b/c the first pic I posted also had Ate stamped. Guess I, errr we (since no one else caught it eiher), were looking at them with FoMoCo hater glasses on :D
iphone091t.jpg

By silentnoise713 at 2012-08-08


the.jack said:
They piston bores themselves are indeed very close, if not identical. I believe they are identical. Given that yours were stamped "FoMoCo", I wouldn't be surprised if there were some cost-savings using the same piston but in a heavier duty caliper (obviously the calipers themselves are larger to handle a larger pad too). In any case they apparently provide plenty of braking torque. I never had a complaint with the 5 in that regard and I'm just talking about the stockers.
Click to expand...
I’ll let pics do the talking. Note, I might have nudge the Mz5 dial a little but you get the idea.

MS3
iphone084.jpg

By silentnoise713 at 2012-08-08

Mz5
iphone085.jpg

By silentnoise713 at 2012-08-08



Any advice on a quick way to get rust off the hub? This stuff does NOT want to come off and the nooks around the center bore and lug bolts make it harder to clean… I don't want to take the bolts out. Tried wire brush, sand paper, brake cleaner, engine degreaser, aircraft stripper (figure I give it a try :p). Only thing I did not try is a grinding disc but I’m afraid I’ll eat away at one area too much and leave an uneven surface. I may use a wire disc for the outter rings as that is that's really makes the rotor stick.

Anyone know of a chemical that can eat away at rust (set it and forget it)? I also have a can of rust converter, which convert the rust into an another material. Maybe I can more easily scrape it off then? Thoughts?
iphone074.jpg

By silentnoise713 at 2012-08-08
 
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For anyone considering this, I've learned of a few small things you need to be aware of.

-Mz5 brake dust shield (bottom portion, see pic in above post) does not fit MS3 rotors. Can bend it straight, remove it all together (one piece, 3 bolts), or get MS3 dust shield.
-If you are doing SS lines, you need to make a small mod on the where the line mounts on the shock body else it will rub (you don't want that with SS lines or any lines for that matter). Made a simple DIY solution.

Won't get to finish till Friday and I have to find a way to really clean the hub first too... I've been enjoying the Fit too much but have gripes about that car too -Vtek (I kid). Averaging 35 MPG, dead serious.
 
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