FS-DE Oil System

Yeah..I totally wasn't thinking when I typed in about the "Sandwich" plate and then relocating the filter....DOH!

And I am Running Stock Bearings....From Mazda....Will be running Mobil 1 syn after break in and everything better be in specs on clearance.

I didnt assemble the motor..I had a reputable Shop in town do that along with the neccessary machine work.

SO we would be Bypassing the PRV in the pump completely....Running the oil externally through a PRV and then back to the filter as the required pressure is met.
Correct?

SO in essences..a plate..the PRV..the oil pump...and some lines and where does the fitting in the MBSP come into play here.....?

A diagram of whats going to take place would greatly help.

I am all about this and I am willing to be the first "street" guy in on this....So lets work this out.

I have a pump here just sitting I was going to check tolerances on, but it does have 80K on it..so I might just spring for a new one for this deal.

Explain the routing on this again...I am following everything but where the MBSP comes into play here?
 
ForceFed said:
Yeah..I totally wasn't thinking when I typed in about the "Sandwich" plate and then relocating the filter....DOH!

And I am Running Stock Bearings....From Mazda....Will be running Mobil 1 syn after break in and everything better be in specs on clearance.

I didnt assemble the motor..I had a reputable Shop in town do that along with the neccessary machine work.

SO we would be Bypassing the PRV in the pump completely....Running the oil externally through a PRV and then back to the filter as the required pressure is met.
Correct?

SO in essences..a plate..the PRV..the oil pump...and some lines and where does the fitting in the MBSP come into play here.....?

A diagram of whats going to take place would greatly help.

I am all about this and I am willing to be the first "street" guy in on this....So lets work this out.

I have a pump here just sitting I was going to check tolerances on, but it does have 80K on it..so I might just spring for a new one for this deal.

Explain the routing on this again...I am following everything but where the MBSP comes into play here?
Click to expand...


The pressure relief valve whether it is the factory one or the external one as we use needs to bleed off pressure to prevent spikes/over-pressuring the system. This bleed off needs to go somewhere. It is released internally in the factory relief valve. When you use an external valve it has a port that needs to be able to dump the pressure. This is where the port on the MBSP comes in. Therefore you would need to hook up a hose from this port on the external relief valve to a fitting on the MBSP. I recommend the MBSP because like the drain hose on the turbo you want unimpeded flow. A port on the pan will be covered by oil unless it is built with a diverter plate around it (lots of work). The oil level is usually not as high as the MBSP so it should allow the needed unimpeded flow....
 
Agh..O iforgot about the oil we will be bypassing.
Very simple thing for me to miss.
I see the whole picture now...I do ..I do. (yes)

So...Let me see....

I would need to source the following:
  • Oil Filter Sanwich plate with at least 1 External line (two prefferred for me for an oil feed for my turbo)
  • Lines to the PRV from the Plate, From the PRV to the Oil pan OR MBSP
  • Fitting for the MBSP or Oil Pan
  • An oil pump supplied to you
You would supply :
  • Changing the oil pump and having ST coat it, Checking it and sending it back
  • a PRV valve
Is this a correct list of needed items here?
 
ForceFed said:
Agh..O iforgot about the oil we will be bypassing.
Very simple thing for me to miss.
I see the whole picture now...I do ..I do. (yes)

So...Let me see....

I would need to source the following:
  • Oil Filter Sanwich plate with at least 1 External line (two prefferred for me for an oil feed for my turbo)
  • Lines to the PRV from the Plate, From the PRV to the Oil pan OR MBSP
  • Fitting for the MBSP or Oil Pan
  • An oil pump supplied to you
You would supply :
  • Changing the oil pump and having ST coat it, Checking it and sending it back
  • a PRV valve
Is this a correct list of needed items here?
Click to expand...

You are very close.....

The sandwich plate would need two lines. One out and one in. The external PRV will have three ports on it: oil in, oil out, and bypass oil. You will have a hose from the sandwich plate to the external PRV, a line out of the external PRV back to the sandwich plate, and a line from the bypass port on the external PRV to the MBSP.

Otherwise, it looks like you have it covered.

I would like to look into the sandwich plates a bit more to make sure the flow is not too impeded before I am okay with this. I'll try to search a bit later online and I will let you know....

Also, I think the best place to source the oil for the turbo is where the factory did with a "t" fitting at the sensor mount...
 
Would it do any good to just do the pump on an N/A motor? I dont race my car but do occasionally like to drive the heck out of it and dont want to join the BoomBoom club due to oil starvation.
 
As a preventative measure it'd probably be good in any Protege. You're not going to see any sort of performance increase but you'll have the peace of mine knowing your engine will not blow going around a corner, which is always a good thing :)

I'm still interested in the upgraded pump and pan. I'm not sure if I could get everything else to work with what I want to do. I guess I could find a sandwich plate with 4 ports (one in, one out, and two sensor ports) I could do something but then there's the issue of routing the oil cooler (which I guess could be run either before or after the pressure thing). Well, maybe this could work...
 
magnumP5 said:
As a preventative measure it'd probably be good in any Protege. You're not going to see any sort of performance increase but you'll have the peace of mine knowing your engine will not blow going around a corner, which is always a good thing :)

I'm still interested in the upgraded pump and pan. I'm not sure if I could get everything else to work with what I want to do. I guess I could find a sandwich plate with 4 ports (one in, one out, and two sensor ports) I could do something but then there's the issue of routing the oil cooler (which I guess could be run either before or after the pressure thing). Well, maybe this could work...
Click to expand...


The pan is something that we have built for ourselves but didn't really have an interest in producing since it is so labor intensive. I could check with our fabricator to see what type of turn around time and official price he would need. I would expect though that the pan will be in the neighborhood of $750-$800.

Do you really need the oil cooler? Do you know what oil temps you have been running?

If you are thinking of going with the external PRV then there are fittings that you can plumb in one of the lines that have ports for sensors.

Would it do any good to just do the pump on an N/A motor? I dont race my car but do occasionally like to drive the heck out of it and dont want to join the BoomBoom club due to oil starvation.
Click to expand...

The DBR blueprinted pump is an improvement over the standard pump in ability to provide pressure. However, if you still use the stock PRV in the pump you will still be prone to falling oil pressures with sustained use of the motor.
 
MP3racer said:
The pan is something that we have built for ourselves but didn't really have an interest in producing since it is so labor intensive. I could check with our fabricator to see what type of turn around time and official price he would need. I would expect though that the pan will be in the neighborhood of $750-$800.

Do you really need the oil cooler? Do you know what oil temps you have been running?

If you are thinking of going with the external PRV then there are fittings that you can plumb in one of the lines that have ports for sensors.
Click to expand...
Ah I see, I can still always go with the AWR pan but I was curious at to what your design was. As for the oil cooler, I would love to actually take my car to a track someday such as VIR and IIRC, they require oil coolers on turbocharged cars or something like that. About 10 times a year currently I also do mountain "fun runs" which I won't get into because of forum rules but I will say that some have lasted upwards of three hours. The near constant high-RPM driving for long periods of time makes me think I need an oil cooler. I doesn't have to be huge, just something over not having any at all. Hell, the stock MSPs have a dinky little water to oil cooler just beneath the filter. Good to know about the external PRV though.
 
magnumP5 said:
Ah I see, I can still always go with the AWR pan but I was curious at to what your design was. As for the oil cooler, I would love to actually take my car to a track someday such as VIR and IIRC, they require oil coolers on turbocharged cars or something like that. About 10 times a year currently I also do mountain "fun runs" which I won't get into because of forum rules but I will say that some have lasted upwards of three hours. The near constant high-RPM driving for long periods of time makes me think I need an oil cooler. I doesn't have to be huge, just something over not having any at all. Hell, the stock MSPs have a dinky little water to oil cooler just beneath the filter. Good to know about the external PRV though.
Click to expand...


The AWR pan is decent but doesn't have any gates as far as I know.

A cooler would help in your situation. Actually, water to oil coolers are quite effective. I'm not familiar with the one from the MSP but may be an option. Would decrease the routing of lines. Otherwise, you would route your lines from the external PRV to the oil cooler, out of of the cooler back to the block. Basically placing it inline with the rest of the "stuff".
 
Dude.....All I am waitng for is some numbers in my PM box.
I told you..Lets do this...I will be the Street "Guinea pig".
Everything is apart right now...so the install will be fairl easy for me.
 
ForceFed said:
Dude.....All I am waitng for is some numbers in my PM box.
I told you..Lets do this...I will be the Street "Guinea pig".
Everything is apart right now...so the install will be fairl easy for me.
Click to expand...


What numbers do you need? The pump would be $100 plus your pump or I will check with Mazda on a new pump on Monday. The external PRV's are $125. Can you handle the rest? Do you need me to look into getting a fitting welded onto the MBSP?
 
Oh no..Thats fine..I never saw a price on the PRV..thats what I was waiting for.
Sorry man.
I can handle the welding....and sourcing a sandwich plate...Let me see what I can come up with now.
Thanks
Sorry.
 
MP3racer said:
The AWR pan is decent but doesn't have any gates as far as I know.

A cooler would help in your situation. Actually, water to oil coolers are quite effective. I'm not familiar with the one from the MSP but may be an option. Would decrease the routing of lines. Otherwise, you would route your lines from the external PRV to the oil cooler, out of of the cooler back to the block. Basically placing it inline with the rest of the "stuff".
Click to expand...
The AWR pan is large and has baffles - I'm not certain on what 'gates' are so you'd have explain that one. As far as I know the MSP oil coolers are not available anymore and it would require getting a longer threaded stud for the oil filter because the cooler sits under the oil filter like a sandwich plate - which further causes problems. I'm still planning on a small air to oil mounted in front of the radiator or possibly a water to oil somewhere behind the block because I have the provision for the coolant supply, just not the coolant.
 
ForceFed said:
Oh no..Thats fine..I never saw a price on the PRV..thats what I was waiting for.
Sorry man.
I can handle the welding....and sourcing a sandwich plate...Let me see what I can come up with now.
Thanks
Sorry.
Click to expand...


BTW...checked - oil pump from mazda around $125 LMK (would take 5 working days to get here)
 
magnumP5 said:
The AWR pan is large and has baffles - I'm not certain on what 'gates' are so you'd have explain that one. As far as I know the MSP oil coolers are not available anymore and it would require getting a longer threaded stud for the oil filter because the cooler sits under the oil filter like a sandwich plate - which further causes problems. I'm still planning on a small air to oil mounted in front of the radiator or possibly a water to oil somewhere behind the block because I have the provision for the coolant supply, just not the coolant.
Click to expand...

Yes, I have seen an AWR pan (or one of their versions). It has a baffle plate below the main bearing caps to prevent oil splash but does not have any box with trap doors around the oil pick-up to prevent it from getting uncovered. Again, may be good enough for street????

You can run a cooler infront of the radiator but if your car is turbo'd you may already have a FMIC, radiator, and power steering cooler out front (besides an A/C condensor if you have that too). The "competition" for the cooling airstream starts to get strained and all suffer.

Also, running the cooler out front creates some long hoses to plumb it in.

Not saying that is not the way to go for you. Just pointing out some issues you may want to consider....

Welcome to the problems we had in designing the race car!
 
I Wish this conversation would have started happening about a month ago. My engine is already put back together and going in the car this week.

Would an Accusump help the our oil pressure drop at high rpms or would it be a waste of money? The reason I ask is I am not going to be taking apart the motor again anytime soon and would like more peace of mind without a total rebuild. I remember docB that you mentioned something about a dry sump system. Can you elaborate on that?

Happy Easter!
 
jimmysuite said:
I Wish this conversation would have started happening about a month ago. My engine is already put back together and going in the car this week.

Would an Accusump help the our oil pressure drop at high rpms or would it be a waste of money? The reason I ask is I am not going to be taking apart the motor again anytime soon and would like more peace of mind without a total rebuild. I remember docB that you mentioned something about a dry sump system. Can you elaborate on that?

Happy Easter!
Click to expand...

An Accusump will help some but is really designed for single occurances of low oil pressure rather than the continuous degredation in oil pressure we have seen.
 
Here is a pic of our external pressure relief valve....

The size is about 1.5" X 4.5" without the fittings
 

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Good thing I haven't built my engine yet. When I do decide to get it done im going to go with a dry sump system, because I have no intentions on building my engine twice, so im going to take all the precautionary measures the first time. Im glad this thread came up, it helps all of us learn about some of the FSDE shortcomings. thanks DocB
 
jimmysuite said:
I remember docB that you mentioned something about a dry sump system. Can you elaborate on that?
Click to expand...

The dry sump system is a whole different animal. Now you are getting into real high dollar racing systems definitely not designed for "street" use. The pump alone for a dry sump is in the $350 range! Then you need a special pan, tons of AN lines, a sump tank, a place to mount the sump tank (like in the trunk as the World Challenge cars did), etc. I can elaborate on their use but I don't think they are the correct application here....
 
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