NA Tech Race to 100whp per 1000cc's

Glad someone believes its at least possible. As to whether or not i'll ever get there, nobody knows.

anything within the laws of thermodynamics and within the limits of volumetric effeciency is POSSIBLE.

probability is the only real killer.... :)
 
I would have said "insufficient funds" is the killer.

there is that too

the guy i intend to use to build my engine gave me a headache, when he said, and i quote "what you are planning is highly experimental"

all i heard was "IT COST YOU LOTS OF MONEY!"
:p
 
Best of luck everyone, I am going for 500+ WHP ;) But it is alot easier with 30 psi/ methanol and nitrous!! NA with the 2.0 getting 200 WHP will be impressive!!
Rob
 
Best of luck everyone, I am going for 500+ WHP ;) But it is alot easier with 30 psi/ methanol and nitrous!! NA with the 2.0 getting 200 WHP will be impressive!!
Rob

you been into the keg again mate? last time we spoke it was 450+ WHP.. the time before that it was "i'd be happy with 400 WHP"
:p
 
I should put a K20 in and slap a mazda sticker on it. That would definitely be a mazda motor then.
 
I would love to try this with a ZM but I doubt I'll get close enough to the 100hp per Liter. It is a good experiment though as I'd like to go turbo in the end. If i can at least reach 110hp at the wheels that would be great seeing as how the turbo would almost double that. Well not really but close enough. I displace at 1.597 so theres no way in hell I'll reach 159.7hp on the mods I had planned! It's worth the effort though.
 
There might be a car that has set your requirements. It belongs to a tech at Delray Mazda. It is a MP3 with a J -spec engine. The engine has been worked on pistons,cams,crank, engine man. etc. From what I heard the cars makes 220whp all engine. The car might be going up for sale for around 10 grand. The engine is so loose he shifts at 8000 rpm or higher. Go figure it might be a good buy.
 
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Did everyone forget about the tripoint proteges in the speed world challenge? 240whp fs-de (tunning was key)

EDIT: I think they'll actually sell you one in crate motor form.
 
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Did everyone forget about the tripoint proteges in the speed world challenge? 240whp fs-de (tunning was key)

EDIT: I think they'll actually sell you one in crate motor form.

tuning is one of the keys :) those of us crazy enough to try this either have, or will soon have after market management.

But theres only so far you can go with a tune alone - yes its true, our engines respond wonderfully to fuel control, and even more to timing control - but the stock intake manifold just will not flow enough air. All the aftermarket headers (read that again, all the after market headers) that i have seen, or heard about, will not support that kind of power from an FS-DE....

Finally, rod length bites us in the behind when it comes to getting the engines to rev.

The keys to doing it:

Custom intake manifold
Custom tuned 4-1 headers0
Better rod ratio to support between 8000rpm and 9000rpm (it can be done...)
Engine management.
some pretty wild head work.

Of course, lots of those things bring along their own problems.

But it is CERTAINLY not beyond the laws of physics for our little motors to make (relatively) incredible horsepower without forced induction. Not by a long shot.
 
Did everyone forget about the tripoint proteges in the speed world challenge? 240whp fs-de (tunning was key)

EDIT: I think they'll actually sell you one in crate motor form.

yeah they are called grenade motors...they didnt last long at all compared to everyone else.


BTW anybody really serious about this may want to contact kinsler fuel injection as they make custom ITB's which i believe is going to be almost essential to making this HP goal reliably. Here is a setup from a honda with a top mount injector setup

KinlserTopFeedBisimoto.jpg
 
yeah they are called grenade motors...they didnt last long at all compared to everyone else.


BTW anybody really serious about this may want to contact kinsler fuel injection as they make custom ITB's which i believe is going to be almost essential to making this HP goal reliably. Here is a setup from a honda with a top mount injector setup

KinlserTopFeedBisimoto.jpg

Tunnel ram should theoretically give higher gains than quads....

Reason being, tunnel rams start forcing air in at wherever they are tuned to do so.

Quads cannot leverage reflected sound waves to force air in, because the negative waves reflected off the valve are lost to atmosphere when they pass the quads.

in a tunnel ram, they are reflected back, as positive pressure waves, and when tuned to coincide with an open valve, provide boosted air (and as such it is possible to push an NA Motor beyond 100% VE).

Quads are cool though... but i'd be worried about the emmissions cops with the injectors sitting up like that ;)

(if anyone wants to do quads on a budget, 4AGE blacktop quads can be modified to suite our purpose)
 
ohh i know how a tunnel ram works but good luck fitting one in a protege engine bay

btw black top and silver tops had the ITB setup they are the same
 
ohh i know how a tunnel ram works but good luck fitting one in a protege engine bay

btw black top and silver tops had the ITB setup they are the same

blacktop quads have a bigger throttle bore...which is more closely matched (from what i can tell) to our engines.

Tunnel ram - 3rd order tunnel ram, tuned to give the largest kick up around 8k rpm should fit nicely in the protege engine bay... i've measured it up ;) Mind you it requires you to drive the engine past 8000rpm - i intend to go well past that number, so 3rd order works well for me.

3rd reflection wave should give a kick of between 4psi and 7psi, depending on how good it turns out :)

theres no way on earth you could get a second or first order under there, but that being said, apparently NASCAR's only run 3rd order tunnel rams...

you could get a 2nd or 1st order tuned manifold in there (with curves etc - curves = bad though) but straight runner, tunnel ram setup, 3rd order is about as crazy as you'll get to fit.
 
hmm learn something new...i was under the impression the only difference between the black top and silver top was ECU tuning and map vs Vaf
 
(cool) Things are definitely heating up in this thread...You guys are posting some really juicy info...I can't wait to see the build get started for those who have the funds and enough "bolts" loose to take on this challenge!

I wonder if 200whp is possible without spending an enormous amount of cash...creativity and ingenuity will play an important role in reducing the overall cost...Don't give up!
 
hmm learn something new...i was under the impression the only difference between the black top and silver top was ECU tuning and map vs Vaf

bit off topic but - there are differences in the porting and head as well.

if you are at all interested, (and for anyone who is interested in poaching the quads for their build) the blacktop quads are 48mm bore, the silvertop quads are 45mm bore...

Antoine said:
Things are definitely heating up in this thread...You guys are posting some really juicy info...I can't wait to see the build get started for those who have the funds and enough "bolts" loose to take on this challenge!

I wonder if 200whp is possible without spending an enormous amount of cash...creativity and ingenuity will play an important role in reducing the overall cost...Don't give up!

I wish it was cheap and easy :p but yeah, creativity is going to determine the winner. You need to try and get your cash going as far as it can. And you gotta build 'em tough, or it'll all end in tears, guaranteed. I think, thanks to everyones posts, that the basic "recipe" for the build is well known now.. but getting that power built, reliably, is going to be the real challenge :)

My wife has put further constraints on me, the car has to remain "drivable" by her standards....:eek: in her opinion its not even drivable now :p
 
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