New MS3 Buyer

Hey guys,
I have a big decision to make! It all boils down to this: I'm looking for a new turbo hatch to buy, and I'm considering the MS3 and VW GTI. I'm coming from a ~230whp 2.3L turbo'd Focus, so that's kind of my performance benchmark, and I'm looking to upgrade substantially in the refinement department. I know opinions from this board will be biased, and that's exactly what I'm looking for

MS3 Pros:
- Good power (although not as fast as the Focus, what with all the gadgetry and electronics that kill this car's phenominal power, so I was a little disappointed)
- An LSD
- It's a "Ford" product. I work for Ford, so I wouldn't feel as guilty driving a car that's at least part of the Ford "umbrella"
Cons:
- Lack of option content (no sunroof, heated seats, mirrors or wiper fluid, one-touch windows, key-off radio & windows, etc)
- Rubbery shifter

GTI Pros:
- Literally every option/feature I could ever ask for in a vehicle.
- Fantastic interior/seats/function. Everything is tight, flush, attractive, clean -- I really liked it.
Cons:
- Not a Ford product
- Fairly slow. Only has 200bhp, but I'm told that a simple reflash can get you to 250. Not sure on the price or extent of VW aftermarket.

So what I'm wondering is everyone's take. Can the bad ECU controls be overcome on the Mazda? From what I've read so far, I'm not interested in hardwiring anything in (XEDE). Has anyone driven/ridden in a souped up FWD with >230 whp that can be really compared to their MS3? Maybe the car I drove was a fluke, or I didn't have long enough to get a good feel for the car. Also worth noting is that I have most of my turbo stuff from the Focus, such as GT2560R turbo, manual boost controller, FMIC, 42# injectors, etc etc. But I don't think I could use any of it with the Mazda due to ECU/tuning limitations.

I appreciate any feedback!!

You can actually chip a GTI to around ~280 WHP and 300 WTQ. They're animals.. the downside to your pros (- Literally every option/feature I could ever ask for in a vehicle.) is that the GTi becomes a 30k car when you factor in the options.

You see GTI's on every corner... not so with MSP3's... at least around here. I'm new to the MSP3, but one thing that I had read in my 'pre-buy' research was that the reliability of the Mazda was a bit better. Either one are nice cars.

Yeah, what it comes down to is your personal preferences. I definately would not discount something just based on brand loyalty. I liked the way the GTI looked at an autoshow, but did not even bother with a test drive strictly due to the above mentioned price variance. If I was going to spend $30,000 on a car, I would have gotten an Infinity G35. Plain and simple, the Mazda is the perfect compromise in performance and function. I love driving it, but am not really interested in racing or mods, but it still fits my functions of being able to carry pretty much anything from Home Depot/Menards(except 4x8 sheets of material or appliances). Also fools those less knowlgeable thinking it's a regular 3. Those here that want to modify though seem to have been succesful to an extent, although from what I've read nothing yet to control ECU. My only personal complaint with the torque limiter is sometimes when I want to make a fast, sharp turn from a complete stop (ie. stop sign onto busy road), that 90 deg turn of steering wheel sometimes feels dangerously slow in the limited power, and then.......once you straighten it out a sudden burst comes on. Have you driven both? If so, what did you like better based only on the test drive, not features?

coming from the vw world, they are tempting machines....

i priced out the ms3 gt w/nav and then a GTi with all of the similar features (4 door, 18" wheels, lip kit, leather, nav, etc) and it was about 5k more in cost.

there is a huge scene for vw, and the vendors for aftermarket never end... literallly.

www.42draftdesigns.com
www.usrallyteam.com
www.goapr.com
www.giacusa.com
www.atpturbo.com
www.hpamotorsports.com
www.eiptuning.com
www.20squared.com
www.kineticmotorsport.com
www.bahnbrenner.com
www.ecstuning.com
www.dubsquared.net
www.v-sport.net

metric motorsports
kintec motorsports

forums:

www.vwvortex.com
www.vdubaddiction.com
www.vwfixx.com

my buddy has a chipped mk5 (the new gti) with all bolt ons.... intake, turboback exhaust, suspension, wheels, etc.... he wasn't even close to taking me from a digg, 20, 40, 60 punch... I'd say he's about 260whp, 290wtq, and at 3400lbs, they're quite heavy. they're great cars no doubt, but I don't think you'll see innovative products such as CP-E's stuff or ProtegeGarage stuff, nor will you see the numbers that you want to see, or a feeling better than your focus...

i'm at 262whp, 332wtq with about $300 in mods on the ms3.

images for giggles and potential...

vw's have lots of electrical problems from what ive heard.

Get a Volvo C30. It's the perfect Middle ground in terms of power and refinement. It's affordable, under the ford umbrella, and it shares the chassis platform with the MS3. Just my 2 cents.

mistermatt said:

vw's have lots of electrical problems from what ive heard.

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yeah they have had a lot of quality control issues with vw. the gti and passat i would trust the most just for the fact they are the only 2 vdubs built in germany.
and the volvo c30 is going to be a nice ride. there is a review in the latest car and driver and they seemed to like it. it has the turbo 5 cylinder.

Adammazda06 said:

yeah they have had a lot of quality control issues with vw. the gti and passat i would trust the most just for the fact they are the only 2 vdubs built in germany.
and the volvo c30 is going to be a nice ride. there is a review in the latest car and driver and they seemed to like it. it has the turbo 5 cylinder.

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just because you own a passat or gti doesn't mean it was built in germany. i don't know if all of the mk5's are... but you can tell where its built by the VIN and the first three characters:

3VW = mexico factory
VVW = german built

mrlilguy157 said:

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awww they look like cars babys would drive. very cute +1 kawaii ^::^

Rotary_Powered said:

Get a Volvo C30. It's the perfect Middle ground in terms of power and refinement. It's affordable, under the ford umbrella, and it shares the chassis platform with the MS3. Just my 2 cents.

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screw refinement get a fd (cabpatch)

Thanks for the replies guys! I don't have time to check out the links this morning but I read the replies and wanted to at least respond and thank everyone for the great info

mrlilguy157 said:

...i priced out the ms3 gt w/nav and then a GTi with all of the similar features (4 door, 18" wheels, lip kit, leather, nav, etc) and it was about 5k more in cost.

my buddy has a chipped mk5 (the new gti) with all bolt ons.... intake, turboback exhaust, suspension, wheels, etc.... he wasn't even close to taking me from a digg, 20, 40, 60 punch... I'd say he's about 260whp, 290wtq, and at 3400lbs, they're quite heavy. they're great cars no doubt, but I don't think you'll see innovative products such as CP-E's stuff or ProtegeGarage stuff, nor will you see the numbers that you want to see, or a feeling better than your focus...

i'm at 262whp, 332wtq [(hump)] with about $300 in mods on the ms3.

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Thanks lilguy. Right now I'm looking at 26k and change OTD for a MS3 GT with autodimming mirror, and 28k and change OTD for a GTI 3-door manual with only the "Autobahn" package (sunroof, heated seats, upgraded sound).

If I may ask, what mods have you gone with to achieve your power? And am I understanding that your car is faster than your buddy's GTI in just about any scenario? The thing I found about the MS3 in my admittedly short test drive is that its peak power numbers may not mean much. What good is 263bhp if it's limited in 1st and 2nd and at high revs in any gear. But, the concensus among everyone is that it's still a fast car. If yours beats a ~260whp GTI, that's saying something (3-door GTIs are only 3100 lbs, btw). Do your mods allow you more power thruout the power band?

The COBB parts so far look promising, and I'm sure the MS3's power would be wicked. Also batting for the Mazda is the fact that I just might get crucified for driving a VW to work in Dearborn every day!

Thanks again for the help guys!

bacarl said:

Thanks lilguy. Right now I'm looking at 26k and change OTD for a MS3 GT with autodimming mirror, and 28k and change OTD for a GTI 3-door manual with only the "Autobahn" package (sunroof, heated seats, upgraded sound).

If I may ask, what mods have you gone with to achieve your power? And am I understanding that your car is faster than your buddy's GTI in just about any scenario? The thing I found about the MS3 in my admittedly short test drive is that its peak power numbers may not mean much. What good is 263bhp if it's limited in 1st and 2nd and at high revs in any gear. But, the concensus among everyone is that it's still a fast car. If yours beats a ~260whp GTI, that's saying something (3-door GTIs are only 3100 lbs, btw). Do your mods allow you more power thruout the power band?

The COBB parts so far look promising, and I'm sure the MS3's power would be wicked. Also batting for the Mazda is the fact that I just might get crucified for driving a VW to work in Dearborn every day!

Thanks again for the help guys!

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I could take the fully bolt on/chipped mk5 GTI in any race no doubt about it. Although the first few gears are limited, with the DSC/Traction control hack, its hardly even noticable. I chirp 2nd and 3rd all the time when driving hard, and thats with freshly rotated tires (practically 85% tread life on the potenza's up front now). I have no regrets getting the mazdaspeed3. With the forged crank and sorta-forged rods, a 16v head (just like mk5 gti), a 6speed trans (same as mk5 gti), and an LSD (no lsd for mk5), the mazdaspeed puts it over the top, and like said before, the limited production of the mazdaspeed3 has something to be said for too...

My mods are as follows:

TurboXS Hybrid BOV - $230
JoeP manual boost controller set at 20psi -$25
K&N drop in filter - $35
ATP Boost Cut Killer Module - $75


I also took my other friends BT 1.8t mk4 GTi which has a huge EuroJet FMIC, intake, custom Revo tune, 580cc injectors at 3bar, and a gt28r turbo. He's a closer race than the mk5 gti, and he dyno's about 270whp.

The LSD in this car is really what sets it off from dig-races.

Get the ms3, you'll have no regrets. Honestly, I don't think you'd have regrets with either car. The VW definately has a bigger modd scene and aftermarket scene, no doubt about it, and the interior is killer. But VW's have a reputation of being CEL cars for life, although its always something minor, its still a hassle.

Both cars are nice, the ONLY reason I didn't get the VW is because with all of the same options as the ms3 it was soooooo much more money, and I couldn't justify $5000 for a nicer interior, yet a weaker driveline... I love VW's, and if you go that route, I can send you tons of info or get you deals on anything imaginable.

The mazda is great, I love it, and slowly but surely the mods are coming, all from CobbTuning, CP-E, AutoEXE, ProtegeGarage, everyone is innovating new products at great prices, and I've ran into 2 out of 3 dealerships that are very very very mod-friendly. I'm happy, and will be for a good amount of time. The question is.... do I take my $6000 I have and spend it on the car, or save it and say, "its just a car" - I keep going back and forth. But if I do built it up, it'll be waayyyyy faster and more reliable than $6k put into a VW.

oh ya.... and as far as the powerband goes:

i'm above 310wtq at 3400rpms, and reach 330wtq at 4300rpms. 260whp is at 4300rpms too.

it throws ya back in your seat.

Thanks again, dude, more great info Already have a small downpayment on a black GT that will arrive at my dealer this week!

mrlilguy157 said:

oh ya.... and as far as the powerband goes:

i'm above 310wtq at 3400rpms, and reach 330wtq at 4300rpms. 260whp is at 4300rpms too.

it throws ya back in your seat.

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What happens above 5500?

One issue that never gets brought up in these situations is resale. I can tell you that 99% of the car buying population in the open market doesn't know or care what a Mazdaspeed product is Whereas everyone knows a GTI.

Of course if its never in your plan to sell it, then that doesn't matter at all.

bacarl said:

Thanks again, dude, more great info Already have a small downpayment on a black GT that will arrive at my dealer this week!



What happens above 5500?

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the turbo sucks up top. Power dwindles down quickly

Does the turbo actually loose its efficiency or does the ECU physically close the throttle partially? Cashmere told me that above ~5800, the ECU only allows 60% of WOT.