3076R Install

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You're the ignorant dumbass... 18psi at say 300 CFM is different than 18psi at 500CFM. The boost pressure is just a measurement of just that. Pressure above ambient (14.7psi) is boost. Now that has nothing to do with how much air is going into the engine. My T3 at 16psi flows as much air as the GT25 at 19psi. That's why you go with a bigger turbo in the first place. MORE AIR!!!!!!!!!!

Ignorant dumbass...

HAHA i try to refrain from calling people ignorant..or even dumbasses. but you good sir are an ignorant dumbass.(chair)

18psi is NOT 18psi? LOLOLOL (gtfo)
just because the turbo is capable of flowing more air (cfm's), and therefore capable of reaching higher levels of boost DOES NOT mean that the boost levels (psi) will be different on either turbo if they were set at the same boost.

when the car reaches 18psi the wastegate will then divert the air flow away from the turbine, therefore regulating the intake manifolds pressure at 18psi. hmm..surprised you didn't know that (hump)
 
You're the ignorant dumbass... 18psi at say 300 CFM is different than 18psi at 500CFM. The boost pressure is just a measurement of just that. Pressure above ambient (14.7psi) is boost. Now that has nothing to do with how much air is going into the engine. My T3 at 16psi flows as much air as the GT25 at 19psi. That's why you go with a bigger turbo in the first place. MORE AIR!!!!!!!!!!

Ignorant dumbass...

Max, You are wrong here, sorry to say.

18 Psi is 18 Psi as long as the temp stays the same.

No matter if the cylinder is filled with a leaf blower or a GT-70, if they are both to 5 Psi, the same volume of air will exist in that space. To get more air, you have to increase the pressure or increase the space. The space is finite (Cylinder). Just because one pump can move more air, does not change that the pressure and volume are tied constant.

Your the one sadly with the misconception... Have you been hanging out at the Honda boards??

(lol)

No H8TE, I like you man, just wanted to stop this before it gets out of hand.
 
I find this discussion very amusing and apropos. The fact there is so much disagreement about what could have went wrong and what constitutes a proper install is a great example of why Mazda needs to take a hard-ass stand on warranty work and modifications untested by the factory. While some of you know what your doing, there is a contingency of people who are clueless. These are the people Mazda (and other manufacturers) need to protect themselves from.
 
18 Psi is 18 Psi as long as the temp stays the same.

No matter if the cylinder is filled with a leaf blower or a GT-70, if they are both to 5 Psi, the same volume of air will exist in that space. To get more air, you have to increase the pressure or increase the space. The space is finite (Cylinder). Just because one pump can move more air, does not change that the pressure and volume are tied constant.


Can you please elaborate further on this. Although what you are saying makes sense, it doesn't hold true in application (at least as I understand it). What Max said is correct, 7psi on a GT30 will flow more air than 7psi on T25.

Forced induction does exactly what you said, "increase the pressure" within the cylinders. Although you cannot change the volume of the cylinders, you can change amount of air being forced into that cylinder. Back to the example (and without looking up the actual flow charts of the 2 turbos) lets say a t25 flows 225 CFM @ 7psi, and the gt30 flows 300CFM @ 7psi. The larger turbo is able to "force" (or pressurize) more air into the cylinder, at the same psi (but possible at times - RPM - due to turbine size/wheel )

Maybe I am missing something somewhere. I am not trying to argue, just want to expand my knowledge, and correct my way of thinking if I am incorrect. If you have Corky Bell's book, Maximum Boost maybe you could point me something I need to re-read :)
 
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I find this discussion very amusing and apropos. The fact there is so much disagreement about what could have went wrong and what constitutes a proper install is a great example of why Mazda needs to take a hard-ass stand on warranty work and modifications untested by the factory. While some of you know what your doing, there is a contingency of people who are clueless. These are the people Mazda (and other manufacturers) need to protect themselves from.

wtf are you talking about. nobody said anything about warranty. All I said was how mazda parts suck. and alot of engine builders on this site will agree with me that the "forged" internals put in the MS6 are nothing better then what internals theyve seen in most mazda cars that are non turbo.

There is nothing to argue about here. The install was done perfectly. As for manufacturers, if ATP decided to tell me that i had an 18psi wastegate and its really a 23+ psi wastegate then thats on them. But no one will admit it. Im s*** out of luck and will be looking to buy a stronger motor and an EMS. Yea i like my MS6 but ill say right now it has very little potential. No fuel system is available to let it support much over 300awhp. So ill be coming close to $8000 when all said and done- turbo kit, motor, supporting mods. This is rediculous being that my stock mustang gt 260rwhp made 405rwhp with the same amount of money spent. And this goes for evo's and sti's also. Exhaust, intake, tune, fuel pump and there eclipsing the 300 mark. I dont care what you say about this car not comparing to those. Now this thread was not made to be an argument, but there is more proof that the atp turbo kits work perfectly on the ms6 then the proof that it does not., its hit or miss with this car. you either lucked out and got bad parts that hold up or your like me and you get the bad parts that dont hold up. end of story
 
Sorry Brian, you're a great guy but I beg to differ here. I think Yashart is recalling the same info that I am.

Put it like this:

Will you make more power with a GT25 or a GT28? The GT28. Why? Because at the same boost, it will flow more air than the GT25's compressor. Lemme see what I can dig up, but it's the truth.
 
Found an interesting site. It compares a TD05H-16G small frame compressor, to a TD05H-20G big compressor.

As you can see, at the same pressure ratio (each turbo is shown at about 20psi here...) the 20G flows 640cfm and the 16G flows only 520cfm.

Anyways, read this site: http://www.ztechz.net/id6.html it has some good info.

td05h-16gsmall-cfm.gif


td06h-20g-cfm.gif
 
No, It makes more power because the turbo delivers it more efficiently.

Physics class..

1 Mole of Air at STP.

You have a 0.5L Space At 15 PSI an Zero Degrees, It will have a "X" number of Oxygen Atoms. This is a constant unless the pressure is increased seeing how we can't modify the size of the container.

15 PSI will yield the same volume no matter what the compressor is.

If the temp of the intake charge and thus the density remains the same, you can not increase the number of molecules unless you increase the pressure.

In practice, people "Think" that the larger turbo "Flows" more CFM. This is only visible on a bench test. When attached to an air pump (Motor) the turbo will flow what the engine will allow, More or Less Volume can not happen unless pressure is changed.

That's like saying that two turbos will make diferent ammounts of HP on the same engine at the same pressure if one has more intake speed. It does not matter how fast the air rushes into the cylinder, just that it does and in this case, under pressure.

The engine dictates and limits Volume based on RPM.

Your vague Larger turbo / more volume of air is a myth. The actual physics don't allow for such a simple model, and that is a generalization. It is more efficient and makes for a colder and denser end product, but that is because of a better heat for the same boost.
 
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Found an interesting site. It compares a TD05H-16G small frame compressor, to a TD05H-20G big compressor.

As you can see, at the same pressure ratio (each turbo is shown at about 20psi here...) the 20G flows 640cfm and the 16G flows only 520cfm.

Anyways, read this site: http://www.ztechz.net/id6.html it has some good info.

That's a Turbo on a Bench Test.

Attach it to a motor and the motor will only allow a constant volume based on speed and intake pressure.

A Engine at 3000 Rpm and 5 Psi will flow the exact same volume no matter if it's a GT-20 or GT-70. 15 Psi will fill 1 Bar into that cylinder. That 1 Bar equates to a constant volume, no matter what you say, this is physics.

You are confusing a pressure map with an actual application of the turbo on a motor.
 
Yes, but how does this make you throw a rod? I'm just saying this guy throwing a rod has absolutely nothing to do with him not having a tune.

Are you stupid?

A bad tune has every reason why a motor fails.

Detonation/pre-ignition, too rich, too much timing, too little timing...

there must be good engine CONTROL for things to last.

A poor tune will ALWAYS result in a bad way, sometimes it just takes a while.

Mazda designed the parts with thousands more hours experience than you and your wrench and maybe 3D graphics computer ever have. It was designed for the stock turbo, not some monkey ass huge turbo.
 
The larger turbo is able to "force" (or pressurize) more air into the cylinder, at the same psi (but possible at times - RPM - due to turbine size/wheel )

But by your own definition, it is impossible for the larger volume of air to occupy the same volume of space without the pressure being raised... (Same Boost)

Thus the same volume of air will be in that cylinder purely based off of Pressure because the size of the container (Cylinder) can not change.

I am not disputing that the larger turbo makes more power, just the way you are wording it makes it seem like it's just because more CFM's are entering the cylinder. I'm saying that if you cant put more cfm's (Volume) into a closed space like a cylinder without the Pressure (Boost) being increased.

If the Size and Pressure of the container do not change, the same volume of a gas will be in both the containers (If the Temp Is The Same).
 
alright i'll chime in.

psi = pressure.

you can condense any sort of air at a certain pressure (lets say 16psi on a k04-22 turbo, the factory ms3/ms6/cx7 turbo) and go seal it in small zip lock bag

a gt42r turbo at 16psi will be flowing a ton more air at 16psi, so its going to need alot of huge zip lock bags....

hah - but in all seriousness, whoever has the globe avatar is wrong.

to the owner of the snapped rod ms6

were you running the ETS TMIC when you went crusing around? all of your pictures say no. perhaps all the air wasn't getting adequately cooled therefore detonation occured? just a possibility, unless you were running your 3.5" ETS TMIC upgrade.
 
k04-22 turbo, the factory ms3/ms6/cx7 turbo) and go seal it in small zip lock bag

a gt42r turbo at 16psi will be flowing a ton more air at 16psi, so its going to need alot of huge zip lock bags....
Actually, you almost just proved his point. Using your example, he is saying that the zip lock bag,also known as the cylinder, can not get bigger. So there can not be more air in the zip lock bag without raising the PSI.
 
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alright i'll chime in.

psi = pressure.

you can condense any sort of air at a certain pressure (lets say 16psi on a k04-22 turbo, the factory ms3/ms6/cx7 turbo) and go seal it in small zip lock bag

a gt42r turbo at 16psi will be flowing a ton more air at 16psi, so its going to need alot of huge zip lock bags....

hah - but in all seriousness, whoever has the globe avatar is wrong.

to the owner of the snapped rod ms6

were you running the ETS TMIC when you went crusing around? all of your pictures say no. perhaps all the air wasn't getting adequately cooled therefore detonation occured? just a possibility, unless you were running your 3.5" ETS TMIC upgrade.

the intercooler has nothing to do with it since its another proven fact that an ms6 owner on this board ran his ms6 with a 3076r stock intercooler on the track plenty of times and daily drives it. The car was driven twice after the install both times under 15 minutes.

Also the guy who said rich a/f could cause a rod to snap please leave. your ignorance is not welcome here. Rich AFR's will save a motor, you are thinking of lean afrs

18psi from a small turbo is the same as 18psi from a big turbo. It is pressure per square inch and no matter how much you argue about it pressure per square inch (psi) is the measurment factor that gives you the #. It is efficiency of the turbo that makes more power.

The stock internals were made bare minimum for the k04. Pushing a few more psi on the k04 will surely blow the motor as well. THE INTERNALS ARE SH*T! I know its hard to give in to that fact when you think your car is the s***.
 
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alright i'll chime in.

psi = pressure.

you can condense any sort of air at a certain pressure (lets say 16psi on a k04-22 turbo, the factory ms3/ms6/cx7 turbo) and go seal it in small zip lock bag

a gt42r turbo at 16psi will be flowing a ton more air at 16psi, so its going to need alot of huge zip lock bags....

hah - but in all seriousness, whoever has the globe avatar is wrong.

I'm glad you chimed in. Because you failed to disprove me.

Every time a piston goes through a cycle and picks up air from the intake manifold, there is a constant space (Cylinder), it does not expand so for the love of god Mr. Wizard Explain for me how I can push more Volume of air into that closed space without increasing the PRESSURE. You guys never took Physics? Too busy smoking up...

Standard Temperature and Pressure, The MOLE Theory is the accepted standard that all chemical reactions are calculated. (Periodic Table)

It is a constant that will tell the user how many atoms of a particular element or molecule will be present at a Standard Temperature and Pressure.

ATOMS PER VOLUME AT CONSTANT TEMPERATURE AND PRESSURE.

If you don't increase the Volume Of The Container and the temperature stays the same, You Cant increase the volume of the air in the cylinder without pressurizing it more (Increasing Boost)

I want Your Magic Engine. (RTM)
 
Learn how to be nice to each other or I close this. No name calling...we are here to share info...not egos.
 
Are you stupid?

A bad tune has every reason why a motor fails.

Detonation/pre-ignition, too rich, too much timing, too little timing...

there must be good engine CONTROL for things to last.

A poor tune will ALWAYS result in a bad way, sometimes it just takes a while.

Mazda designed the parts with thousands more hours experience than you and your wrench and maybe 3D graphics computer ever have. It was designed for the stock turbo, not some monkey ass huge turbo.

Are you stupid? WTF dude, internet tough guy.

Again, I still haven't had anyone answer my question, which is:

What are you going to do to the tune on the MS6 to remove the probability of it throwing a rod......this is over the stock tune.

So how much tuning have you done to your Speed6? Or are you just another dude talkign out the side of his ass with no experience on this car?

And I guess we should have said this about any other car that's been modded to go faster than it came from the factory:
Mazda designed the parts with thousands more hours experience than you and your wrench and maybe 3D graphics computer ever have. It was designed for the stock turbo, not some monkey ass huge turbo.

If you're afraid to mod your car, then STFU, sell it, or leave it stock and stay out of message forums where enthusiasts are interested in modding, it's that simple.
 
Brian, your right.

PV = nRT is the ideal gas LAW (as in nothing can change it, it is LAW, just like gravity)

Pressure x Volume = n (moles of gas) x R (constant) x Temperature

If pressure and volume are the same, then moles of gas are going to be the exact same at the same temperature. A KO4 shooting 10 psi of air into an engine at 150 degrees F is going to have the same exact amount of air as a GT35 shooting 10 psi of air into an engine at 150 degrees F.

The only reason why bigger turbos can flow more air is because of their efficiency. They do not begin to start blowing "hotter" air until they are out of their peak efficiency range, which is what the CFM maps are for. The only reason why bigger turbos make more power than smaller turbos at the same boost is because of the TEMPERATURE of the air.


Haha, forrest, we are trying...
 
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