Question about running the GT3076r on my MS6

C

chriscecc914

Member
:
06 MS6
Im interested in putting a GT3076r on my stock block MS6. I want to run 22-25lbs of boost on 93 octane. Ill be buying an intercooler upgrade, and the cpe EMS when it is released. Im also going to look into an upgraded fuel pump. With a good tune do you think this will be safe? With a full turboback exhaust ill be aiming for somewhere betwenn 400-500awhp. I know adding a nice set of forged pistons will give me some security, but ive seen non-forged internal cars push the same amount of horsepower with a good tune and have no problems. let me know what you guys/gals think. Thanks


Chris
 
The Speed6 has some forged stock parts. If you can get the tuning right I would think you can make those numbers.
 
It also has an aluminum block, take that for what you will.

Also until someone mazes out the stock fuel system no one knows how much power that will support.
 
i know the rods and crank are forged, Im sure mazda wouldnt put that weak of pistons in it. Ive seen a honda with a stock shortblock make 470whp and its running. Ive seen evo's and sti's make those #'s and there still running really good too. I think reading this board only 1 member has blown his shortblock into pieces and that was because of overboost and no tune to make up for it. I really think these blocks can hit the 500whp mark before we see problems...and i mean with a good tune and under 30psi

i also know of cars making 700+hp w/ aluminum blocks
 
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Check out what happened to 4DRHTRD with a GT3071r in his MS6.

R
 
Think you'll be fine with the gt3076 as long as your smart with the boost.. I'd also ask ATP to ship it with a 10psi waistgate actuator instead of the 15 psi one they send standard...you can always bump the 10 psi up with the boost controller built into the CPE tuner, but it seems like the 15psi actuator may be a little stiff, and likes to spike....

Even with that turbo I think you'll be closer to 400whp than 500 whp, but it should have good midrange power and not be too peaky..

Rainman said:
Check out what happened to 4DRHTRD with a GT3071r in his MS6.

R
Click to expand...

His motor blew because of a very lean mixture and a spike to 30+ psi, it says nothing about the strength or weakness of the motor--even a built motor would blow at 13~14 to 1 afr at 30 psi....
 
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ssinstaller said:
Think you'll be fine with the gt3076 as long as your smart with the boost.. I'd also ask ATP to ship it with a 10psi waistgate actuator instead of the 15 psi one they send standard...you can always bump the 10 psi up with the boost controller built into the CPE tuner, but it seems like the 15psi actuator may be a little stiff, and likes to spike....

Even with that turbo I think you'll be closer to 400whp than 500 whp, but it should have good midrange power and not be too peaky..
Click to expand...


True enough. I didn't mean to imply that his misfortune was simply a result of the new turbo. There were a lot of other factors at play. I simply wanted to show that some people have experienced problems upgrading the turbo without adequate preparation, tuning, or safety measures.

R
 
tune it at 22psi, motor should handle it no problem. i'd probably hover 11.8:1 a/f r to be safely rich...

i'd like to see it done. that'd be awesome.
 
ssinstaller said:
Think you'll be fine with the gt3076 as long as your smart with the boost.. I'd also ask ATP to ship it with a 10psi waistgate actuator instead of the 15 psi one they send standard...you can always bump the 10 psi up with the boost controller built into the CPE tuner, but it seems like the 15psi actuator may be a little stiff, and likes to spike....

Even with that turbo I think you'll be closer to 400whp than 500 whp, but it should have good midrange power and not be too peaky..



His motor blew because of a very lean mixture and a spike to 30+ psi, it says nothing about the strength or weakness of the motor--even a built motor would blow at 13~14 to 1 afr at 30 psi....
Click to expand...

I think it would be wiser to let him get the motor apart and see what happened before saying he blew because of the lean mixture. I have seen it and it is possible something else happened.....give the man a chance to finger it out.
 
RevLimitLaunch said:
tune it at 22psi, motor should handle it no problem. i'd probably hover 11.8:1 a/f r to be safely rich...

i'd like to see it done. that'd be awesome.
Click to expand...

I would probably go for 11.0-11.5 AFR to be extremely safe
 
Two things I just wanted to jump in here and mention...

I recently spoke to an engineer that assisted in the development of a pre-production "hot rod" MS6 for Mazda (no VIN number and a nearly unlimited budget). He said in his experience, the stock engine is good for about 350 crank horsepower. This car does have forged rods, but forged is not synonymous with unbreakable. If you've seen the rods in this engine, they're relatively minscule and their size leads me to believe that the engineer I spoke with was right. I think if you're going to upgrade the turbo, then you should seriously consider upgrading the rods and pistons. The crankshaft is easily the strongest part of the shortblock and you can leave it alone.

He also said that the fuel injectors are not the weak link in this engine. We took some data logs of the injector duty cycles a while back and we recorded ~20-25% DC. This is of course extremely low, which is good, so we thought we were in the clear as far as the fuel system goes. The problem is that because of the nature of this engine, you need very high fuel pressure (~1500psi) to inject the fuel into the cylinders. So what happens is that as the injector pulse-width increases, the high pressure fuel pump can't maintain the pressure AND flow required. The high pressure pump is just a three-lobe hydromechanical cam, so when the pressure starts dying off, so does fuel flow even if the pulse-width keeps increasing. The engineer I spoke to said in order to make serious power with this engine, you *NEED* secondary port fuel injectors. He said in his case, he added four fuel injectors to the intake manifold to supplement the DI fuel system!

So if you are considering 400-500hp power levels, I strongly suggest that you consider a better bottom end, and some sort of secondary injector controller. Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but I'm just trying to share inside information with you guys so you can make informed decisions about your upgrade path.


Jordan
 
So will you be adding the xtra injector control to your unit? I used xtra injectors on my turbo'd MP3 and they worked great. xtra injector control + throttle controll will be perfect. I can see how the throttle flutters on my boost gauge. When I'm up in the boost, it flutters like crazy. I put it on my air compressor and it's rock solid, so it's got to be the throttle making it flutter. Also, I tired the gauge on an EBC's solenoid...when the solenoid was off, the gauge didn't flutter, but when the solenoid came on it flutter'd like it does on the car. I will be patiently waiting for the next revision.

As for the motor only good to 350, it's all about the tune and how aggressive you go. My MP3 had aggressive timing from the start, so I tuned the timing to a safe level and used a J&S safegaurd to keep knock away. I don't own the car anymore, but the person who bought it is still running a stock motor, which makes it over 4 years boosted on a motor built to handle 140chp (The longest lasting boosted MP3 on a stock motor BTW). I'm sure it can handle more if you're smart about it, but that great info to have and thanks for letting everyone know.
 
Bigg Tim said:
So will you be adding the xtra injector control to your unit? I used xtra injectors on my turbo'd MP3 and they worked great. xtra injector control + throttle controll will be perfect. I can see how the throttle flutters on my boost gauge. When I'm up in the boost, it flutters like crazy. I put it on my air compressor and it's rock solid, so it's got to be the throttle making it flutter. Also, I tired the gauge on an EBC's solenoid...when the solenoid was off, the gauge didn't flutter, but when the solenoid came on it flutter'd like it does on the car. I will be patiently waiting for the next revision.

As for the motor only good to 350, it's all about the tune and how aggressive you go. My MP3 had aggressive timing from the start, so I tuned the timing to a safe level and used a J&S safegaurd to keep knock away. I don't own the car anymore, but the person who bought it is still running a stock motor, which makes it over 4 years boosted on a motor built to handle 140chp (The longest lasting boosted MP3 on a stock motor BTW). I'm sure it can handle more if you're smart about it, but that great info to have and thanks for letting everyone know.
Click to expand...



My pleasure (bow)

This generation board will not incorporate any throttle or secondary injector control. Development on this board started years ago (believe it or not!) so we didn't have much of the information we do now, like, the throttle closing, the fuel pump being a weakness, or even what we've learned about the fuel cut issues. We have high expectations for our next piggyback, and if the information I got was correct about the fuel pump, then controlling extra injectors really shouldn't be a difficult addition.

And I wholeheartedly agree with your statements about how important a proper tune is. (yes)


Jordan
 
it just boggles my mind that a 274hp 280tq 2.3 MZR Motor with forged rods and crank can only handle 350 Crank HP max when i've seen stock internal Honda's that aren't built for boost make 470 Crank HP and not explode over 4 years of daily driving. No disrespect to anyone on this site but im seiously considering traiding this car in for something that can handle over 400whp in stock form (aka evo or sti)

BTW 350 Crank is around 300awhp, a # you can surpass with a turboback exhaust, CAI, FMIC, maybe 3 psi more on the stock turbo....your saying that the stock motor cant handle this??! If so this car is weak!
 
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Don't be so shortsighted and melodramatic. That was one(apparently very conservative) Mazda engineer discussing his take on things with one tuner. By comparison, how many Honda engineers said to an aftermarket tuner that their non forged bottom end was good for 470hp? Exactly. None. But since one supposedly said it somewhere, go sell your car and run into the light, screaming. Keyboard/internet tuning at it's finest........
 
tuckaloe said:
Don't be so shortsighted and melodramatic. That was one(apparently very conservative) Mazda engineer discussing his take on things with one tuner. By comparison, how many Honda engineers said to an aftermarket tuner that their non forged bottom end was good for 470hp? Exactly. None. But since one supposedly said it somewhere, go sell your car and run into the light, screaming. Keyboard/internet tuning at it's finest........
Click to expand...

ok it was a little melodramatic... im just saying that if what this guy says is true, i dont want to have to deal with engine building nightmares when I have a goal of around 450awhp
 
350hp in this car for me, will be fine and dandy. It's a daily driver, not a race/drag car. I realize that a bunch of the members on this board are all into maxed out performance but sheesh. 350hp, that's close to 90 or 110 more HP (estimating here) than I have now w/CAI and CP-E's complete exhaust as my only performance upgrades so far.
For me 350 HP will be more than enough...............

Now JORDAN, just get me there bud, you guys keep working on it, I still have money to spend on my BABY.(band)
 
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