Twiggy Sticks Install, tuning and results thread
- Thread starter LordWorm
- Start date
yashart_mp3
Member
- :
- Black Mica MS3
I'd also suggest new cam seals. You'll need some gray RTV gasket maker as well
Crazee D said:
feeler gauges - i'm pretty sure theres a detailed how to somewhere on the website, have a look at andrew's original cams thread thingy...
I reused my valve cover gasket as it was in good shape...no leaks yet so must be ok!
Adjusting the idle....will depend on what management you are running
if you are running the stock ECU, just wind out the idle adjustment screw all the way, then half a turn back in so it doesn't fall out. ECU won't "learn around" it unless your RPM goes over the standard idle speed - if you adjust it higher than the standard idle speed setting it SHOULD bring it back into line with the idle control solenoid over time.
If you are running a microtech or simillar, heres what I did to get the idle working:
Confirm that your ECU is capable of controlling the solenoid, then wire up accordingly.
get someone to sit in the drivers seat for you and get them to turn the car over... it will likely stall....
Wind out the idle adjust screw as detailed above and try again - you might get lucky and land yourself with a really low ratshit idle...but don't be alarmed if it just stalls.
get out your trusty hex bolt keys and adjust the throttle body plate open
give it a full turn, then kick the car over...it should idle, albeit very high.
While car is running, dial the hex bolt back until you have an idle sitting around 800 rpm.
Leave car running, hop in the car and plug in your laptop. Recalibrate the Throttle Position Sensor to 0% (it'll be sitting at something like 2%, because you've opened it that much to get the idle, yo u want to tell your aftermarket management that it is actually the new 0%)
Use the software for your ECU to program the idle control valve to step the idle up to about 900.
In the microtech (can't remember the setting NAMES precisely), but i have the Target RPM set at 900, the minimum opening time at 1ms, maximum opening time at 2ms, cold start adjustment set at 0.4ms (adds more idle control if water temp is below 50C), and the input idle air on the AC compressor set at 0.2ms (adds more idle control if the AC is on).
its not PERFECT - the microtech doesn't like holding such low idle speeds, i don't think the control loop is that sophisticated. I am ATTEMPTING to find a stand alone solution that will accept a tacho signal in and use a more sophisticated control loop (something with an element of fuzzy logic to predict a fall in idle speed earlier) and more inputs so i can get all the accessories "idling up" the motor.
If i cant find something, i'll have a crack at building something.
So Gray RTV & V/C gasket.
Do I need two Cam Oil seals AND a crank oil seal?
FSD7-10-235 V/C GASKET $24.38<SCRIPT><!--D(["mb","
\n\nFS01-12-711 TENS\nSPRING* ****$2.94
\n\nFS05-10-602A CAM OIL SEAL ***$6.19 each (2x) $12.38
\n\nFS02-10-602 CRANK OIL\nSEAL $6.19
\n\nShipping by UPS ground to\nIowa $7.00
\n\nTotal $89.38
\n\n*
\n\nYou can order those by\nreplying to this email. I will need a shipping address, a daytime phone number,\nand credit card info. You can call me toll free at (877)967-6884 with the\ncredit card info, but please put the shipping address in an email reply.
\n\n*
\n\nThanks, Richard Arndt in\nParts at Mazdastuff.com
\n\n<div>\n\n\n\n<hr size\u003d\"2\" width\u003d\"100%\" align\u003d\"center\">\n\n
\n\n<b>",1]);//--></SCRIPT> </SPAN>
FS05-10-602A CAM OIL SEAL $6.19 each (2x) $12.38
FS02-10-602 CRANK OIL SEAL $6.19
Do I need two Cam Oil seals AND a crank oil seal?
FSD7-10-235 V/C GASKET $24.38<SCRIPT><!--D(["mb","
\n\nFS01-12-711 TENS\nSPRING* ****$2.94
\n\nFS05-10-602A CAM OIL SEAL ***$6.19 each (2x) $12.38
\n\nFS02-10-602 CRANK OIL\nSEAL $6.19
\n\nShipping by UPS ground to\nIowa $7.00
\n\nTotal $89.38
\n\n*
\n\nYou can order those by\nreplying to this email. I will need a shipping address, a daytime phone number,\nand credit card info. You can call me toll free at (877)967-6884 with the\ncredit card info, but please put the shipping address in an email reply.
\n\n*
\n\nThanks, Richard Arndt in\nParts at Mazdastuff.com
\n\n<div>\n\n\n\n<hr size\u003d\"2\" width\u003d\"100%\" align\u003d\"center\">\n\n
\n\n<b>",1]);//--></SCRIPT> </SPAN>
FS05-10-602A CAM OIL SEAL $6.19 each (2x) $12.38
FS02-10-602 CRANK OIL SEAL $6.19
jimmysuite
Member
- :
- 2003 Mazda Protege5
can we get a list of things that need/should be replaced when doing this install? My cars got almost 80k so i was planning on doing the timing belt and tensioner like the kit protegegarage sells and the valve cover gasket for sure. is there any thing else that would be worth it while I have the valve cover off??
yashart_mp3
Member
- :
- Black Mica MS3
Info/ area of concern/ whatever you want to call it for the newbs.
Here is a quick break-down:
Stock Lash
Intake - 0.009" to 0.012"
Exhaust - 0.009" to 0.012"
Twiggy Cams Lash
Intake - 0.010 and 0.014
Exhaust - 0.020 and 0.024
I have a hard time believing that anyones lash was within spec for the exhaust cam. I can see the intake valve clearance on the intake side being OK since it is relatively close to stock lash.
And for those of who are not aware, this is no way (per say) to adjust valve clearance. In order to "adjust" the lash, you must purchase new shims. BUT, you need to replace the shims with the correct size shims. There are 12 available through Mazda, and cost about $8 each.
Because I have a ported head (5 angle valve job) that I will be installing with the cams, I can easily check the clearance, measure, and order the correct shim sizes. I would suggest that you guys that haven't installed them, either
A) purchase all possible shim sizes/combinations (16 valves x 12 possible sizes x $8 each = $1536)
B) take it to shop (who has various shims in stock)
C) Install them, measure the clearance, and then uninstall them until you get the shims you need.
These cams are by no means "drop in" and go. They are not hard to install by any means. But you do want to make sure your valves are clearances are within spec. This could be the reason why some of you guys are throwing a CEL; "multiple misfire code"
Here is a quick break-down:
Stock Lash
Intake - 0.009" to 0.012"
Exhaust - 0.009" to 0.012"
Twiggy Cams Lash
Intake - 0.010 and 0.014
Exhaust - 0.020 and 0.024
I have a hard time believing that anyones lash was within spec for the exhaust cam. I can see the intake valve clearance on the intake side being OK since it is relatively close to stock lash.
And for those of who are not aware, this is no way (per say) to adjust valve clearance. In order to "adjust" the lash, you must purchase new shims. BUT, you need to replace the shims with the correct size shims. There are 12 available through Mazda, and cost about $8 each.
Because I have a ported head (5 angle valve job
) that I will be installing with the cams, I can easily check the clearance, measure, and order the correct shim sizes. I would suggest that you guys that haven't installed them, either A) purchase all possible shim sizes/combinations (16 valves x 12 possible sizes x $8 each = $1536)
B) take it to shop (who has various shims in stock)
C) Install them, measure the clearance, and then uninstall them until you get the shims you need.
These cams are by no means "drop in" and go. They are not hard to install by any means. But you do want to make sure your valves are clearances are within spec. This could be the reason why some of you guys are throwing a CEL; "multiple misfire code"
twilightprotege said:
yashart_mp3
Member
- :
- Black Mica MS3
Go back and read my post. I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with the cams....
I know that they were designed to be like this. I was simply saying that I have a hard time believing that anybody's exhaust lash was within spec for the new cams. I was giving people a heads up that you cannot simply drop these in and call it a day. Several people have posted asking how you adjust the lash. I was giving some simple insight into what needs to be done to install these correctly.
I know that they were designed to be like this. I was simply saying that I have a hard time believing that anybody's exhaust lash was within spec for the new cams. I was giving people a heads up that you cannot simply drop these in and call it a day. Several people have posted asking how you adjust the lash. I was giving some simple insight into what needs to be done to install these correctly.
found a blurb on lash
Another area of concern is using valve lash as a tuning aid, something that works to a point but can also be an engine killer.
“Valve lash can be a useful tuning tool but you need to know the range of lash you can use without running into problems” cautions Enders, who has seen many well-intentioned strategies harm race engines over the years. “Normally, if you loosen the lash .004”, you’ll change the duration of the cam at the valve timing point, before they open or close, by about 10 degrees. That’s enough to see a change, though it’s not necessarily something you want to do at the track. Running loose gives you more torque but less power, while running tight means giving up torque to gain a little power. You can’t hurt much going a little tighter, though you’ll give up idle smoothness, but if you go too loose, you’ll start breaking parts.”
don't know if that helps ...i don't get all of it myself
Another area of concern is using valve lash as a tuning aid, something that works to a point but can also be an engine killer.
“Valve lash can be a useful tuning tool but you need to know the range of lash you can use without running into problems” cautions Enders, who has seen many well-intentioned strategies harm race engines over the years. “Normally, if you loosen the lash .004”, you’ll change the duration of the cam at the valve timing point, before they open or close, by about 10 degrees. That’s enough to see a change, though it’s not necessarily something you want to do at the track. Running loose gives you more torque but less power, while running tight means giving up torque to gain a little power. You can’t hurt much going a little tighter, though you’ll give up idle smoothness, but if you go too loose, you’ll start breaking parts.”
don't know if that helps ...i don't get all of it myself
The valve lash is "within spec" for these lobe profiles. I spoke with andrew today who had this debate with the manufacturer when he first told him of the new lash.yashart_mp3 said:
Due to the different ramp rates and so forth, the new lash is perfectly fine and acceptable, and if indeed you try to push them back to stock lash, you'll be miles out of spec (potentially damaging, but probably at worst, a car that runs like a sack full of s***).
the 0.009" lash that is standard is not dictated by the head design, its dictated by the standard cam design and ramp rate...lash is a function of the design of the cams and shouldn't be compared to what "correct" lash would be for a different set of profiles.
I've had mine in longer than anyone (with the exception of that guy who got his fixed the day after the fault was found) and have driven the car harder than i have ever driven it since getting them in, with no ill effect. Car makes a heap more noticable power, so its not hurting anything in that department either.
It is true that SOME People may need to move their shims around to get everything within the new specs, and theres probably a 1 in a million chance that SOMEONE will have to get at least some replacement shims, due to machining tollerences, freak occurances with their engine, and so on...but for the vast majority of is, these are drop in, drive away cams.
edit: if what you are saying (i could be confused) is that you can't stretch the lash out to the degree it needs to be pushed to get to the new lash specs - i believe the base circle was slightly reduced to achieve this....by all means you should CHECK The clearance to insure they are within spec....and move a few shims around if they are not (in all likelyhood you have all the parts you'll ever need sitting under the valve cover already).
I'll try get andrew to post something up - though he seems to be on an internet strike.
Apologies if i've got teh wrong end of the stick - i read what you were saying as "Theres no way the new lash spec can be right"
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