Matching wheels and tires to driving style (summer tires)

Adam02es

Member
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Thinking about another Mazda...
Hi everyone,

After 4 years with my '02 ES sedan, I am dreaming up things I can do to it to mix things up, without turning it into something from the fast and the furious. Tires and possibly new wheels are at the top of the list of ideas. I've done my homework, now it's time to start posting the questions.

I have several questions, but since they are all related I thought I would consolidate them into one long post.

1) How much of a difference would a wider summer tire make compared to a "high-performance all-season" for regular street driving? I consider my driving style fairly spirited, but I have no plans for any autocross. The tire I have in mind is the Goodyear Eagle F1 in 215/40/17. These tires aren't cheap, so my concern is it will be money down the drain if all I use them for is regular commuting. After all, you can only take corners so fast on public roads without endangering people.

These tires also come in 205/50/16, which I undestand will fit on the stock rim and save me the cost of new wheels. How much of a difference does 10mm in width make?

2) The 215/40/17 tires raise the question about bang for the buck with wheels. After reading several threads and articles on how much slower unsprung weight can make a car, I would like to keep the weight down on a potential new set of wheels. The wheels I had in mind where the Enkei RFP1s, 7" by 7.5" with a 48mm offset. They way only 15.2 lbs. Same type of question with #1: is this overkill for everyday driving needs?

3) How much will ride quality suffer? Upsizing wheels and tires raises the issue of reduced ride quality. I realize ride quality is subjective, so this may be difficult to answer. To give everyone an idea of where I stand on this, I find the ride in the '02 ES perfectly comfortable (according to various publications, I think the proteges are considered stiff for their class). My 85 Jeep Cherokee was uncomfortable.

4) In addition to ride quality, upsizing increases the risk of damage to the expensive new wheels and tires. How much additional risk is there going from 195/50/16 to 215/40/17? Consumer Reports has an article on upsizing, where ride quality plummeted, risk of damaged increased, and performance gains where minimal. This has me concerned. I am particularly interested in hearing from people in the Boston area on this one.

This post is becoming even longer than I thought it would, so I guess I will save the winter tire questions for another thread...
 
Speaking of the Enkei wheels, they will show more of my rusted hubs and rotors than the stock wheels. I know there is a TSB instructing the dealer to sand off the rust and repaint with rust-resistant paint; however, my car is out of warranty. Has anyone paid the dealer to have this done? How much $$$?

It isn't something I want to try myself since I don't have a floor jack or jack stands, and I have no experience working with brakes.
 
1 - The F1's are nice, but overkill for your use. Try the Goodyear GSD3, and excellent wet/dry tire for summer and a decent value. Another good tire and highly regarded here is the Yoko ES100. And you're right, for daily driving no need to have the expensive sticky rubber.

2 - As for wheels, unless you pay more for light weight, moving up to 17 or 18" wheels does lower your performance (the unsprung weight), but for daily driving you probably won't notice to much. Some prefer the better looks, and you aren't worried about autox times. just don't go to light on the wheels, as you'll also decrease your sidewall and thus have more problems with pothole damage. Depends on your local road quality.

3 - Bigger wheels means lower sidewall height, and less cushioning from the tires themselves. If you keep stock springs and dampers it probably won't bother you much.

4 - As I mentioned, bigger does increase the risk. Depends on local road quality. Some people here run 18's with no problems. Personnaly, I stick with my stock LX size 15" for lighter weight and less damage in the spring.
 
I went from low profile 17" yokohama avs es 100 tires to cheapo falken 512s on 16" wheels. The car has lost its "on rails" feel during hard cornering due to sidewall flex and has lower cornering limits, but is quieter and smoother not to mention the tires are half the cost and last more than twice as long.
 
A few things:

1. A summer tire will make a big difference in the feel of the car. The maximum grip will be higher, of course, but so will stability, turn-in speed/steering response, braking grip and stability, tire noise and road noise. I went with high-performance all seasons and am dissapointed. I can;t wait to get summer tire on my car when these are worn out.

2. Getting a lightweight wheel is important. 15 to 19 pounds will all feel the same to you when driving and accellerating. Get something that looks good and fits into the above weight range. Tires will have a big effect on the weight. If you are between two sizes go smaller and you'll save some weight while giving up only .02 G's of max grip.

3. Your ride will change dramatically. The car will not only corner with much greater confidence at speed, but it will feel that way all the time; stable, connected to the road. Steering response will be quicker aiding turn in. Road noise will increase, especially during hard breaking. The increase will be highly variable based on the specific tire and tread pattern. More money will generally get you a quieter tire.

4. Damage is a consern but not a huge consern so long as you keep your tire inflated. I think you get 17" becuase you want to look like you modified your car. It sounds like to me you are looking for greater performance, not necessarily looks. In your case I would stick to 16's or get a set iif you are on 15's now. Stock P5 wheel would probably be a big enough change but keep you out of bend-rim trouble.
 
i've got the gsd3s on my wrx and i like them a lot. they're still probably overkill for me considering i drive like a grandma, but every now and then i'll take a turn to remind myself how crappy the stock tires were.
 
Thanks for the replies everyone. After giving this some thought and reading your replies, I am going to rule out buying 17" wheels. I like the look of wider tires, but not necessarily aftermarket wheels. I prefer a stock look overall (put it this way, one of my main criteria for choosing a replacement head-unit was that it had to match the interior lighting as closely as possible).

NVP5 is right, it would have been more of a performance thing, and it doesn't seem like the cost/benefit is there.

The GSD3s in 205/50/16 on stock wheels are very tempting, but right now I think I am leaning toward the Falken ZE-512s so I won't have to worry about a different set of tires in the winter.

I'm currently using Kumho ECSTA ASXs in the stock size, and they probably have a little more than half of their tread left. They have been OK, but I am sick of them and I like to plan ahead. Despite supposedly only weighing 18lbs, they have always felt heavy. It may be my imagination, but I think they are starting to get noisy too. Thanks again for the replies.
 
Adam02es said:
I'm currently using Kumho ECSTA ASXs in the stock size, and they probably have a little more than half of their tread left. They have been OK, but I am sick of them and I like to plan ahead. Despite supposedly only weighing 18lbs, they have always felt heavy. It may be my imagination, but I think they are starting to get noisy too. Thanks again for the replies.

What a coincidence! I am running Kumho ECSTA ASX's in the stock size, too. I am not happy with the performance, and while it may not be the tires fault, I still want better pefromance. I am torn as to whether I need winter tires for the, um, winter, but I might risk it next year. I live in Virginia and snow has been very light in the past few years. My only other concern would be a situation where the gorund is very cold, but dry and whether I would have traction problems. Another complicating factor is the fact that I would install the summer tires on my only set of rims. If I ended up needing alternate tires for the winter I'd have to put them on black steelies.

And the noise is not your imagination. The tires may have worn unevenly, even if only slightly so, which can greatly increase noise. Also, there is less mass and less material to isolate and absorb road noise in the tire. My tires seem to crash over expansion joints which can make a teriible racket with the windows open.
 
NVP5White said:
What a coincidence! I am running Kumho ECSTA ASX's in the stock size, too. I am not happy with the performance, and while it may not be the tires fault, I still want better pefromance. I am torn as to whether I need winter tires for the, um, winter, but I might risk it next year. I live in Virginia and snow has been very light in the past few years. My only other concern would be a situation where the gorund is very cold, but dry and whether I would have traction problems. Another complicating factor is the fact that I would install the summer tires on my only set of rims. If I ended up needing alternate tires for the winter I'd have to put them on black steelies.

And the noise is not your imagination. The tires may have worn unevenly, even if only slightly so, which can greatly increase noise. Also, there is less mass and less material to isolate and absorb road noise in the tire. My tires seem to crash over expansion joints which can make a teriible racket with the windows open.

It sounds like we have a nearly identical dilemma. When I started this thread, I started a similar thread about winter tires to try to break up my list of questions. http://www.msprotege.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123647248

The loss of traction on summer tires in cold weather has me worried almost as much as the inconsistent snowfall amounts from year to year. From what I have read, traction from summer tires becomes shady below about 50 degrees F, and they definitely shouldn't be used below 40. It's already in that range on most nights. If summer tires lose significant amounts of traction in that temperature range, that means I am stuck with steelies and winter rubber for almost half the year.

Have you had summer tires mounted in cooler months? How fast do they start to lose traction as the temperature drops?
 
No, I have not had summer tire mounted in cold (or warm) weather. Although, everyone I know who has summer tires also has a set of winter all seasons for when it gets cold. The problem for me, like yourself, is that strict adherence to the 40 degree temp limit means a full six months of 'winter' tires! This realization lead me to all-season tires in the past, but I;ve been too dissapointed with performance.

BTW, I just read in Consumer Reports that they rated the Dulop SP Sport 5000 the best performance all-season tire. Not only might i have to stick with all-season tires, but the best I can hope for is the performanc of stock Dunlops!?!? Not a good day for tires...
 
NVP5White said:
BTW, I just read in Consumer Reports that they rated the Dulop SP Sport 5000 the best performance all-season tire. Not only might i have to stick with all-season tires, but the best I can hope for is the performanc of stock Dunlops!?!? Not a good day for tires...

Intersting. Can you post a link to that article? I have a subscription, so I should be able to read it. The most recent performance all-season tire test I found on consumer reports was from November 2003, and the Falken Ziex ZE 512s won by a decent margin.

Regardless of what consumer reports says, those Dunlops are not going back on my car. Even after a year the Kumhos are far better in the rain than those things were when they were new. Snow was nothing short of terrifying with the stock tires. I liked the Dunlops a little better in dry summer weather, but I don't think I would use those tires again if they cost half of what they do.
 
I saw the review in the latest issue at my folks house. I don't subscribe and I don't have the article here, but you might be able to search their site, or simply view the latest issue online.

The results are suprising since both the Ziex ZE 512's and he SP Sport 5000's were on the market at the time of the last test. The ZE 512 did finish well (3rd, I think), so there is some consistancy in their results. I'd have to read the article to see if they changed their grading system or performance tests in any way, which migh explain the different results.
 
NVP5White said:
I'd have to read the article to see if they changed their grading system or performance tests in any way, which migh explain the different results.

I found the new comparison from the November 2006 issue, and they have changed their grading criteria. For the new comparison, treadwear is now a grading criteria. The November 2003 article provided different criteria for wet and dry performance, with rolling resistance listed under "other." The new article consolidated these wet and dry performance categories, as well as the rolling resistance category under "three-season driving."

In addition, I think H and V rated tires were commingled in the old article. They didn't specify speed ratings, only noted which tires where "sport" oriented and which were "touring" oriented.

Also, I don't think the dunlops that won the new comparison are the OE tires; rather some kind of variant. The SP Sport 5000s in the comparison are H-rated; the OE Dunlop SP Sport 5000 M tires are V-rated. The Falkens are listed under both H-rated and V-rated, while for some reason Consumer Reports didn't test the V-rated version of the Dunlops. Either that or they weren't even worth mentioning. The OE Dunlops also cost 60% more than the tires consumer reports tested, at least on Tire Rack.

Having said all that, I wouldn't touch tires even related to the OE tires. The Tire Rack survey speaks for itself.
 
Adam02es said:
Having said all that, I wouldn't touch tires even related to the OE tires. The Tire Rack survey speaks for itself.

I agree with your conclusion. Now that we have the internet, any one source of opinion is taken as a data point rather then the final word. I will lean very heavily on the review of the tire by Tire Rack, as well as the reader reviews and ranking of the tire.
 
I went the dual tire route last year, and have learned a few things.

Summer tires are G-Force Sports. Very cheap at CostCo after a rebate, but I suspect they are wearing quickly. Very sticky, they feel much different than the stock Dunlops. I'm not sure I've ever heard them squeal in a corner. If memory serves steering feel isn't as direct, but that could also be a function of the slightly taller sidewall (205/50VR16). I have not noticed a loss of grip in lower temps, and have driven the car in below 40 degrees. The best thing about the tires is they like to turn, which eliminates the car's former tendency to understeer. But it also means that they pull slightly towards the shoulder when the road is crowned, which can be annoying and cannot be good for fuel economy or tire wear, though I haven't noticed much difference in the former (getting 27 to 30 in mostly suburban driving). They started out fairly quiet, but have gotten much noisier.

The winter tires, which will go on in about a month, are Michelin Pilot Alpin 2s. They feel like all-seasons, which is good for a winter tire. I love the traction in snow. Before I bought them I was considering an AWD car because I couldn't get up my driveway with an inch of snow and also got stuck a couple of times. The Michelins pull through everything--and CR didn't even rate them especially good. Last winter I was looking forward to snow.

I'm lazy and cheap, so I used the stock rims. CostCo, where I bought both sets of tires, does the swap for $20 (so $40 per year). But the rims aren't looking so hot after three winters, the finish is starting to come off near the inside edges of some spokes. Probably a warranty replacement in my future.

I don't think I'll ever go back to a single tire, but then I live in Detroit.
 
Thanks for the input P5w3kids. That's good news about being able to safely use the summer tires in cooler months. I figured I wouldn't be able to drive as aggressively on them as I would like to, but it is good to know that there is usable traction as long as I don't do anything dumb.

Anybody know of an easy way to sell used tires (not ebay)? My current tires are only about a year old, and I cant really afford to just drop them in favor of two sets, but I would really prefer to move on to two sets of tires. Otherwise, I might be able to justify winter tires next winter and I wont be on summers until 2008:-(
 
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