fsze piston, tune or no tune?

rusty_mazda · Jun 16, 2006

i'm going to get the car tuned reguardless, but it may be a little while, so my question is with the higher compression will it hurt anything?

cheapmiata1600 · Jun 16, 2006

Aside from your fuel and ignition maps being completely off for that compression ratio (they suck anyways lol), I doubt you'll hurt anything.

Installshield 2 · Jun 17, 2006

You will need to use better gasoline (i.e. higher octane rated) in order to be free of detonation...with regular gas, it may not knock all the time...but the risk is high...regardless of the tune, the physical act of squeezing the mixture tighter will increase heat...which is the issue...

but yeah, you will not really see any gains until its tuned...and a 9.1:1 to 10.2:1 isn't a huge jump in compression...but it will be noticable after everything is tuned correctly

Boston5761 · Jun 17, 2006

So, say it was a stock FS-DE, Would the FS-ZE pistons, 89-91 octane fuel, and a ems all you would need?

TheMAN · Jun 17, 2006

you need better cams

flat_black · Jun 17, 2006

And cam gears. *nods*

rusty_mazda · Jun 19, 2006

Installshield 2 said:
You will need to use better gasoline (i.e. higher octane rated) in order to be free of detonation...with regular gas, it may not knock all the time...but the risk is high...regardless of the tune, the physical act of squeezing the mixture tighter will increase heat...which is the issue...

but yeah, you will not really see any gains until its tuned...and a 9.1:1 to 10.2:1 isn't a huge jump in compression...but it will be noticable after everything is tuned correctly

thanks for the insight, but in your opinion, do you think i'll have any problem with my setup (ze msp cam combo with the ze pistons, and a bunch of other bolt-ons)

Installshield 2 · Jun 19, 2006

any problem as in? I would definately switch to 91 rated at least...if you are speaking in terms of detonation...

It is hard to tell...being that our cars are relatively rich, you shouldn't have any problems with more stable gasoline...but I can't guarantee that...if you end up with 5 people in your car and are lugging it up a hill with the A/C on in 5th gear...a decent street tune would really help...

again though this is not a huge increase in compression...and we have a very low rod ratio, which is very good for withstanding detonation simply because the pistons do not sit at TDC as long...

My bet is you will be fine...others have done this...you will not see significant gains...but it will not hinder anything in all but the wierdest of conditions...I just can't say that you will never have detonation or anything, if that is what you are asking...

pm MP3Moose...he has been running these pistons for a while I believe...he would know a lot more about it than me...

rusty_mazda · Jun 20, 2006

is there really no power to be had even with the bump in compression and a tune or is the tune in that aspect more for reliability or such?

twilightprotege · Jun 20, 2006

i think someone on here got the mazdaspeed 10.7:1 pistons for his engine and gained 3 or 4whp. stock ecu doesnt know what to do.

Installshield 2 · Jun 20, 2006

rusty_mazda said:
is there really no power to be had even with the bump in compression and a tune or is the tune in that aspect more for reliability or such?

tuning will bring out the benefit of the increased compression...HC pistons have different dimensions and physically change the quench area of the combustion chamber...this makes it necessary to change fuel requirements and ignition timing...for added power and reliability...

again, everything being equal, you can get small gains just from compression alone...and you can also get detonation...but probably not with these...a static ~10-11:1 ratio in a very low rod ratio'd engine is not anything to really worry about with higher rated gas...despite a lack of tuning...but you can see very significant gains after a correct tune though...

Boston5761 · Jun 25, 2006

In the near future I plan on running these pistons with forged rods and a thinner head gasket. Hopefully bumping the compression range near 11....and a small shot of nitrous, 25-50...nothing more than 50 for sure. The nitrous defiantely won't be ran until proper engine mangement is in order. Do you guy's see any problems running these pistons with rods, ems, and 25 shot of nitrous? Higher compression equals better for nitrous, right?

Installshield 2 · Jun 26, 2006

nitrous oxide is similar to FI situations...in that it simply increases intake efficiency, to points above 100% in some situations...the molecules of N20 split apart at around 512 degrees or something (I forget what it is exactly), releasing an oxygen atom, and a pair of nitrogen atoms staying in gas form...the oxygen aids in the combustion process, and the nitrogen acts a buffer to keep temp and expansion rates in check...

opinions aside on whether nitrous is FI or not, treat as if it is...a 25 shot system will be fine with proper tuning on a higher compression engine...but don't push it...you will have more probability of detonation with higher comp, but you will make more power also...just remember that the tuning will be the difference between a machine and a grenade...

also I don't know what to make out of make of these pistons with forged rods...our stock rods break before we reach the limits of the pistons...but forged rods will not break, and it is hard to tell how strong these factory pistons will be in this type of setup...I have no experience messing with these pistons on any high performance FS engines...It may be more practical and safe to just purchase a set of forged rods and pistons together...most places have some options for higher compression already...

Saint-Knight · Jul 8, 2006

cool, how much do the forged rods cost? And where to get them?
According to that if u change the stock rods on forged oones, u have to change the pistons as well?

So bassiclly if u completly change ur piston and rods to forged one u will get like 10 whp??? Is that correct?

Jeph · Jul 8, 2006

I'm not too familiar with NA, but if you do get forged rods and HC pistons, would you get a longer rod, or keep it the same length?

Blackrose · Jul 9, 2006

Jeph said:
I'm not too familiar with NA, but if you do get forged rods and HC pistons, would you get a longer rod, or keep it the same length?

Thats a good question bump for answer

flat_black · Jul 9, 2006

Depends on the pistons you get. You can get a set that's made with the stock length, or you can get a longer rod setup. It's your choice. In all reality, the long rod would be the better of the two choices. But that's my opinion.

Jeph · Jul 10, 2006

I would say long rod too, but would that leave you at TDC longer, and leave you more prone for detonation without a good tune?

flat_black · Jul 10, 2006

Well, it would make the dwell longer, but that should lead, hopefully, to a more clean and complete burn, which means that it will be less likely to detonate ATDC... BTDC, you may run into some issues, but I can't really imagine it being a huge deal, since the 5.4" rods aren't too far estranged from stock.

Jeph · Jul 10, 2006

Good info, even though i will never be NA, its good to know

fsze piston, tune or no tune?

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