Light Steering (Electro-hydraulic power assist)

The steering of my Mazda3 became loose and sloppy after an unauthorized road crown adjustment that I was told involved changing the "toe in".

Although significantly improved after four return visits to the Mazda service department, the steering still feels very light compared with prior to the initial adjustment. We compared my vehicle's steering to a new demo during a one-hour solo test drive, and the differrence was significant. My vehicle has 21,000 km (19,000 at the time of the road crown adjustment).

My husband's suspicion is that something has gone wrong with the electro-hydraulic power-assist. The steering wheel in the demo unit felt solid, and experienced noticeable resistance against the direction of turn. The wheel in my vehicle no longer does.

At the first readjustment appointment, the technician admitted that something went wrong during the initial wheel alignment, perhaps incorrect calibration of the wheel alignment equipment. Is there any possibility the electro-hydraulic power assist unit was damaged either during the wheel alignment, or as a result of driving a vehicle with an incorrectly-calibrated wheel alignment. I ask the same question regarding the steering rack. It was replaced a few days ago. This did help by restoring a solid steering wheel when the vehicle is not moving, but had no effect on steering feel when the vehicle is moving.

We will be meeting with the dealer and Mazda's district service manager at the end of the month to discuss this issue, since the dealer says they can do nothing more for us. I'd appreciate receiving suggestions on what may have gone wrong, what needs to be done to fix it, and how to handle our meeting with the district manager. Although I acknowledge the steering of my vehicle is currently "not bad" when compared with all of the vehicles on the road, it no longer feels like a Mazda3. Instead, the steering has as much in common as that on my husband's 16-year old Toyota Camary as it does with my previously-enjoyed tight steering.

Do you have the specs from the last alignment? I would like to see what settings they aligned it to. I've never seen a FWD car's steering get "lighter" due to malfunction. usually it gets harder to turn.

xelderx said:

Do you have the specs from the last alignment? I would like to see what settings they aligned it to. I've never seen a FWD car's steering get "lighter" due to malfunction. usually it gets harder to turn.

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I don't have the specs from the last alignment, or any of the alignments. The service manager has assured me that the wheel alignment has been returned to exactly the same settings it had prior to the road crown adjustment. But, if the equipment was incorrectly calibrated during the road crown adjustment, would they even know what these settings were?

Regardless, even the service manager has admitted there must be something else going on not related to wheel alignment. I still wonder if something was done (either accidentally, or intentionally but with unexpected results) to damage or prematurely wear a steering component, or components. Afterall, the change was immediate (after 1 km driven in and out of the service bay during the road crown adjustment).

you NEED to get the alignment readings or we can't really advise you

Before I pull my hair out, please stop saying "road crown adjustment" there is no such thing. The only thing they can adjust is the toe (either in or out). Road crown refers to the curvature of the top of a road surface. It is given a crown for water drainage. A car tends to follow the road crown, which means the car will pull left a little when in the left lane, and vice-versa to the right.

Things that can make the steering lighter feeling than normal is tire pressure too high, and toe set too far in. Is it possible that your tire pressures were too low before you went in?

MightyMouse said:

Before I pull my hair out, please stop saying "road crown adjustment" there is no such thing. .

Is it possible that your tire pressures were too low before you went in?

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SORRY! I do know what road crown is -- I only said "road crown adjustment" because this is exactly how the Mazda service advisor described what they did. I thought this was an automotive forum, not an English class!

No, it is not possible my tire pressure was too low. This was already something I checked immediately before taking the vehicle in. In fact, I check it (and adjust, if necessary) after every fuel fill, or if the temperature changes significantly since it was last done.

You might be chasing ghosts, but I would go have an alignment done at an independent shop. They can print out the readings and most shops will let you come back and watch things being done if you explain the situation and tell them you would like to see how everything works.

Kaylee said:

I thought this was an automotive forum, not an English class!
.

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Yes it is an automotive forum, but we can't help when you use made up terms, and can't provide specifics on what was done.

MightyMouse said:

Yes it is an automotive forum, but we can't help when you use made up terms, and can't provide specifics on what was done.

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Come on guys...take it easy on her. Not everyone knows the torque specs on their motors by heart. She was convinced by the dealer that the alignment was correct and only restated the dealer's own words for describing things. Her only crime is trusting in the stealerships and she is certainly not alone in that. Some people just need their cars to work and they are not overly concerned with how it gets fixed or what was wrong with it to begin with. My waterheater quit working the other day so I called the repair guy and he fixed it. I don't know what broke or how he made it work again, but it makes hot water as and that's all I care about.

TheMAN said:

you NEED to get the alignment readings or we can't really advise you

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At this point, I'm not sure knowing the alignment readings is pertinent to my questions. Even the Mazda service manager admits we're not dealing with an alignment issue anymore. The alignment is perfect, and the vehicle is no longer being noticeably affected by road crown.

Essentially, my questions are (hypothetical):

Could too much toe in from "Day One" have damaged or prematurely worn a steering component(s), so that once the toe was adjusted properly within Mazda specs, attempts to tighten the steering by making further wheel alignment adjustments were not successful?

If something went wrong during the first wheel alignment (as admitted by the service tech), could this have damaged or prematurely worn a steering component(s), either during the adjustment itself, or while driving prior to the first realignment being done approximately one week later?

Replacing the steering rack did solve some, but not all, of the steering changes. Why would the steering rack have needed to be replaced after only 20,000 km of relatively gentle driving?

Thanks, xelderx

xelderx said:

Come on guys...take it easy on her. Her only crime is trusting in the stealerships and she is certainly not alone in that. Some people just need their cars to work and they are not overly concerned with how it gets fixed or what was wrong with it to begin with.

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Actually, I am concerned with how my vehicle gets fixed, and what was wrong with it to begin with. I've spent hours during the past three months studying automotive websites trying to understand steering and wheel alignment. In general (and not just related to my vehicle), my numerous questions seem to frustrate people. Fortunately, the Mazda guys have been polite and patient, but that hasn't resulted in a restored steering experience. I suspect they are glad, as of today, to be communicating with my husband instead of me. Thanks for your support.

I misjudged you. My mistake. You have an interesting problem. Most steering components, like the pump or rack, getting abnormally worn would cause the steering to get heavier. This doesn't seem to flow with what you are describing. I could possibly see bushings being worn prematurely and allowing the steering rack or tierods to float a bit, but that would be described more as a deadspot or vagueness in the steering wheel. Perhaps we just aren't using the same terminology to describe it. I would assume that the dealer would be able to drive it and feel these problems so I'm sure they have explored that option.

xelderx said:

II would assume that the dealer would be able to drive it and feel these problems so I'm sure they have explored that option.

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A service tech drove my vehicle (with me in it) a few blocks at less than 50 km per hour before declaring it to be fine. At that point, the steering was so loose it was difficult to keep the vehicle centered in its lane at speeds above 70 km/hr, and the steering wheel moved freely and independently from side to side. After the second alignment, the service manager tested the vehicle under the same conditions using a "one palm on the wheel" spinning style I remember from the overly power-assisted vehicles of the 1970's (I realize this dates me!). He also declared it OK. But in my opinion, for this steering style, the more easily the wheel moves, the better. This is not, and never has been, my steering style.

It is easy to achieve significant steering in my vehicle by lightly tapping each crossbar on the wheel with only an index finger. The activity causes both the wheel, and the vehicle, to move readily from side to side (like skiing a slalom course). During our weekend test-drive of a new vehicle, exactly the same pressure and technique resulted in virtually no steering wheel movement, or steering change. My steering wheel is still being jerked, or pulled, to one side in response to minor bumps or dips in the road surface. This is something I did not experience prior to the wheel alignment, or when test driving the demo.

The steering wheel of my vehicle has exactly the same tightness and feel when the vehicle is stopped (whether the engine is turned on, or off) as the demo car did. But, when driving, the steering in the two vehicles was not even recognizable as belonging to the same "species". We're hoping demonstrating this to the local and regional service managers on Friday will help them to diagnose the problem.

Well, to answer your question, if the toe was off "from day one" it will not damage any steering components. If driven for an extended period of time like this however, the tires may be worn slightly off. A tire rotation will determine if this is the case. That is the only damage that can be done if the alignment was off.

Kaylee said:

At this point, I'm not sure knowing the alignment readings is pertinent to my questions. Even the Mazda service manager admits we're not dealing with an alignment issue anymore. The alignment is perfect, and the vehicle is no longer being noticeably affected by road crown.

Essentially, my questions are (hypothetical):

Could too much toe in from "Day One" have damaged or prematurely worn a steering component(s), so that once the toe was adjusted properly within Mazda specs, attempts to tighten the steering by making further wheel alignment adjustments were not successful?

If something went wrong during the first wheel alignment (as admitted by the service tech), could this have damaged or prematurely worn a steering component(s), either during the adjustment itself, or while driving prior to the first realignment being done approximately one week later?

Replacing the steering rack did solve some, but not all, of the steering changes. Why would the steering rack have needed to be replaced after only 20,000 km of relatively gentle driving?

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knowing the alignment readings IS important to this discussion right now because all we can do otherwise is assume what's wrong with your car... we're not there, and we can't test drive your car

so far it is clear to me that your dealership was incompetent in dealing with your steering & suspension issue because:
1) they "adjusted" your alignment when your car "pulls to the right" when by nature all cars to varying degrees do that... but you didn't know that, and thats why you brought your concern to the dealership
2) they adjusted the WRONG thing that would affect the tracking of the car
3) after they "undo" the changes, they test drove your vehicle up to 50km/h (30mph) which is insignificant speed considering the overall average travel speed on your typical north american road is 80km/h (50mph), therefore is not sufficient to conclusively determine whether your "light steering" problem still exists your not
4) basing on the half assed "test" they did, they incompetently determined your car "drives fine"
5) with ALL facts taken into consideration, you still trust their word on "perfect alignment", when "perfect" is a highly subjective matter when it comes to a piece of machinery. ie: "perfect" maybe considered to some as "in the green" on the alignment computer, and not having EVEN readings from BOTH sides of the car

*any* honest alignment person/shop/dealer will *always* give you a print out of your before and after alignment readings, regardless of whether you understand it or not... it is used for future reference by anyone else working on your car in the future if a problem arises that relates to the steering & suspension or tires... it can also be used by some other person such as another mechanic from different shop to explain to you what they mean (as well as using that information to help him solve any of your future problems as I said)


*not* trying to be "hard" on you, just stating the facts and trying to reliably help you

Another clue in the mystery?

TheMAN said:

knowing the alignment readings IS important to this discussion right now because all we can do otherwise is assume what's wrong with your car... we're not there, and we can't test drive your car

so far it is clear to me that your dealership was incompetent in dealing with your steering & suspension issue because:

*not* trying to be "hard" on you, just stating the facts and trying to reliably help you

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No offence taken. Believe me, I have considered dealership incompetence. I tried to obtain advice from a competing Mazda dealership's service manager. He seemed totally disinterested, and rude. Since the vehicle is still under warranty, and since we don't believe alignment is the problem at this point, I'm not sure taking it to an independent alignment shop will accomplish anything. Here's why I think alignment is a "red herring".

A few days ago, I started a highway test-drive with loose steering in the city and at speeds not exceeding 90 km/hr on secondary roads. When I reached 110 km/hr on the major highway, the steering seemed to be stiffening up. For several km, I repeatedly varied my speed between 80 and 120 km/hr. Initially, the steering wheel was noticeably looser when I reduced my speed below 110. As I continued to drive, the speed at which the wheel became solid was dropping -- almost as if I was "pumping" pressure into the steering. For the remainder if my highway distance, I set the cruise at 115. I expected the steering to lighten once I reduced my speed re-entering the city. It did not. Instead, it retained a tight, direct and consistent feel for the remainder of my trip home, regardless of speed. However, by the following morning, the wheel was again loose -- as if the steering resistance that developed during the previous day's highway drive had "drained" overnight. The vehicle tracked perfectly straight with no hands on the wheel for long distances at 120 km/hr. I can't imagine how the wheel alignment could have changed from the beginning of this trip (loose steering) to the end (tight steering).

Perhaps our meeting with the District Service Manager tomorrow will achieve a solution.

knowing that the power steering system is an electric pump, it has to be computer controlled somehow for the "speed sensitive" s***... either there's something wrong with the fluid (which should be ATF, *not* power steering fluid), or there's something faulty with the electrical or computer that is causing it to not boost at the correct level

TheMAN said:

knowing that the power steering system is an electric pump, it has to be computer controlled somehow for the "speed sensitive" s***... either there's something wrong with the fluid (which should be ATF, *not* power steering fluid), or there's something faulty with the electrical or computer that is causing it to not boost at the correct level

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I believe the Mazda3 was the first vehicle in its class with electro-hydraulic power assist. So, I'm assuming this component is, at least in part, responsible for the significantly more satisfying steering response I experienced in the "3" compared with its competitors when test-driving prior to purchase. Since my vehicle no longer has the steering characteristics of a Mazda3, I think you're on the right track.

My husband thinks the initial wheel alignment (admittedly wrong, and possibly done on incorrectly-calibrated equipment) rattled the "s***" out of, or created an overload in the hydraulic unit, thereby damaging it (possibly causing a leak). Of course, he's not a mechanic, so could he be completely out-to-lunch. However, he is an engineer familiar with hydraulics.