Off Topic So slow I'm ashamed...

[7eregrine]

It's a good rant. I used to be all in on AMD. I'd also like them to compete.

 

[CTt3P5]

I built a PC for my son for Christmas back in 2014 but not for PC gaming. He was capturing Xbox game play on an Elgato and using the PC for editing/uploading etc. He hasn't used it in a couple of years and is now talking about moving from the Xbox over to PC for gaming.

This was my first (and last) time building a PC and I learned quite a few things along the way. If he decides to make the move it will def. need an upgrade here and there.

As it sits now....

• CASE – NZXT PHANTOM 410 (BLACK)
• MOTHERBOARD – MSI 970A-G43 ATX (AMD970)
• CPU – AMD FX-6300 3.5 GHz 6-CORE PROCESSOR
• MEMORY – CORSAIR VENGEANCE BLUE 8GB (2X4GB) DDR3-2133
• VIDEO CARD – MSI RADEON R7 250 2GB DDR3
• STORAGE – WESTERN DIGITAL CAVIAR BLUE 1TB 3.5” 7200RPM
• OPTICAL DRIVE – LG BLU-RAY/DVD/CD WRITER
• POWER SUPPLY – CORSAIR CX-500M 80+ BRONZE CERTIFIED
• OPERATING SYSTEM – WINDOWS 7 HOME PREMIUM SP1
• FANS – NZXT 120MM BLUE LED
• SLEEVED LED KIT – NZXT BLUE

 

[7eregrine]

You could reuse the case, and the fans! Maybe the PSU.

 

[CTt3P5]

I figured the case and fans were the only things that could be re-used and thought maybe the hard drive. But just how good is 1TB in the gaming world these days? My guess is not very. Might be able to re-use the PSU but if we are going to re-build I might as well upgrade that too. I'd rather future-proof it then run bare minimum and end up ripping it apart down the road.

He hasn't decided yet what he is doing so we shall see.

 

[7eregrine]

A TB is still great, but it's the old 'spinner' drive and not the more modern SSD drive that you are going to want for the OS. So that would become your second drive for storage.

 

[ColoradoDriver]

Your biggest speed upgrade at this point would be installing the OS on an SSD. Even a 2.5" SATA would be a huge upgrade.

Depending on what you upgrade to, you may want a new PSU for sure. Lots of parts these days are power hungry (looking at you Nvidia).

 

[CTt3P5]

Thanks for the advice. Will come in useful if we proceed with a re-build.

 

[ColoradoDriver]

Sure thing!

So did anyone watch the Zen 3 announcement. Liking what I saw in terms of advertised improvements, though as always will wait to see the independent reviews.

The $50 price hikes is fair I think as AMD is not the scrub brand it was during the Bulldozer era. That said, a little miffed that they aren't launching replacements for the 3700X which makes the entry into 4 core/8 thread more like a $120 price hike when comparing the 5800X to the 3700X. Also, definitely don't agree with pricing for the 5600X. 6 core/12 thread part should not be $300 in my opinion.

Was expecting to hear it be on 7nm EUV process, but seems to be on the same 7nm process as the Zen 2 refresh (XT lineup).

The Big Navi tease at the end, I totally think that is their second from the top card. If that ends up being true, then they should be competitive with the 3080 no problem. At that point it will come to their software/feature stack. They really have to have a DLSS equivalent and we have yet to see how they will be doing their ray tracing.

Overall, exciting times.

 

[Antoine]

Always nice to read your analysis, @ColoradoDriver

though as always will wait to see the independent reviews.

Exactly...Exciting news but waiting for the independent reviews (for both the CPUs and GPUs).

 

[7eregrine]

No, didn't watch. I'm so out of the AMD loop, sadly.

 

[ColoradoDriver]

No, didn't watch. I'm so out of the AMD loop, sadly.

Recent leaks suggest new RDNA2 cards will best 3080. Guess we'll find out Wednesday. Exciting if true.

 

[ColoradoDriver]

3070...interesting card but I have to question 3 generations of xx70 class cards only having 8GB VRAM as 4k gaming becomes more prevalent. Meets or slightly beat 2080 Ti, but RT/DLSS perf actually slightly worse...and yeah 3GB less of the VRAM also being a 256-bit bus vs 352.

When I had my 2GB GTX 670 back in the day, when it ran out of VRAM the slide show stutter as it switched to system RAM was awful and unplayable. It's a concern.

Personally I think this card is a dud unless you plan to game on 1080/1440 only.

Recent rumors suggest Nvidia canceled plans for a 16GB variant of the 3070 and 20GB version of the 3080. Speculation on my part but I think instead of puting any more eggs in the Samsung "8"nm basket, we'll see an Ampere refresh on TSMC 7nm next year with these variants as well and they will be better with power, clock speeds, and VRAM. Just my guess.

Also, if you have a 1080 Ti, why would you regress in VRAM to 8 or 10GB from 11GB? Especially if you plan to game 4k and we are on the cusp of a new console gen.

I am not that positive on Ampere launch personally. It performs, but there are design decisions that leave one to wonder long term viability of these cards.

 

[Antoine]

3070...interesting card but I have to question 3 generations of xx70 class cards only having 8GB VRAM as 4k gaming becomes more prevalent. Meets or slightly beat 2080 Ti, but RT/DLSS perf actually slightly worse...and yeah 3GB less of the VRAM also being a 256-bit bus vs 352.

When I had my 2GB GTX 670 back in the day, when it ran out of VRAM the slide show stutter as it switched to system RAM was awful and unplayable. It's a concern.

Personally I think this card is a dud unless you plan to game on 1080/1440 only.

Recent rumors suggest Nvidia canceled plans for a 16GB variant of the 3070 and 20GB version of the 3080. Speculation on my part but I think instead of puting any more eggs in the Samsung "8"nm basket, we'll see an Ampere refresh on TSMC 7nm next year with these variants as well and they will be better with power, clock speeds, and VRAM. Just my guess.

Also, if you have a 1080 Ti, why would you regress in VRAM to 8 or 10GB from 11GB? Especially if you plan to game 4k and we are on the cusp of a new console gen.

I am not that positive on Ampere launch personally. It performs, but there are design decisions that leave one to wonder long term viability of these cards.

Appreciate the analysis! Looking forward to see how AMD’s cards compare...

 

[ColoradoDriver]

Appreciate the analysis! Looking forward to see how AMD’s cards compare...

Yeah, saw a lot of interesting specs/slides/features today, but will reserve ultimate judgment until we have actual reviews. I will comment that while they undercut Nvidia in price, it's an overpriced market and I was honestly hoping for better from AMD on that front. That said, general consumer-base has gotten used to high prices across the stack over the past several years so from a business standpoint, can't blame AMD for playing off of the market price-points Nvidia created.

Announced cards:

• 6900XT (Competes against RTX 3090) - $999
• 6800XT (Competes against RTX 3080) - $649
• 6800 (Slotted between RTX 3070 and 3080) - $579

Personally would have liked to see the 6800XT at $599 and 6800 at $499 with a $399 6700XT coming in later to compete vs 3070.

I am convinced now though that if reviews pan out similar to the marketing benchmarks seen today, Nvidia will refresh by summer next year with Super/Ti variants. Until that happens we probably won't see a price war.

 

[7eregrine]

Came for this and not disappointed. Isn't this like AMD's first thousand dollar card?
I've been chasing price > performance which to me has been the ##70 series. So for example I want to upgrade while my 2070 still commands $300 or more on the used market and upgrade to a 3070, which if a 6700XT was $399 I might make the switch. As it is... I might be shopping 3070's.... if they ever ship.

Can I also just say my computer BLAZES! My god this thing is fast. and this is on a 6th gen.... 6th!!! i7. The video card is just king. Takes so much pressure off the the processor. Still... astonishing... how fast it loads webpages. I love this thing.

 

[ColoradoDriver]

Came for this and not disappointed. Isn't this like AMD's first thousand dollar card?
I've been chasing price > performance which to me has been the ##70 series. So for example I want to upgrade while my 2070 still commands $300 or more on the used market and upgrade to a 3070, which if a 6700XT was $399 I might make the switch. As it is... I might be shopping 3070's.... if they ever ship.

Can I also just say my computer BLAZES! My god this thing is fast. and this is on a 6th gen.... 6th!!! i7. The video card is just king. Takes so much pressure off the the processor. Still... astonishing... how fast it loads webpages. I love this thing.

Yeah once you have a certain level of CPU and start gaming at 1440p or 4k, the CPU doesn't matter so much like it would at 1080p gaming. My 4790k has done fine over the last 6 years (can't say the same for my 980 once I got a 1440p monitor though heh).

Personally I am not a fan of the 3070 in it's current iteration. To me the 8GB in 2020, almost 21 is planned obsolescence for higher resolution gaming. And while the FE cards might be $499 if you can find one, all the AIB models I saw for sale at my local Micro Center today were all $530 - $550. Remember, we're talking an xx70 class card here. If the 3070 was $399-$450 I would see it more favorably. It's overpriced.

Here's a breakdown of how you got less for more over time in this class, similar to the x80 tier.

• GTX 470 (2010): 1.28GB GDDR5 320-bit bus, GF100 chip (cut down highest end Fermi) - $349
• GTX 570 (2010): 1.28GB GDDR5 320-bit bus, GF110 chip (cut down highest end Fermi refresh) - $349
• GTX 670 (2012): 2GB GDDR5 256-bit bus, GK104 chip (cut down mid-range Kepler chip) - $400
• GTX 770 (2013): 2GB GDDR5 256-bit bus, GK104 chip (rebrand of the GTX 680) - $399
• GTX 970 (2014): 3.5+0.5GB GDDR5 224+32-bit bus, GM204 chip (cut down mid-range Maxwell chip) - $329 (see #9 below for clarification on mem config)
• GTX 1070 (2016): 8GB GDDR5 256-bit bus, GP204 chip (cut down mid-range Pascal chip) - $449 (Founder's Edition), $379+ (AIB models)
• GTX 1070 Ti (2017): 8GB GDDR5 256-bit bus, GP104 chip (functionally same mid-range Pascal chip with only one less SM than the GTX 1080 vs 5 on the 1070 - Released to beat the Vega 56) - $449
• RTX 2070 (2018): 8GB GDDR6 256-bit bus, TU106 chip (Not even the mid-range chip anymore, now shares same chip as xx60 class) - $599 (Founder's Edition), $499+ (AIB models)
• RTX 2070 Super (2019): 8GB GDDR6 256-bit bus, TU104 chip (Notice, this version has same mid-range Turing chip as 2080 and 2080 Super now, only cut down vs those chips. Released to combat 5700XT) - $499+
• RTX 3070 (2020): 8GB GDDR6 256-bit bus, GA104 chip (currently only GA104 card as the 3080 moved back up a tier in chip) - $499 (Founder Edition), $499+ (AIB models)

From this list we can extrapolate a few trends.

1. Prior to the GTX 670, the x80 and x70 class cards always utilized the top end chips (i.e. x80 is full chip (or fullest version of chip) with the x70 existing as a slightly cut down version of said chip. I only went back as far as Fermi, but it is historically true prior as well. With Kepler, both products would retain these product numbers associated with high-end GeForce, as well as pricing, but move to be mid-range chips/cards within the stack.
2. A further sign that the x70 and x80 class cards were now firmly a tier lower than their previous slots within the product lineup can be seen by the move towards a 256-bit memory interface. Slower and problematic with the memory controllers/logic used for these cards for higher resolution gaming or high-res textures and texture mods. I can attest to that first hand with my GTX 670 in 2012 and modded Skyrim struggling hard on this card.
3. With Kepler, Maxwell, and Pascal, VRAM capacity doubled each generation, as did their x80, x80 Ti, Titan counterparts. However, the Pascal Titan X (referred to as the Xp) did not over it's Maxwell Titan X predecessor and so the 1080 Ti was segmented from this Titan by removing 1 memory chip which made it 11GB vs 12GB and removes 32-bits of the memory bus making it a 352-bit card vs 384-bit. Basically, it started getting weird here when it came to VRAM configs.
4. With Turing, the 2070 actually moved down another tier in chip where instead of sharing the same mid-range chip as the 2080, it instead is a higher binned/unlocked chip of the 2060. Yet the price increased as well. Also of note is that the entire stack retained the same memory configuration as their Pascal predecessors, with the exception of the Titan RTX moving to 24GB. That said, they did move from GDDR5 to GDDR6 with this launch, which did increase the bandwidth. That said, you will find titles that will max VRAM utilization on these cards at 4k.
5. The 2070 was officially discontinued with the launch of the 2070 Super which price-point replaced it and was launched along with the 2060 Super in response to the launch of RX 5000 series. Of note, this returned the 2070 Super to the same tier chip as the 2080/2080 Super, and functionally the 2070 Super was a marginally slower 2080.
6. The 3070 releases and performance does make it effectively a 2080 Ti for $500, except there's a few caveats. It's still only 8GB of VRAM (3 less than the 2080 Ti) which is seen as not very future proof as we move into next gen consoles, and higher resolution gaming. To Nvidia's credit, it does stay within the x04 chip tier instead of trying to bump it down again.
7. Founders Edition bunged everything up starting with Pascal. Anytime you see an AIB price, you can almost guarantee the cards will actually cost more, and they always did.
8. Nvidia stagnated certain specs such as memory since Pascal.
9. EDIT: Oh and the GTX 970 is infamous for it's memory config. It is a 4GB card, but 3.5GB is really the usable portion over a 224-bit bus. The last 0.5GB portion existed separately being significantly slower (7x slower) on it's own 32-bit bus, to the point games reaching the slow RAM after 3.5GB would take a significant performance hit once reaching aboe 3.5GB VRAM utilization. Class action lawsuit. GTX 970 purchasers received $30 for each card purchased as card was marketed as having a 4GB 256-bit config, same as GTX 980.

Turing was definitely the biggest offender, but like the x80's, over the years you are philosophically speaking receiving less for more as it exists within the product stack. The 2070 is the absolute BIGGEST offender on this front when compared to all other x70 class cards generation to generation. Compare current lineup with Fermi and prior and what you would see since Kepler is that Titans were the x80 product. The x80 Ti's were the x70's. Current x80's (with the exception of Ampere), were the x60's. And x70's were the x50's.

Now, obviously functionally you get more performance each gen, so I am not trying to diminish that. But you are paying more for lower in the product stack, and since Pascal, Nvidia definitely stagnated certain elements such as memory which would seem like planned obsolescence for any card being released at the cusp of 2021.

 

[CTt3P5]

So our son has opted to switch over to PC gaming. His friend who has some experience building them put this list of components together. Thought I'd share here to get some thoughts/opinions/advice on the list. I am by no means any expert but would like the PC to be good enough for a couple of years. At the moment he is playing Smite quite a bit and enjoys FPS, i.e. CoD, etc. and said he isn't interested in sports games.

https://pcpartpicker.com/list/KTCHGq

edit - Scratch that list above. It is what he was asking us for as a Christmas present so he was trying to keep cost minimal. After talking it over with mom, we have decided to front him the money to build one and he will pay us back. He is now putting together a new list of components and is very, very excited. Plus, he gets to build it now and it will be a great learning experience for him.

I bought him a Samsung T55 Series 27" 1000R curved monitor for college back in August (upgrade from his old Acer H6 Series 23" IPS). He is going to run dual monitors using the T55 for school work, etc. and looking for a new monitor with 1440p and a 144hz refresh rate. Too bad Samsung's 49" curved monitor is only 1080p. lol

 

[ColoradoDriver]

So our son has opted to switch over to PC gaming. His friend who has some experience building them put this list of components together. Thought I'd share here to get some thoughts/opinions/advice on the list. I am by no means any expert but would like the PC to be good enough for a couple of years. At the moment he is playing Smite quite a bit and enjoys FPS, i.e. CoD, etc. and said he isn't interested in sports games.

https://pcpartpicker.com/list/KTCHGq

edit - Scratch that list above. It is what he was asking us for as a Christmas present so he was trying to keep cost minimal. After talking it over with mom, we have decided to front him the money to build one and he will pay us back. He is now putting together a new list of components and is very, very excited. Plus, he gets to build it now and it will be a great learning experience for him.

I bought him a Samsung T55 Series 27" 1000R curved monitor for college back in August (upgrade from his old Acer H6 Series 23" IPS). He is going to run dual monitors using the T55 for school work, etc. and looking for a new monitor with 1440p and a 144hz refresh rate. Too bad Samsung's 49" curved monitor is only 1080p. lol

This is a good budget build for 1080p gaming, and plenty sufficient for school.

1660 Ti is great for 1080p, but if you are planning to go 1440p, an RX 5700 (non-XT model) would be better if you can find one reasonably priced (no more than $350). If you can't then 1660 Ti is fine, just expect to turn settings down at 1440p for newer titles that come out. You mentioned using this PC for a couple years, so honestly no big deal, stick to the cheaper card if you are going to upgrade in a couple years anyway.

My only other advice would be to forgo the small SSD + HDD and just get a single higher capacity SSD and add a HDD if you really need it later down the road. But honestly, not a big deal either way. You know better your storage needs.

Overall looks good. Assuming you have a case already? Didn't see one in the list.

 

[ColoradoDriver]

So with the release of RX 6000...impressive return to competition against Nvidia strictly speaking on rasterization vs rasterization performance. Nvidia kills it on ray tracing and DLSS is certainly a factor as well, so that really depends on what games you play.

Some of my extrapolations of the data: Ampere shines at 4k and performs better than would normally be expected at 4k mainly due to how it's architecture is built to tackle higher resolutions. For the same reason it unfortunately scales poorly at 1440p and 1080p and this is where you see Big Navi win against it pretty consistently. Big Navi does scale accross all 3 resolutions, however at 4k, Ampere just does better.

Ray Tracing performance is as expected. AMD will probably need to bring a DLSS solution to really help it in some titles.

Value: If talking total package (performance, features, etc.), it's overpriced. Sadly seems to still be the state of the GPU market these days.

Power consumption is looking great on Big Navi vs Ampere. Big Navi actually has overclocking headroom, so there is some performance left on the table to be gained, especially with AIB partner models with presumably higher power limits.

AMD also has a history of "Fine Wine" aging meaning driver enhancements over time tend to significantly improve their cards from where they were at launch. For instance, the RX 5700 (non XT) competed against the 2060 at launch, but today can compete with the 2070.

Overall ball is in Nvidia's court now. Their current lineup makes no sense in how its stacked vs Big Navi.

 

[7eregrine]

My only comment is the dual monitors. I mean, he has this Sammy already? He knows how big it is? As the #1 biggest fan of dualies as I affectionately call it, once you get to 27", a second monitor becomes much less important.
I have 2 24's at work and one 27 at home.