Neutral Safety switch

[kenshin33]

Hi,
I have a 2003 p5, equiped with a remote starter, I want to swap it (remote is about to go and no way to find one of the same brand).
The new system I baught has the exact same pinout/connectors as the old one the only diffrence is the antena connector and one auxliary programable output (it's a prostart CT-3371).
The swap should be easy (excep for runing the antena cable, no clue were to start or how)

The one I have, need to be put in ready mode ion order to operate, the manual insists that the hand break/door input must be connected for manual transmission. For safety reasons I guess (avoir starting the car while in gear).
which brings the : Neutral Safety switch : what is it's role exactely??
will it stop the car from starting if not in neutral? if yes, why remotes starter requires the ready sequence? Should I just discnnect the door input cables from the starter module?

if no can I use it to simulate door open/close state (I can not be sur 100% that it is in neutral) ? (if in neutral door is closed, ready mode still on, if gear == door opened , cancel ready mode, regardless of door status)

The wiring diagram found with the service manual in a link on wikibooks -file name P5_Wire.pdf- page maked B2d states : NSS open when in neutral/clutch pedal depressed, which seems to contradict all about it service manual ie : wiring shows terminal A connects to ground and B to pin 64 of PCM and manual says if in neutral pin 64 should be less 1.0V -grounded for all intents and purposes- and 12V if in gear whci indicates : switch open (no connection A/B) == in gear switch closed (A/B connected and ince A is grounded B is too) == in neutral


thanks

Just tested :
the P/G wire (the one that goes to ECU pin 64) tests 12v only if the ignition is ON.
2 relay setup may
on that diusconnects everything if ig is on, and connects the switch to a second relay (with a diod) that will use the switch as a triger short dor (-) to ground if the switch is open (in gear) and opens if the the switch is closed (in neutral) .

View attachment 205172

 

[Balls]

Not trying to be rude here, but you should definitely not be trying to install this by yourself if you don't understand the basics of how it works. The whole reason for all the song and dance for the manual transmission setup is so the vehicle can't be remote started while in gear. The starter motor in the car is much stronger than the emergency brake and the vehicle will move if tried to start while in gear. I have seen it happen and had to chase a vehicle across 5 lanes of traffic because of someone else's poor install and disregard to the proper safety precautions. The way it should work once hooked up is that when you get to your destination, you go through the set up procedure (a little different for every brand) you will then remove your key from the ignition and get out. At this time the vehicle will still be running. Once you close the door and lock it, the vehicle will shut off. It is now ready to be remote started. It knows that the vehicle is in neutral because it was running when you locked the door. If the brain sees that the door has been opened or the ignition has been turned on, it cancels the ability to start because someone could have put it in gear (accidentally or otherwise). I would strongly advise you do not try to do this yourself and instead bring it to a reputable store in your area to let them tackle it. You are in Montreal, there are a couple excellent options. Fortin is a good place and you actually have the headquarters for idatalink there. They are arguably the best company around for bypass modules for vehicles with transponder systems. They are the only company I deal with for them and I do around 400-500 of these a year.

 

[kenshin33]

Not trying to be rude here, but you should definitely not be trying to install this by yourself if you don't understand the basics of how it works. The whole reason for all the song and dance for the manual transmission setup is so the vehicle can't be remote started while in gear. The starter motor in the car is much stronger than the emergency brake and the vehicle will move if tried to start while in gear. I have seen it happen and had to chase a vehicle across 5 lanes of traffic because of someone else's poor install and disregard to the proper safety precautions. The way it should work once hooked up is that when you get to your destination, you go through the set up procedure (a little different for every brand) you will then remove your key from the ignition and get out. At this time the vehicle will still be running. Once you close the door and lock it, the vehicle will shut off. It is now ready to be remote started. It knows that the vehicle is in neutral because it was running when you locked the door. If the brain sees that the door has been opened or the ignition has been turned on, it cancels the ability to start because someone could have put it in gear (accidentally or otherwise). I would strongly advise you do not try to do this yourself and instead bring it to a reputable store in your area to let them tackle it. You are in Montreal, there are a couple excellent options. Fortin is a good place and you actually have the headquarters for idatalink there. They are arguably the best company around for bypass modules for vehicles with transponder systems. They are the only company I deal with for them and I do around 400-500 of these a year.

SAfety is exately why took the time to read the service manual, install guide of a lot of remote starters, and searched on a lot of forums. I didn't find a definitive answer, so I asked.
The module (brain) swap is a breeze it is exactely the same connectores (no harness to change no wires to cut exxcept for the antenna). the other thing can wait.

the starter may overcome , the ebreak but it 't overcome the weight of the car (unless your on very steep hill, and you pads are wornout), the car will simply jump and hit whatever there is in front of it. the whole point if having a transmission in ICE, is that it will stall (as it depends on it being able to trun to continue to turn) if it encounter heavy reistance (and not being able to turn), unlikek electrics motors that will continue if released.

 

[Balls]

It won't stall, as I have seen with my own eyes. The vehicle in question (remote starter was NOT installed by us) went across our parking lot, over a 3ft tall mound of dirt (there was a major road project going on at the time), across 5 lanes of traffic, over the 3ft mound of dirt on the other side of the road, through the parking lot on the other side of the road, and finally stopped when it hit a parked car. Now imagine there was a child in the way of the vehicle that didn't see it, or the drivers going down the road didn't see it as it went across. The fact that you said you had no idea how to run the antenna cable is the reason I responded that you problably shouldn't be doing this yourself. That's about the easiest part of the install. Also the fact that you say "the car will simply jump and hit whatever there is in front of it" is a huge concern as well. I am assuming by that statement you don't have children.

 

[kenshin33]

as a mater of fact I do have a child (1 year oild), and the first time I tried to start a car (20 or so years ago) it did jump and stall (didn't noitce the gear was in 1st, and european cars do not need the clutch depressed to start, you just trun the key). again the whole [oint of me asking here is that I want to do it right (the doors cancel ready mode is a pain, as my GF or I will open the door to get somthing we forgot or to put say the stroller in the truck or .... and at that point you need start the car do the sequence again and again). Noit all manual cars have NSS switch as it happens this one does, so why not use it (the whole point of the ready sequence is to make sur the car is in neutral -this switch gives exactely that information : shotrted to ground if in neutral open otherwise. jsut went out in the cold to test it )

as for the antena, if it's that easy please tell how (I don't want to take the interior apart)

 

[kenshin33]

Hi, again @Balls, afr reading my replies they looked like a bit "rude", I'm sorry, it wasn't my intention (was just stating the fact from my perspective).
The whole reason I'm posting, is safety first and formost (otherwise I would have just disconneced the door trigger wire and be done with it). the way the system is rigged is nice (better than nothing) but a bit annoying. I'm more likely to open the door (forgot somthing in the car, had to put something in the car ... etc) than touch the shifter.
The P5 has a neutral safety switch on the transmission so why not use it.

The diagram in the OP would work (rearanginf the wires) but means a relay must stay close while the car is parked. how much dmagaw will that do to the battery overnight ???

this looks promising and has the perfect logic (that switch is like a tripwire: open? sound the alarm -cancel ready mode-, closed? everything is okey)

http://www.instructables.com/id/Extremely-Easy-and-Safe-Trip-Wire/step1/The-Circuit/

powering a resistor (+ a LED) beats powering a coil.


Or there's the microcontroler route (some arduinos are cheap an not power hungry -they can sleep-, and ca eben coupled with a an external power source like rechargable battry that can recharge like a phone when the car is running) and this will simplify the switching solution even more (at least for me, as wrinting code is simpler that drawing circuits)