Final Protege Ignition System Thread

[aftershock63]

These following thread are all about trying to get an ignition system onto a Neon whether it P5 MP3 or MSP, but none really prove anything only the fact that it has not been done.

http://www.msprotege.com/forum/showthread.php?t=53605&highlight=ignition
http://www.msprotege.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27669
http://www.msprotege.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27688
http://www.msprotege.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1211


I've been talking with Victor at MSD about this system on the P5. Here are the facts that I have found about our cars:

We have a CAPASITIVE DISCHARGE ignition
We have a WASTE spark system
We have HIGH impedence coils
The inputs to the are as follows: Trigger, Neg, Pos ( http://protege5.ugly.net/01-18.PDF )
We have the coil IGNITERS built into our coils


HIGH impedence coils are not compatable with ANY ignition system so NEW coils must be purchased.

My plan is to keep the ignition system as a WASTE spark ignition since I believe that will be easyest and also because I only have the 2 channel DIS-2 ignition (which was donated to me by a very kind member of this board).

With the combined information that I have found through research of our ignition system and the information that Victor has provided to me I have come up with a plan of attack.

Nessisary Parts:
1x 6211 MSD DIS-2
1x Mitsubishi round coil pack harness
1x 8229 MSD Mitsubishi 4 Tower coil pack
1x 32323 Set of MSD Super Conductor Wires from Teg 1.8L Non- V-Tech
1x Custom Bracket to hold coil pack
1x 8912 MSD DIS Dual Ignition Tach Adapter

Part Explainations:

MSD DIS-2: I will be using this because it was given to me for one thing but it will also be all you will need to run a waste spark system on a 4 cylinder engine

MSD Mitsubishi 4 Tower Coil Pack: I verified that this coil pack is compatable with all MSD Ignition. This particular coil pack has 2 seperate coil pack in one housing so I figured it would help for ease of instalation over 2, 2 tower GM packs.

Super Conductor Wires: Cheaper than the Nology but still very high quality. I figured I shoudl try to save some money incase it doesn't work. Why honda wires? I knew that they would be long enough and that they are basically being used as a universal set or wires.

DIS Dual Ignition Tach Adapter: What this unit does is it hooks into the harness that you plug into the DIS-2 and it interupts the signal. It then passes the trigger signal through to the box and it simulates the coil being triggered and sends it back to the ECU for tach/injetor signal. This unit actually contains 2 small ignition coils to simulate the signal.

Why Waste Spark: It will be easyest to set up because there are only 2 trigger wires and I do not what to take the time or risk to try and figure out how to convert it to a coil per plug set up.

Plan of Attack:

What I plan on doing after I gather all of the parts is simple, if you look at the instalation manuel (which I will post a link to later) the actual install of the DIS unit itself is fairly simple, the normal positive and negative conections to power the unit and one ACC conection to power the unit on and off with the car. After that there is only a few more wires to hook up. I will post detailed install instruction later i do not have the manual on me. It should be simply this, Connect your tigger wire to the signal converter and then connect them to the proper inputs onto the box. Take the puts from the box and connect them to the proper places on the new coil pack. Make sure that you have the 1-3 trigger connected to the coil that will be firing coils 1-3 and also make sure that you have your wires going to the proper plugs. You DO NOT what to plug 1-2 into the same coil pack.

I will go home later and right up more detial instructions with part numbers later and will also order the rest of the parts I need. They will hopefully all be in within a week. The only thing that I might have to wait on is the output harness to the box they ordered one for me today. The gental man that gave it to me could not find this piece.


Please post only valid questions concerns and comments and I will address them as time allows.

 

[aftershock63]

Must do the manditory thing you know.


Disclaimer:

In no way shape or form is MSD, Victor, or myself going to be held responsible for anything that may happen during or in any way dealing with with this information. MSD had gotten burned from someone that they helped with a custon install and ended up pay over $3k to fix his car. So do not call MSD about this installation they will not help you. Please remember that this is a completely custom setup so if you run into problems I will be your only tech support.

I would also like take this Time to give a HUGE thank you to Victor for helping me get as far as I am now. He dropped a few wink wink type of hints that he really wasn't aloud to, so I thank him for putting himself on the line and taking as many chances as he did. The quick connector part is one that I never would have thought of and he said that they only sell 2 a year and that they only keep 10 on stock at the warehouse. Once again I would liek to thank him for all of his help.

 

[aftershock63]

A lot of New Information:

First I will be posting a link to PDF files where I got all of my tech data from so that you know what I'm doing is creditable but I can't FTP to my site from work so I have to do it at home.

I've put in a lot of effort to get 2 tech sheets. One for the MSD-8802 (quick connector) the one that Victor wasn't a loud to give me. Well I got it, but not from him. The other is for the Accel BEI II 39000 Series distributor. I needed that because in the MSD install instructions they do not tell you what the inputs are, it just states that it plugs into the BEI connector. Funny thing about when I called Mr. Gasket (owners of Accel) the tech guy was super nice and ever upbeat I ask him if he was ready for a challange, he said sure. So i fired my question off at him and he said "you got a fax number? I'm going to have to go down to the library an find them for you".

So no that I have all of the tech sheets I have determinded that the 8802 is not nessisary, nor do I think it will work the way it is supposed to on our cars. For an explaination of what it does please look at the above post I will update and explain in more detail to what it does there.

I'm at the point where I have just about everything I need to start to put together a beta test setup. I will go into more detail about how I am going to setup the test later. I am still waiting to recieve my new plug for the DIS-2 form MSD and I also need to pick up the harnes that plug into the coil pack I picked up.


Now I will go threw the parts that I have purcahsed or already have:

8229 Mitsu. Blaster 4 tower coil pack for a 94-02 2.0L Eclipse (need to get harness form junk yard)

8912 Dual Ignition Tach Adapter

32323 Super Conductor wire for Teg 1.8L Non-V-Tech (just as good as a universal version)

6211 DIS-2

 

[aftershock63]

Information used:



http://www.murcko.net/MSD.pdf

http://www.murcko.net/AccelBEI.pdf

 

[vindication]

sounds cool and like a lot of work. keep us updated.

 

[p5sundevil]

Sounds like one hell of a plan, but since I am newer to ignition system design and function what is the purpose of going through all this, I mean potential gains, does it make the car run better, gas mileage gains and so forth. I know I see everyone in a honda/acura using an ignition system.

 

[Turbo Matty P]

Being that the stock ignition is a capacative ignition unit what are you hoping to gain by upgrading? I use Jacobs igniton mostly, but MSD is nice if you need it. I would look for a M-S-D ignition...something that uses Multiple Spark Discharge...not MSD the brand name. A capacative charge system and a multi-spark will help out on boosed motors, but do almost nothing for NA motors. It basically stores up a lot fo spark and waits to fire it off...once it does it uses the resistance across the spark gap to determine if another shot is needed. If so it fires off another blast in 1-1,000 of a second. This ensures a very hot complete burn. This is crucial to a turbo application but will do nothing for a NA motor that doesn't have massive amounts of fuel and air to burn.

Run that by Vick at MSD and see what he says.

 

[aftershock63]

I will post answers in the morning I'm tired but I do have answers but also more questions.

 

[Turbo Matty P]

I'd like to hear these answers....I've used both MSD and Jacobs....they work basically the same and provide the same power..I've used them on both turbo apps and NA apps. The only time I noticed a gain on a NA car was a 1967 Mustang GT with a K-code 289. The motor had a huge carb and a B&M blowerscoop. It had a lot of air and fuel and the JAcobs really helped burn it all....it was night and day difference in power, idle and mileage. You could disconnect the ignition module and watch the idle start getting sloppy, plug it back in and it was as smooth as glass. Another plus of the Jacobs is that it leaves the stock ignition in place. IF it ever fails it simply resorts back to the stock set-up....the MSD won't do that.

Just my $0.02, not a product sale.

 

[Captain KRM P5]

I have been told countless times that the ignitors are in the ECU itself - which is why with certain standalones the stock alternator is made worthless.

 

[aftershock63]

Turbo Matty P:
If you read through the info from the MSD web site it states that this is a multi spark ignition until you reach 4000RPM then it states that there isn't enough time for multiple sparks so it discharges one powerful spark.

You are correct when saying this will not benifit a normal NA tuned motor. When I say normal as in stock compression. This would be very good to have in a high conpression motor. Regardless I still think there could be some benifits like launch controls, and a over all nicer spark would make the engine run smoother but my still not be worth the extra money.

As for the different ignition manufactures I can't say anything bad about any of them because I have not work with anything but MSD. I would assuse that they are just as good but I am using this because it was free, has good tech support, and it fits the application well.

Now when you are talking abotu being able to unplug the ignition module to go back to stock ignition was that on a CD ignition? MSD DOES make a "by-pass" (which is supplied with the ignition) plug which you can take and plug into the ignition harness which will by pass the unit and run just off the stock inputs and out puts. The only reason that this may not work on this application is because I'm not sure if the new coil is compatable with the stock ignition.

 

[aftershock63]

I have been told countless times that the ignitors are in the ECU itself - which is why with certain standalones the stock alternator is made worthless.

Alternator:
What he is talking about is the voltage regulator that controls how hard works. I'm not sure whether or not it is located in the ECU or not. A lot of times they are located right on the alternator themselves but I have seen them else where.

Coil Ignitor:

Who is telling you that? In no way is that true. I'll explain. The first reason that they would not be located in the ECU would be cost. The amount of extra money that the manufacture would have to spend to shield the ECU itself and to shield the cables runing from the ECU to the coils, then the cost of replacing the ECU under warrenty if one would happen to go bad. It just all adds up to too much money spent by the manufacture. Second would be the way the ignitor works is that it dumps a high voltage signal to the coil so it will release its energy to fire the plug. Since it is such a high voltage signal any distance of cable would cause a voltage drop and also interference in other electrical devices.

MY proof that they are built into coil pack is the picture below. It shows you how to test your coil for spark. As you can see you have only a pos, neg, and trigger input. The coil would not fire without and ignitor, thus this test proves that they must be built in.

 

[Turbo Matty P]

The jacobs wires in-line with your stock ignition. Since it doesn't remove anything, only bypasses it, if there is ever a problem you just revert back to stock set-up. This was on a vehicle with a distributor though...the DIS cars may be a little different. Jacobs is a capacitive discharge system up to 8K rpms.

Coils pump out the fire for the plug and the stock coils are pretty good. I'm going to be upgrading to the miata coils as an experiment since they are direct replacements and a little hotter. If there is any gain to be had from a hotter spark this will show up when I swap them over.

 

[aftershock63]

The jacobs wires in-line with your stock ignition. Since it doesn't remove anything, only bypasses it, if there is ever a problem you just revert back to stock set-up. This was on a vehicle with a distributor though...the DIS cars may be a little different. Jacobs is a capacitive discharge system up to 8K rpms.

I believe i know what you are talking about. I seen somethign like that on the MSD sight. I believe they just came out wiht their's not to long ago, but I forget the name of it. If you head over to the MSD sight and go the to sport compact section you should see it listed there. There is I think 3 different versions fo it (for different # or cylinders) you'll be able to tell which one it is because it doesn't have the normal DIS SCI or any other name like that you have heard before. I did read about it and it specifically did say that it would not work with stock DIS style ignitions. Now according to the product sheet the DIS system can opperate up to 14k rpm but that is neither here nor there because with a rev-limiter at 7k we are never goign to even come close to this mark. With a full head job I would say 9k at the MAX and that would be going extreme I think.

 

[aftershock63]

Coils pump out the fire for the plug and the stock coils are pretty good. I'm going to be upgrading to the miata coils as an experiment since they are direct replacements and a little hotter. If there is any gain to be had from a hotter spark this will show up when I swap them over.

Yes I have heard that our stock coils are pretty good also, but I unfortunatly am in the mindset that any quality after market part is better than stock. Not always true i.e. Porsche Brakes but still.

Do you have any specs on the Miata coils? If it works out good for you I think that it would be a very good upgrade for many members of this board.

I am looking to use a lot of the features that come with this ignition system which would be good for both people running FI and N2O. If/When I get this to work there is a couple of retard features that I would like to use. I think that over all this would be a big help for the people with MP3's since they run such advanced timings, but also with the addition of bigger injectors and a F10 or something or that sort to control them it would make it a lot easyer to run higher boost or more N2O safely. Now it would take some tuning to get it right but I think the advantages would be worth it. I would say while you were at it add a set of cam gears and get them tuned too. All of that together should equal some extra safe power for you don't you think.

 

[Turbo Matty P]

I'm running the MP3 ecu and there is no difference in anything but my gas bill. I also run 94-96 octane. My 1/8th mile times changed none. That to me means nothing was done.

 

[aftershock63]

There will be more updates tonight I have made a lot of phone calls today and drove out to the Summit Store last night so I am still making progress just to let you all know.

 

[aftershock63]

Sorry it is taking me so long to post all of my info but I got the tech guys at Accel to go down to their library and nock the dust off one fo their book and get me the Installation Intructions for there BEI II 39000 Series distributor to see how they get wired uoa and more so to see how the quick conector gets wireed up.

 

[aftershock63]

Does anyone have an ocisiscope or can tell me if our trigger wire is a square points trigger?

 

[YP5 Toronto]

(where the hell is "scubscribe to this thread" button???????)

Great work and effort aftershock63...these are the best types of threads.