Hypertech Max Energy Sport CAI Update Now Available!

[Chris@Hypertech]

Mazdaspeed3/6 cold air intake update released!
Hypertech has now added support to the Max Energy Sport Power Programmer Part #62003 for the 2007-2009 Mazdaspeed3 and 2006-2007 Mazdaspeed6 for aftermarket cold air intakes. Current owners of the Sport programmer can get the FREE update via the Hypertech Tuner Update Software.

The following cold air intakes are supported:
AEM
CorkSport Short Ram
CP-e Xcel Nano
CP-e Xcel
Injen
K&N Typhoon
MAZDASPEED
Takeda Attack

The Hypertech CAI tuning corrects the mass airflow readings to ensure optimal tuning when running these intakes. We also tested the tune with aftermarket cat-back exhaust systems and made a few minor tweaks to the tuning to ensure full benefit of these bolt-ons.

With the air intake, exhaust, and Hypertech tuning, peak HP jumped 46 HP/44 Ft-Lbs from peak to peak over stock. The high RPM horsepower really holds strong, over 85 HP above stock near redline.

See attached dyno chart.

View attachment 2006-2009_Mazdaspeed_3_6_2 3L_Turbo_CAIandExhaust.pdf

*Note: Your tuner must be programmed back to stock in order to update it.

 

[lavoiespeed3]

You don't support the Sri from cobb... goodluck

 

[MSMS3]

Just wondering if you guys are aware of the inconel treated center shaft of the K04 turbo being only 5mm in diameter and the rash of catastrophic turbo failures aftermarket supplies experienced on tunes that held boost at higher than stock boost levels when rpm is sustained above 5,800.

Neuspeed, an aftermarket turbo supplier of this turbo for VW-Audi 1.8L turbo engines had to suspend sales and commission an investigation of the failures. They ultimately determined that the turbo shaft was too small in diameter and when subjected to the heat generated from the combination of high boost and high rpm, the shafts were softening and sagging leading to turbo failure.

I'm a bit concerned that your tune seeks to tune around the intentional closing of the throttle plate above 5,800 rpm and that this would lead to turbo failures.

Maybe I'm being a bit too cautious and maybe members here are prepared to take that chance. Just because you can build power (or at least hold it for short times on the dyno) out to redline, does not mean that this will not be causing damage to the turbo. Just a thought.

Might want to check with Neuspeed on the safety of this tune? They changed their VW-Audi tune for this reason after spending a lot of money to find out why their turbos were failing on their tuning package.

 

[Chris@Hypertech]

Just wondering if you guys are aware of the inconel treated center shaft of the K04 turbo being only 5mm in diameter and the rash of catastrophic turbo failures aftermarket supplies experienced on tunes that held boost at higher than stock boost levels when rpm is sustained above 5,800.

Neuspeed, an aftermarket turbo supplier of this turbo for VW-Audi 1.8L turbo engines had to suspend sales and commission an investigation of the failures. They ultimately determined that the turbo shaft was too small in diameter and when subjected to the heat generated from the combination of high boost and high rpm, the shafts were softening and sagging leading to turbo failure.

I'm a bit concerned that your tune seeks to tune around the intentional closing of the throttle plate above 5,800 rpm and that this would lead to turbo failures.

Maybe I'm being a bit too cautious and maybe members here are prepared to take that chance. Just because you can build power (or at least hold it for short times on the dyno) out to redline, does not mean that this will not be causing damage to the turbo. Just a thought.

Might want to check with Neuspeed on the safety of this tune? They changed their VW-Audi tune for this reason after spending a lot of money to find out why their turbos were failing on their tuning package.

We were a bit concerned about excessive boost and turbo failures as well. We actually did an "overboost" tune to see what the effects of maintaining boost pressure all the way to redline. I have posted some specific info about this over on the Hypertech forum. Here's the link: http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123770357

 

[MSMS3]

So by extending the power curve out beyond 5,800 rpm you are hitting EGT's of a bit over 1500 degrees? My question is why do you think this is safe on the stock tune and why bump it up another "mere" 35 degrees if it's already so close?

Where do you measure EGT's? The most critical place is tapping into the turbo housing itself, rather than upstream or downstream. If you are measuring EGT at the wideband 02 sensor location downstream from the turbo then the temp is cooler than up in the housing. 875 C. or 1600 F. is the point in which the center shaft becomes vulnerable to softening and failure according to the Neuspeed research. See attached.

I'm not validating their research. I don't know. But they are a reputable company with a good history that got in trouble with aggressive tunes on the K04 in VW-Audi applications. They did the right thing and dialed it back and also cautioned against exceeding 5,800 rpm.

Maybe I'm just too cautious. I just think users need to be aware of what is happening when this turbo is pushed out beyond 5,800 rpm with boost any higher than stock values. It's good that you are tapering back out there. I hope that is enough and that it does not encourage aggressive redline use, however.

 

[zaka]

Have you measured EGT after catback installed? I'm curious to know the result...

 

[chubbs]

so cbe do make power?

 

[gtlaw]

I don't know much, but someone on the "other" forum posted a data log with some serious KR using one of these things

 

[Mid_Life_Crisis]

I don't know much, but someone on the "other" forum posted a data log with some serious KR using one of these things

Shouldn't the ECU eventually learn this and correct the LT settings to account for it? In other words, shouldn't this be a short term thing after the initial install that will eventually "self tune" and go away?
What was it doing after a couple of weeks of daily driving?

 

[Mid_Life_Crisis]

Just wondering if you guys are aware of the inconel treated center shaft of the K04 turbo being only 5mm in diameter and the rash of catastrophic turbo failures aftermarket supplies experienced on tunes that held boost at higher than stock boost levels when rpm is sustained above 5,800.

I think the critical word here might be "sustained". For guys who just want more oomph for those fun passing opportunities or onramp blasts, it might be a non-issue. It seems like you would have to be tracking the car (and at a track with a long straightaway) to have sustained redline runs. I don't know about anybody else, but I don't have anyplace to drive where I feel safe trying to see just how fast I can get this thing going. The computer limited top speed is a non-issue for me.

 

[Wurf]

You know.....you could say the same for a completely stock MS3 really. I was thinking about this last weekend.

 

[Chris@Hypertech]

So by extending the power curve out beyond 5,800 rpm you are hitting EGT's of a bit over 1500 degrees? My question is why do you think this is safe on the stock tune and why bump it up another "mere" 35 degrees if it's already so close?

Where do you measure EGT's? The most critical place is tapping into the turbo housing itself, rather than upstream or downstream. If you are measuring EGT at the wideband 02 sensor location downstream from the turbo then the temp is cooler than up in the housing. 875 C. or 1600 F. is the point in which the center shaft becomes vulnerable to softening and failure according to the Neuspeed research. See attached.

I'm not validating their research. I don't know. But they are a reputable company with a good history that got in trouble with aggressive tunes on the K04 in VW-Audi applications. They did the right thing and dialed it back and also cautioned against exceeding 5,800 rpm.

Maybe I'm just too cautious. I just think users need to be aware of what is happening when this turbo is pushed out beyond 5,800 rpm with boost any higher than stock values. It's good that you are tapering back out there. I hope that is enough and that it does not encourage aggressive redline use, however.

Good question, and interesting info.

We measured EGTs in the exhaust manifold just after the head. The temps here should be the closest to the actual cylinder exhaust temps, and the hottest point in the exhaust system. This allowed us to keep an accurate eye on the effects that our tuning changes make to the stress that the engine is subjected to.

Relative to what is referenced from Neuspeeds findings, there are a few things to make note of before addressing the turbocharger longevity.

First, the exhaust gas temperature probes we used for our testing are MUCH smaller and faster reacting than the probes used by most gauges that are commercially sold. The probes we use have a much shorter lifespan, but for testing concerns longevity is not the primary concern. You could expect the typical EGT gauge to read 50-100F lower than the readings we are measuring, during the same test.

Second, the EGTs seen on the road are typically lower than those seen during a dyno pull. This is because of the significant increase in airflow while driving. From our own testing the peak EGT on the road was in the low-to-mid 1400F range rather than 1500F like we saw on the dyno. This is very typical from what weve seen, but thats fine for our testing purposes. If we can accomplish making a great tune on the dyno, which is worst case, then it should do great on the road.

Third, is that exhaust gas temperature and heat energy are not the same thing. A 70mph cruise on a flat and level road may require 50HP, and with an AFR at stoiciometric, the EGTs can sit around 1500F. Compared to a full throttle pull in 4th gear at 250HP and 1500F, the heat energy is much different. Its this heat energy that would cause problems for a turbocharger. An easy way to assess heat energy is EGT at HP and RPM. All three are relative to the heat being pumped out of the engine.

All of these considerations absolutely determined our tuning changes for boost. To further explore the Overboosting_Inefficiency chart (see attached), you will notice that our tunes peak EGT occurs just before 90mph (~5700RPM) and then trails off. Not only do the EGTs decrease, but boost and power are also decreasing. The Tuned_737 run maintained 2psi more boost which increased EGTs by 45F and gained 9HP (all at 100mph). This overboost tune not only shows that the additional boost does not provide expected power gains, but also increases the heat energy dramatically. So, in comparison, our final tune decreases the boost in the higher RPMs which keeps the turbo compressor in its optimal efficiency range without excessive turboshaft speeds, and reduces the heat energy that the turbine is exposed to.

Now, all of this theory sounds great on paper, but our tune was THOROUGHLY tested on our own vehicle long before it was even released for Beta testing. Our car saw over 1100 full throttle dyno pulls, and over 8000 miles of testing which proved our tuning theories correct.

 

[chubbs]

the guy on the other forum who is from mexico reported that kr has lessened and is near nill. he actually posted a dyno that is pretty damn impressive for this little tuner good job hypertech and i like the support you guys are showing.

 

[leadf00t]

To the Op, are your tunes different for each intake listed ?

 

[Mid_Life_Crisis]

Do you have any pulls with just an intake? There are many of us with that as the only power mod, as it has long been believed that a catback exhaust on this car was only good for changing the sound, or at least gained so little power that it wasn't worth the expense.

 

[zaka]

I'm sure there's some gains with CBE, with mine I got +300whp without DP, only TP+CBE, Intake, TMIC and custom tune.
That's why I'd like to know if Hypertech has done some EGT tests with and without CBE?

 

[MSMS3]

I think the critical word here might be "sustained". For guys who just want more oomph for those fun passing opportunities or onramp blasts, it might be a non-issue. It seems like you would have to be tracking the car (and at a track with a long straightaway) to have sustained redline runs. I don't know about anybody else, but I don't have anyplace to drive where I feel safe trying to see just how fast I can get this thing going. The computer limited top speed is a non-issue for me.

Good point. But I wonder if the owners of the Audis with failed K04's on Neuspeed's tune drove their cars any differently than most members here. Neuspeed is a US company inporting K04's and selling a custom ECU tune to go with them for the American VW-Audi market. We are not talking about cars driven on the German Autobahn.

I do, however, appreciate Chris's thoughtful reply indicating how and where they measured EGT and the measures they took to keep temps down. I am concerned that measuring EGT's in the manifold pre-turbo housing will understate turbo housing heat, because additional heat is generated by the turbo itself from the compression of air, especially when the turbo starts trying to push more air through the scroll than it can flow. That heat gets added to the EGT and would show up in the eventual heat soak temp of the center shaft. Just a thought.

Call me a skeptic, but pushing this turbo beyond its thermal efficiency which seems to max out at 5,800 rpm, especially when boosting above stock levels seems like an invitation for turbo failure. But, to be balanced, we are not hearing (at least yet) of a lot of K04 turbo center shaft failures on this or other forums on highly tuned cars.

 

[Chris@Hypertech]

Good point. But I wonder if the owners of the Audis with failed K04's on Neuspeed's tune drove their cars any differently than most members here. Neuspeed is a US company inporting K04's and selling a custom ECU tune to go with them for the American VW-Audi market. We are not talking about cars driven on the German Autobahn.

I do, however, appreciate Chris's thoughtful reply indicating how and where they measured EGT and the measures they took to keep temps down. I am concerned that measuring EGT's in the manifold pre-turbo housing will understate turbo housing heat, because additional heat is generated by the turbo itself from the compression of air, especially when the turbo starts trying to push more air through the scroll than it can flow. That heat gets added to the EGT and would show up in the eventual heat soak temp of the center shaft. Just a thought.

Call me a skeptic, but pushing this turbo beyond its thermal efficiency which seems to max out at 5,800 rpm, especially when boosting above stock levels seems like an invitation for turbo failure. But, to be balanced, we are not hearing (at least yet) of a lot of K04 turbo center shaft failures on this or other forums on highly tuned cars.

You are correct about the turbo efficiency, and we tested to find the peak efficiency of the factory turbo. The HP curve with our tune holds at roughly 250HP form 5000 RPM to 6000 RPM, and then trails off quickly. The turbo reaches its peak efficiency and holds there for roughly 1000 RPM. Instead of pushing the airflow from the turbo in the higher RPM's by holding the boost steady, we had to roll it off to keep from superheating the air and overspinning the turbo.

Maintaining boost out to redline would make an additional 10-20 HP, but at the cost of 200 deg more EGT. So we didn't do that.

 

[8.5MS3]

Maintaining boost out to redline would make an additional 10-20 HP, but at the cost of 200 deg more EGT. So we didn't do that.

Statements like this are what separate good tuners from bad ones. Looking forward to what you guys come out with.

 

[Chris@Hypertech]

To the Op, are your tunes different for each intake listed ?

There is a specific MAF correction for each intake listed. Because our tuning maintains an accurate engine model in the calibration, the gains are optimized with the addition of air intakes, exhaust systems, etc, without having to tune for each specific modification. The additional power provided by the added airflow is immediately accounted for by the mass air calculations, and the tuning is automatically adjusted to maintain the proper controls with the additional power.