Road Salt
- Thread starter Lbear
- Start date
Caltrans uses plenty of salt on the mountain pass highways, primarily as a brine applied before forecasted storms hit:
http://www.dot.ca.gov/hq/paffairs/news/pressrel/14pr019.htm
Road brine is typically applied as a preventative measure and is NOT worse than rock salt because it is applied at lower rates. Sure, spaying it directly on your car would be bad but that's not how it is used. Rock salt is the biggest corrosion problem for vehicles because the salt "rocks" are kicked up and can settle on top of mufflers, suspension arms, leaf springs, etc. where they slowly dissolve and coat the undercarriage with a more concentrated solution of sodium chloride than would ever happen with typical brine applications.
Washington State DOT uses some salt brine but the highway I travel most frequently in the winter is typically pre-treated with a magnesium chloride solution which is less corrosive than sodium chloride (salt). It works very well at preventing the problematic frost and black ice but, when it snows 3"/hour the only thing that works is manual removal with plows and blowers.
I don't live in Washington state, I live in eastern Pa., and in my town it's always being applied before a possible storm. The municipalities around here pretty much soak the roads with it even if they think bad weather is coming. In that regard, it is much worse than road salt because the solution splashes up in the crevices of what's underneath the car. Stuff takes a long time to dry when applied on the roads. Garages around here pretty much agree it's the worse thing you can drive your car through.
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boandlkramer
US Specs in Europe
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- '17 CX-5 GT AWD; '18 BMW X3
Much better then Colorado-DOT...pea gravel.....I knew the Safeglass guys pretty well, as did my Insurance adjusters.
No doubt, all salt is bad for your car, particularly so when not rinsed off afterwards. And it does sound like they are over-applying the brine solution - it shouldn't puddle, it should just evenly coat the surface of the road. I'm just saying, properly applied, brine is less contaminating than rock salt (and it is so much more effective it is applied at 1/2-1/3 the rate of rock salt (in terms of sodium chloride per mile). Once the storm has hit and 1/4" has accumulated on the road, it is too late to use brine because it will make the roads even more hazardous by encouraging icing. After the snow starts to build up, most places in the U.S. resort to granular de-icers (of which rock salt is the most damaging) and manual removal. The pre-treatment with either salt brine or the less corrosive and even more effective magnesium chloride solution makes manual removal much more effective because it reduces icing after plowing and reduces the amount of sand/gravel that must be applied after plowing.
Magnesium chloride brine is more effective, less corrosive to metals and more environmentally friendly compared to salt brine (and especially rock salt). It costs about twice as much per mile treated. To save money, WSDOT uses salt brine in areas where it's environmental impact is minimal and traffic is lighter and magnesium chloride solution near salmon streams and other more fragile environments. If you are worried about corrosion on your vehicle, you might lobby your local governments to switch to products that are more friendly to metals and the local environment. It's a small additional expense that probably pays for itself in terms of prevented corrosion. Yes, it's still corrosive and should be thoroughly rinsed afterwards but, it is less damaging than either rock salt or even properly applied salt brine.
Washington State DOT takes snow removal seriously and has funded several studies on various related topics when they found existing scientific information to be lacking (in terms of being able to develop sensible and effective maintenance strategies). Topics include corrosiveness testing of various de-icers combined with corrosion protection products. They have also measured the effectiveness of several organic de-icers made with various combinations of agricultural waste products.
I know several of the guys that are responsible for the local mountain highway (including the senior guy that just retired after decades of keeping this highway open through the worst winter storms imaginable). It's not a job to be taken lightly and testing using scientific methods coupled with accurate weather forecasting and local knowledge of specific problem areas is the way to optimize operations, keeping costs low and results high. This works better than the "good ol' boy" method of simply dumping excess brine on your problem.
Well I'm screwed then! Although so far this Wisconsin winter has been anything but normal. It was 60 degrees the other day!!!! So maybe there won't be much salt put down
From the Valugard website:
"New test methodology, SAE J2334, shows that MAGNESIUM CHLORIDE is more corrosive than salt.
Corrosion is a bigger problem than ever before because of changes in the way DOT’s now de-ice the roads and highways. Over the past 15 years, it is estimated that the costs associated with corrosion caused by anti-icing chemicals have increased more than tenfold.
$30,000,000,000! is the amount that the Federal Highway Administration estimates that corrosion costs the nation’s transportation industry. A lot of this is due to the increased use of MAGNESIUM CHLORIDE.
Over 38 states are currently using some sort of MgCI or CaCl to de-ice their roads.
Magnesium Chloride attracts moisture from the air making it more aggressive than salt because it is active even when “dry”.
One engineer states “MAGNESIUM CHLORIDE is basically ‘liquid rust’. It clings to everything and it attracts moisture – and it does not wash off easily”.
Tractors and trailers can be harmed even more when they drive through counties using different de-icers. Picking up all three chloride salts – calcium, magnesium and sodium – makes corrosion even worse.
The downside to MAGNESIUM CHLORIDE and CALCIUM CHLORIDE as de-icing agents are varied and serious in terms of the potential increase in maintenance time and costs. State and local DOT’s may apply these chemicals prior to any snowfall, increasing the likelihood and degree of exposure to cars, trucks, and trailers. These materials are especially destructive because of their abiliity to cling to the underbody of a vehicle and re-crystalize as they slowly dry out. By nature they attract and absorb moisture from the surrounding environment, keeping them in a semi-solution state for extended periods of time, which multiplies their corrosiveness.
In terms of trailers, road chemicals may affect a variety of components: structural members, suspensions, support gear, and top and bottom rails, to name a few."
"New test methodology, SAE J2334, shows that MAGNESIUM CHLORIDE is more corrosive than salt.
Corrosion is a bigger problem than ever before because of changes in the way DOT’s now de-ice the roads and highways. Over the past 15 years, it is estimated that the costs associated with corrosion caused by anti-icing chemicals have increased more than tenfold.
$30,000,000,000! is the amount that the Federal Highway Administration estimates that corrosion costs the nation’s transportation industry. A lot of this is due to the increased use of MAGNESIUM CHLORIDE.
Over 38 states are currently using some sort of MgCI or CaCl to de-ice their roads.
Magnesium Chloride attracts moisture from the air making it more aggressive than salt because it is active even when “dry”.
One engineer states “MAGNESIUM CHLORIDE is basically ‘liquid rust’. It clings to everything and it attracts moisture – and it does not wash off easily”.
Tractors and trailers can be harmed even more when they drive through counties using different de-icers. Picking up all three chloride salts – calcium, magnesium and sodium – makes corrosion even worse.
The downside to MAGNESIUM CHLORIDE and CALCIUM CHLORIDE as de-icing agents are varied and serious in terms of the potential increase in maintenance time and costs. State and local DOT’s may apply these chemicals prior to any snowfall, increasing the likelihood and degree of exposure to cars, trucks, and trailers. These materials are especially destructive because of their abiliity to cling to the underbody of a vehicle and re-crystalize as they slowly dry out. By nature they attract and absorb moisture from the surrounding environment, keeping them in a semi-solution state for extended periods of time, which multiplies their corrosiveness.
In terms of trailers, road chemicals may affect a variety of components: structural members, suspensions, support gear, and top and bottom rails, to name a few."
It's a big money-maintenence concern for the trucking industry, eats away at brake components, suspension, trailers, exhaust, etc. while driving through states that started using this stuff (mainly upper eastern seaboard). VW did a study a few years back because they were getting an unusually high amount of rust claims when brine became the prevalent road treatment in Europe in the early 2000s. Damned if you do and damned if you don't. I know I don't like NOT seeing the roads treated before a storm. Necessary evil.
Kinghardcor
Member
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- 2016 Mazda CX5 GT with Tech
I maintain 4 large buildings on several acres with a few thousand feet of walkways. I was informed by corporate last week that we must not use Magnesium Chloride under any circumstances anymore as it's the worst de-icer to use. Of course this was a few weeks AFTER I restocked my salt supply for the property but fortunately I am OK with what I have.
As far as roads go I hate how over salted they are. Sometimes it seems like there is more salt put down than the snow total. They're predicting a dusting of snow? Throw down an inch of salt!
I wish they would allow people to learn how to drive in snow.
One of my major concerns when buying this car was all the under body covers. I'm certain they help the car slip through the air better but I'm wondering if salty water and slush doesn't get through and how possible it is to clean it thoroughly.
As far as roads go I hate how over salted they are. Sometimes it seems like there is more salt put down than the snow total. They're predicting a dusting of snow? Throw down an inch of salt!
I wish they would allow people to learn how to drive in snow.
One of my major concerns when buying this car was all the under body covers. I'm certain they help the car slip through the air better but I'm wondering if salty water and slush doesn't get through and how possible it is to clean it thoroughly.
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- 2015 CX-5 Touring 2.5L FWD
A "trick" I heard on motor-week was to take a lawn sprinkler, one of the more flat kind, and run it under each corner of your car's undercarriage in the spring after the bad weather is gone. Let it run 10 to 15 minutes on each corner under the car, to give the undercarriage a continuous flushing of fresh water. Didn't sound like a bad idea, I haven't actually tried it myself yet.
A number of the name brand pressure washer companies have undercarriage attachments for their units and if you do a search online you'll find a number of other units available that just attach to the hose end. I just built my own for a few bucks with PVC and a brass hose connector from Home Depot. Just takes few minutes to hook it up and give the undercarriage a good rinsing.
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Don't turn it on until it's under the car.
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Don't turn it on until it's under the car.
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- San Antonio, Texas
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- '15 CX-5 Miata AWD
A number of the name brand pressure washer companies have undercarriage attachments for their units and if you do a search online you'll find a number of other units available that just attach to the hose end. I just built my own for a few bucks with PVC and a brass hose connector from Home Depot. Just takes few minutes to hook it up and give the undercarriage a good rinsing.
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Don't turn it on until it's under the car.
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That's a damn good idea... if you were to connect one of those soap dispensers to it you could add a basic solution (baking soda, dolopril limestone, or granular gypsum) to actually neutralize the salt mixture.. for any that doesn't wipe away. FWIW, the plastic is very easy to move; 10mm bolts and push pins are what hold them on.
Whether the de-icer is sodium chloride, magnesium chloride or calcium chloride, you do not want a basic solution to wash it away, you want a mild acid! A basic solution can react with the chloride ions and make them less soluble and much more difficult to wash away.
