Dealer unwilling to do TSB without reproducing?

M

markii

Member
Hello,

I've had the jerking car between 1500-2500RPM(usually when cold and starting, etc) problem for quite a while now. So finally when taking the car in for a bunch of service I described the problem and mentioned TSB 01-008/08. So after dropping the car off - the service rep calls back quickly and starts asking questions about how to reproduce it. Well naturally - since the problem usually only happens a couple of times a month (over course of 9 cooler months) - I pretty much told the guy you are not going to be able to reproduce it. Since they can't reproduce it - they said they would not do the work. I am dumbfounded since this is a known problem - I do consider it somewhat dangerous as the jerking could cause my foot to come off the clutch and stall the vehicle.

Is this common? I gave a quick call to a 1-800 number for mazda customer support - they were not much help in trying to get the dealer to tackle this problem.

I did get rude on the phone - and they are not doing any more work on the car. (pretty dumb on their part since I bought 2 mazdas there, get service done there, and am likely a mazda guy for life. I plan on calling another dealer - so hopefully that goes better.

Any other thoughts on how I could get the dealer to do the work? I still do like them.
 
Mine was not "reproduce-able" either and this is what I did:

  • Printed it and told them it has not happened badly but feels something is wrong which has never happened on my 08
  • It is just a PCM update, so I want to make sure I had the latest one (i.e. MPGs, smoothness, safety, etc.)

My 2 cents:
  • Print it and show it to them, then tell them "this is what its happening, period"
  • Politely request them to talk to the dealership Manager, as it is critical to you and your family (or something like that). That has worked for me. I told them I don't want my wife to be in an accident because of this issue. I want to continue buying Mazdas in the future, so keep the good work and do it, it does not have a counter-effect :D
 
Last edited:
Thanks for the advice - although apparently I was ruder than I thought on the phone today - because I have been banned from getting any car serviced at this dealership!!

I do feel bad for being rude on the phone - no excuse for that - I was quite upset they were point blank telling me they would not do the work without reproducing and did raise my voice/was not friendly. But I think what did it was after they said they were not going to fix the TSB I told them "I don't know if I want you touching my car for the rest of the repairs" At that point they asked me to come get the car - I but did contact them later to do the rest of the work - but at that point I was banned. Did apologize to the guy I as rude to when I picked the car up.

Still miffed -like mentioned above - it was only a computer update. Oh well - will try the other dealer close by - and make sure I don't burn any bridges!
 
Sometime to diagnose a problem they have to see it for themselves, could you leave the car at the dealership overnight, so the next morning the tech can cold start the car to see if the problem occurs with them?
 
you cant fix a problem if you cant reproduce it. the dealer is covering their ass. basically if that pcm reprogram didn't work, and you go back, they're working for free thereafter to fix the problem. they want to fix it right the first time.
 
Reyan said:
Sometime to diagnose a problem they have to see it for themselves, could you leave the car at the dealership overnight, so the next morning the tech can cold start the car to see if the problem occurs with them?
Click to expand...

It is way too erratic. It might happen only a month - waste of my time and dealer's time to try to reproduce (unless they want to give me a loaner for the month). And what will they find when the reproduce? There are no codes. I thought I read an account where someone spent months working with service dept trying to get this fixed. Why would the service dept not just spend 30 minutes applying the update as specified by the TSB that describes the problem?
 
hoindawall said:
you cant fix a problem if you cant reproduce it. the dealer is covering their ass. basically if that pcm reprogram didn't work, and you go back, they're working for free thereafter to fix the problem. they want to fix it right the first time.
Click to expand...

Not sure I am following - of course you can fix a problem without reproducing it. When there is a simple, zero risk (or close to it), documented solution to the problem(pcm reprogram) - if you care about fixing the problem you do the pcm reprogram.

If you don't want to fix the problem - then you hide behind the "must be able to reproduce even though there is an documented solution" mantra.

Of course at some point someone had to have reproduced the problem - but that has already been done. It is well known how intermittent this problem is - and I can't imagine anyone in their right mind with complete knowledge of this issue would waste a second trying to reproduce before doing the work according to TSB.
 
markii said:
Not sure I am following - of course you can fix a problem without reproducing it. When there is a simple, zero risk (or close to it), documented solution to the problem(pcm reprogram) - if you care about fixing the problem you do the pcm reprogram.

If you don't want to fix the problem - then you hide behind the "must be able to reproduce even though there is an documented solution" mantra.

Of course at some point someone had to have reproduced the problem - but that has already been done. It is well known how intermittent this problem is - and I can't imagine anyone in their right mind with complete knowledge of this issue would waste a second trying to reproduce before doing the work according to TSB.
Click to expand...

because it could be a totally different problem from the tsb. from reproducing the problem themselves, they can figure out when it happens, what the circumstances are, and pinpoint the problem.
 
hoindawall said:
because it could be a totally different problem from the tsb. from reproducing the problem themselves, they can figure out when it happens, what the circumstances are, and pinpoint the problem.
Click to expand...


OK - so if the problem only happens around 2 day a month(for a 1/2 second stumbling power loss) - what does the dealer do? I can't give my car up for a few weeks - and I doubt the dealer will give me a loaner for a few weeks. Even if that could happen - are they actually going to have someone drive it around for 15-20 minutes a day in different environments trying to narrow in on what the problem is?

This is just my though process though - I do appreciate the responses and can better see why I was in conflict when talking to the dealer. The problem is just so intermittent though.
 
Before going to another dealer, call other dealer service dept. and talk to them about the problem, maybe one of them may have experience with that problem, I understand some of your fustration, some service writers at my job are idiots in customer relations.
 
My dealer initially didn't want to do the TSB as they couldn't reproduce it. Told me that they code attach the computer and see what the code says, but if there was no code then they would charge me $65. I politely told them that was completely unacceptable and they could expect me to rethink my service provider. Half an hour later I got a call that they went ahead did the computer search and found the problem code, did a reflash and I haven't had the problem since.

The trick is to stay calm and polite. Rudeness only gets you enemies and not friends.
 
most dealers will not, or at least should not be attempting to fix a problem
they cant reproduce

it is only opening themselves up to more problems in the future and possible comebacks which is not good when your working flat rate when you have to work on the car again....for free
 
Mazda5wannabe said:
The trick is to stay calm and polite. Rudeness only gets you enemies and not friends.
Click to expand...

Yeah - that was a big mistake on my part - They had two times to discuss the problem (when I called and made appointment and described problem/mentioned TSB) and when I dropped the car off for service. For some reason I assumed it was a done deal they were going to do the work as described by the TSB. Then they call me back at a really bad time for me -- and well that is that.
 
protege_kid said:
most dealers will not, or at least should not be attempting to fix a problem
they cant reproduce

it is only opening themselves up to more problems in the future and possible comebacks which is not good when your working flat rate when you have to work on the car again....for free
Click to expand...

Understand this is true for most issues - but this case is clearly different. I think any dealer with knowledge of this problem and takes the above stance doesn't really care about the customer. I had a less than satisfactory experience with that service dept before - and based on them outright banning me from getting vehicles serviced there - well keeping me as a customer is no loss for them, and no loss form me either.

I am hopeful the other local dealer will be willing to do the work, and they will get my business in the future - even if they don't fix the problem. Which is sort of ashamed - I really like purchasing my previous 2 mazdas at the problematic dealer. Fortunately I still love my 5 and mazda in general.

Oh well - will stop posting on this topic. Thanks for all the feedback
 
protege_kid said:
most dealers will not, or at least should not be attempting to fix a problem they cant reproduce

it is only opening themselves up to more problems in the future and possible comebacks which is not good when your working flat rate when you have to work on the car again....for free
Click to expand...

That's just not true. Many (most?) TSBs begin with language almost identical to:
"Customer complains of..." and then describe the intermittent symptoms. From there they sometimes have different courses of action based upon whether the dealership can immediately reproduce the problem vs. not, but often they just say to do x, y, and z based on the customer complaint. Nobody's covering themselves for anything if they have customer complaints which match a known TSB and refuse to do the work.
 
This dealer got a name? If they're local to me I might avoid buying a Mazda6 from them. But if you flipped out, I guess you got it coming.

STILL, if a customer has a complaint and the dealer is too ignorant or lazy to look up the TSB, then they're pretty lousy to begin with. Where on a TSB does it say the dealer has to reproduce the problem? You shouldn't have to do their job for them on something they should already be aware of.
 
As I understand it the TSB says on it that Mazda will not pay for additional diagnostic time for this issue. I assume it is because they have given you the answer to the problem.
 
There isn't any diagnostics involved. Service should verify the vehicle falls within the application of the TSB, do the 15 minutes of work, and move on. If the problem persists, the shop needs to investigate the problem despite the new software load.

It ain't rocket science. :D
 
bulwnkl said:
That's just not true. Many (most?) TSBs begin with language almost identical to:
"Customer complains of..." and then describe the intermittent symptoms. From there they sometimes have different courses of action based upon whether the dealership can immediately reproduce the problem vs. not, but often they just say to do x, y, and z based on the customer complaint. Nobody's covering themselves for anything if they have customer complaints which match a known TSB and refuse to do the work.
Click to expand...

exactly! If the posters here would read the TSBs themselves it clearly states in the beginning if the customer is having this symptom... do this.... etc. When I had the TSB done on ours, the dealer was wary over the phone... so I printed it out and highlighted the above text and showed it to them. Its black and white people there isn't a gray area on this so I don't see the need for a big ol thread on it. Especially since there is already a thread about this.
 
true....ahhh its so hard working both way! im im a auto tech school and they try and teach us to always cover your ass but at the same being on the other side of things you just need to tell the shop how its gotta be sometimes

one thing you can always do is go above there head untill you get what your looking for

ex: service writers giving you a hard time go to to the service manager or ask to speak to the owner

if all else fails, march into the showrroom on the busyest possible day and ask who you can complain about the service department to

nothings worse than a dealerships potential customers hearing first hand how a persont feels about the service department (this works iv tried!)
 
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