ECU tuning??

This will fall under the 'NOOB' strikes again catagory, so bear with me please:
The following is more about opening a discussion for those of us that don't know anything vs. those of you that do.

Of the options available for tuning our MS3/6's ecu's, which are considered Standalone and which are Piggybacks. Yes I know one or two of them are self-explainatory but in reading the latest (march) issue of SuperStreet there is an article by Eric Hsu that I found very interesting and he brought up a point about Piggybacks vs. Standalone tuning options. He was posed the following question:

What is the singular aftermarket product that makes the most power?

His answer:
"ECU/ECU tuning. Most don't realize that tuning is the beginning and everything. I'm not talking about piggybacks either. People, piggybacks are f*@$ing jokes. Take them off your car and sell them to all the cheap-asses who buy crap from eBay. Always use a standalone or have the factory ECU ROM-tuned."

Yes, I know, I read too much. Just thought this might be a topic a few of you would comment on, to enlighten the rest of us. I'm just curious what some of you think is all.

Eric Hsu appears to have a highly regarded background in the tuner cummunity. He was a chief Engineer at A'PEXi, before being placed in charge of parts developement at Cosworth.

PS: To CP-E and the XEDE groups who are working their asses off trying to get us something, I AM NOT knocking anything you guys are doing or will do in the future. I am just a trying to learn and I get these WHAT IF & WHAT ABOUT THIS scenarios in my head and must release them, otherwise................I don't know maybe my head would explode......lol

cpe and xede are piggybacks or interceptors as they like to call them, cobb will tune the factory ecu.

Yea. I think I understand what the difference is physically in the two. Direct access is as it says, and the piggyback is an interface that recieves the signal and alters it to send it elsewhere. So what is the difference besides physical arrangement? I could use some info here as well. Dread, why the COBB and no piggyback for you?

dread said:

cpe and xede are piggybacks or interceptors as they like to call them, cobb will tune the factory ecu.

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True, but Cobb will not be out for a long time. The only option just around the corner will be the piggyback.

Okay, so I'm guessing the main reason for piggybacks at this point, is that they are easier to get to market sooner. I was hoping someone from CP-E or XEDE would comment tho.
Again, In no way, am I knocking the products that are just around the corner from those 2 companies. I have plans at this time to purchase the product CP-E is going to release soon along with the FMIC. I am just trying to figure out what the possible implications are long term with going Piggyback or waiting for a Standalone tuning product.(shrug)

OK first off that guy is an idiot. I don't care if he's the king of speed he should of not made a generalized comment like that in a magazine that reaches such a wide array of tuning audience. I agree standalones are THE way to go if you have a track/race setup, but to call them garbage is a little overboard in my opinion. Klip i'll try to keep my response below fairly easy, so if anything doesn't make sense feel free to pm me for clarification.

Standalones: These are essentially COMPLETE engine computers. They completely replace the stock ecu.

Pros: THe offer unlimited control of the engine. 99% of these interface through a laptop/computer and allow the user to set/change/control EVERYTHING about the engine. From timing, boost limits, to fuel trims, even to changing what the factory gauges do(for example on DSMs a standalone will turn the "boost" gauge into a functional a/f gauge).

Cons: Require an advanced degree of tuning knowledge. These units need to have every single thing programmed into it by the user. Some models offer an advanced learning feature which allows the user to set the base settings and the ecu learns the rest from trial dyno runs with little input from the user. Most systems also come with vehicle support which has things such as base setting maps, suggestions, and even troubleshooting, but dont let that fool you they still require a ton of initial setup work. Also for a quality system plan on paying $1K or more once all is said and done.

Use Rec: Advanced engine setups, such as aftermarket turbos/superchargers, Track cars, road racing cars with highly modified chassis and/or engine setups. Generally speaking these units are used for non street legal cars(though there are people who do use them for street setups).

Examples: Microtech, aem, Megasquirt, etc.
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Piggy-Backs: These units retain the factory ecu and merely modify the signal it receivers from certain inputs depending on the type of piggy back.

Pros: Very easy to setup in most cases. Usually only required the cutting/splices of 3-8 wires and can usually be installed in a few hours and tuned on the street. These units are very affordable and range from $100 - $700

Cons: These units "trick" the ecu into seeing false/modified signals. This means if you go beyond the "normal" bounds some ECUs will recognize this and learn their way around the piggyback. Additionally most piggybacks only allow for the control of a few inputs..ie boost, timing and fuel, which limits how much tuning you can do safely.

Usage Rec: Mild to moderately modified vehicles that are used mostly for daily driving and may see a few track sessions a month. An example setup would include an engine with basic bolt-ons, upgraded turbo and injectors 50% larger than stock. These system are appropriate for 90% of the vehicles you see on the street.

Examples: Apexi AFC, xede, cpe, our afc, etc...
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Programmers/Chips: These kind of bridge the gap between the other two. Here you use a controller that plugs in through the obdII port or install a customer eprom chip.

Pros: Offer a little more tunability and directly change the settings of the ecu, instead of altering the signals from the inputs. Usually these are also fairly cheap ranging from $300-$900. While not offering all the control of a standalone, they do offer more options than the standard piggyback units.

Cons: With chips(with the exception of flash setups) in order to change any of the settings you need to have a new chip burned/installed. In addition most of the time you need to have a socket soldered to your ecu to accept the eprom chips. Lower end programmers will often only display 1 or 2 data streams at a time, though the higher end models do have the ability to log and display multiple inputs. Some ECUs require very expensive programmers, such as Jeeps which require a $3500 DRB3/DRB4 to make ecu changes.

Usage Rec: Genearlly for mild to moderate tunes as with the piggyback, as stated in the pros, these just offfer the user a little more tuning power.

Examples: Cobb, Bully dog systems, Superchips(eprom division), and all those chips you see for DSMs and older GM vehicles.

I did this rather fast, so if anyone notices errors or omissions please let me know so I can make sure this post has correct info. I know CPE is very busy at the moment, so it make take them a little while to chime in. They're always very helpful though so I'm sure if you wanted to pm them they would be more than happy to explain anything about their products to you.

DSMConvert said:

*snip*

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I literally couldn't have said it better myself (rei)


Jordan

Thanks DSM, that's what I was looking for........an explaination.

And to anyone (CP-E or XEDE, especially) I, in no way was trying to disrespect your hard work in getting us something to use for our cars. As stated I am most likely going to buy the CP-E tuner/piggyback system as soon as its released.

Since purchasing this car back in NOV 06, I have been bitten by this car tuning bug, that you all suffer from. Not coming from a mechanical background other than the occassional oil change, brake pad install etc. etc. very low grade stuff, compared to some of you. I have been reading my arse off trying to get a handle on all the knowledge thats needed to understand and be able to do alot of this stuff myself. Alas, the more I read the more trouble I may stir up.

It was not my intention to do so and DSM's oratory on the subject cleared up all my questions.

Thanks again, I really enjoy this forum guys.
Stetson

Something else I wanted to confirm please. I was talking to a local mechanic here in nashville who said Standalone tuning options would need tuning much more frequently than a Piggyback system. Things like the change of season, summer to winter or cold & hot weather changes would require a different tune with the Standalone options. Can anyone confirm and/or elaborate on this?

I was under the impression that with a system such as CP-E's piggyback that we would have the option of downloading some basic maps ie: a 1)performance map based on the mods I have on my car and maybe an 2)economy map for max. mileage true or false?

Klip said:

Something else I wanted to confirm please. I was talking to a local mechanic here in nashville who said Standalone tuning options would need tuning much more frequently than a Piggyback system. Things like the change of season, summer to winter or cold & hot weather changes would require a different tune with the Standalone options. Can anyone confirm and/or elaborate on this?

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he is making gross generalizations as was the first person you quoted for different reasons. there are many different kinds of piggybacks and not all of them will function the same way. there are some systems marketed as standalones that function similarly to certain piggybacks. it can be both a disservice or ascribing false praise to a given unit to categorize as either without talking about the benefits of it in great detail. there are simply too many variables and capabilities varying from unit to unit to waste time pigeonholing them.

example, for the protege the haltech e6x and microtech are considered "standalone" systems because they control pretty much everything realted to running the car and tuning the engine. however, it cannot function without keeping the stock ECU installed in-line so by definition its a "piggyback." the unichip is a plug and play solution which uses its own maps in place of the the ECUs, but its functionality is honestly very limited unless you have really basic mods. the haltech f10x is fuel only so some people consider it a "piggyback" for this car because the assumption is that a piggyback has less functionality than a standalone. however it uses its own map over the stock ECU and does operate on an interceptor style setup. just because a system is labelled as a piggyback does not make it less capable than a system labelled standalone, and just because two systems are labelled as one or the other does not mean they operate the same, sometimes not even remotely the same. unichip may be plug and play whereas microtech requires alot of cutting/splicing/wiring, but i can tell you which system is alot more flexible and makes alot more power.

if you have a "standalone" that is not capable of adjusting for air temps, air density, water temps, and other weather related factors i'd say you own pretty poor engine management system. every "piggyback" system i've owned has been capable of doing that and then some.

the difficulty in programming a true standalone that takes the place of the stock ECU is that the user has to program in correction factors for variables like weather conditions, engine load, electrical load, elevation, coolant temps and sometimes really inane variables that will have you asking yourself, "does that really even matter?" the correction factor then applies itself to the base map you have written when it sees that condition occur. Example - if its 10 degrees outside the ECU will add or subtract that percentage of fuel (and/or timing) to the base map to compensate for that change. whats nice is the range of tunability you have over the entire car and the flexibility to adjust for future mods that is hard to beat.

i could go on and on but things have been said here already which are pretty much in line with what i believe. suffice to say, there is plenty of bias and misinformation out there about engine management systems and all too often people get carried away into pissing matches over what may or may not be good/better/best. to lump all piggybacks into the "ebay chip" category is so brainless i am surprised a person of that stature from Apexi could make that remark. perhaps its because Apexi's own piggybacks aren't all that great? (drinks)

i've seen people have great success with systems called piggyback and lousy failures with ones call standalone. its better and more worth ones time to investigate the advantages and shortcomings of every option in great detail and decide which one works better for thier application. its really not a black/white equation.

Thank you Captain KRM, I'll chalk my posting this up to:

"DUDE YOUR READING TOO MUCH INTO THIS"

And again to Jordan @CP-E and The XEDE folks, my apologies if I threw any doubt out here concerning your products, it was not my intention to do so.

just look at it like this; there are going to be good standalones and bad ones. there are going to be good piggybacks and bad ones. there are going to be ones that work great on some cars and poor on others. thats really just the way it is and it has to be handled on a case by case basis.

there is no need to apologize. the only time i remotely get upset when people talk about the XEDE is when they make statements about it that they are obviously uninformed about, false statements about its capabilities when they have not even seen it in action, or just shamelessly attack it without basis. if you want to try the system and/or see what it can and can't do and then thrash it based on your experience it, by all means do so. this goes for any product on the market, honestly. i've been in the industry going on five years now and 90% of what i hear about a product amounts to "my buddy/my shop told me that this product is no good so it must be no good," with no amount of evidence to show otherwise. i'm open minded and pretty thick skinned so i can handle criticism, well founded or otherwise.

heck people picked apart our baseline dynos as being too low and yet Cobb's own dynos were as low or lower than ours

Captain KRM P5 said:

heck people picked apart our baseline dynos as being too low and yet Cobb's own dynos were as low or lower than ours

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Baseline , Pre xede?

No CEL's? Cruise control still work? No drive-by-wire throttle issues? Every installation require a dyno tune to run smoothly (not just optimal performance)? Gotta cut the factory ECU wiring to wire it in? Can you even get the factory ECU plugs? Some of these are issues that happened with the Interceptor-X (Microtech PnP "standback") on the RX-8.

I'm not necesarily saying that Cobb is the best or whatever. Rather what I am trying to say is that modern ECU's are more complex and controlling than every before... and only will become moreso. The ECU's themselves have become quite powerful as well. In the domestic tuning world... just about everyone is using ECU flash tuning. This has made it easy for companies like Saleen, Kenne Bell, Steeda, and more to offer completely bolt-on S/C packages with pre-programmed flashes... absolutely no dyno tuning required (actually they state that it will void the warranty if you do!) and in the case of Saleen... you can even keep your factory warranty. Actually... not even just the domestics, but the Germans are primarily flash tuners these days as well.

There's a place for standalones of course. But on a brand new street-driven daily driver...

Klip said:

Something else I wanted to confirm please. I was talking to a local mechanic here in nashville who said Standalone tuning options would need tuning much more frequently than a Piggyback system. Things like the change of season, summer to winter or cold & hot weather changes would require a different tune with the Standalone options. Can anyone confirm and/or elaborate on this?

I was under the impression that with a system such as CP-E's piggyback that we would have the option of downloading some basic maps ie: a 1)performance map based on the mods I have on my car and maybe an 2)economy map for max. mileage true or false?

Click to expand...

I run a Microtech on my car and I would completely disagree with the statement that you need to constantly tune it. Once tuned it is there. I would say that piggybacks would have more tuning required due to the ability of the stock ecu to learn. NOTE: standalones require FAR more tuning initially than a piggyback, but the control is incredible. I ran with a piggyback for years and the standalone is SO much better (after all the initial work). Since Microtech's work on the 2.3 non-turbo engines, the jump to the speed motors isn't much (I think they already know how to do it). Thus, you'd hardly be starting from scratch since that work was already done.

Like all the other posts, I'm not knocking other products, but I'm sick of seeing people say that standalones are too much work, or don't work, or won't work in hot and cold. It is BS. My car was starting when the temp was well below zero F and it runs flawlessly the rest of the time too. Props to NSN Motorsports for doing the work that got the Microtech to that point. If they only had more time the MS3 and MS6 would be running them too!

But I would agree that ECU flashes are probably the best - why reinvent the wheel?

Klip said:

This will fall under the 'NOOB' strikes again catagory, so bear with me please:
The following is more about opening a discussion for those of us that don't know anything vs. those of you that do.

Of the options available for tuning our MS3/6's ecu's, which are considered Standalone and which are Piggybacks. Yes I know one or two of them are self-explainatory but in reading the latest (march) issue of SuperStreet there is an article by Eric Hsu that I found very interesting and he brought up a point about Piggybacks vs. Standalone tuning options. He was posed the following question:

What is the singular aftermarket product that makes the most power?

His answer:
"ECU/ECU tuning. Most don't realize that tuning is the beginning and everything. I'm not talking about piggybacks either. People, piggybacks are f*@$ing jokes. Take them off your car and sell them to all the cheap-asses who buy crap from eBay. Always use a standalone or have the factory ECU ROM-tuned."

Yes, I know, I read too much. Just thought this might be a topic a few of you would comment on, to enlighten the rest of us. I'm just curious what some of you think is all.

Eric Hsu appears to have a highly regarded background in the tuner cummunity. He was a chief Engineer at A'PEXi, before being placed in charge of parts developement at Cosworth.

PS: To CP-E and the XEDE groups who are working their asses off trying to get us something, I AM NOT knocking anything you guys are doing or will do in the future. I am just a trying to learn and I get these WHAT IF & WHAT ABOUT THIS scenarios in my head and must release them, otherwise................I don't know maybe my head would explode......lol

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IM NEW TO THIS... but u said that piggybacks are sh*t. why? i was looking at an uni-chip piggyback which i belive isnt ebay crap

If you're looking at the Speed6 a piggyback is the only thing available. The XEDE and the CPE Standback are the most widely used and the CPE controls more variables - specifically fuel pressure, in addition to the variables on the XEDE. The CPE unit also has a PID boost control that has much more precise and stable boost management. IIRC CPE is working on a 2nd gen board with more functionality. COBB was talking about making an Accessport (ECU reflash tool with performance maps) for the Speed3 but it is continually delayed - October is the latest I've heard. The 6 will follow this as it is lower on their list. Both the 3 and 6 have VERY complex ECU architecture and they have been difficult to crack.
As for the "piggybacks are s***" comment, well to each his own. I have the CPE Standback and my car drives better than it did stock. That is the only mod I have it gave me an additional 31 ft-lb of torque at peak.

I'm hearing the COBB will be releasing their access port very shortly. Within two months.

MazdaJeff said:

I'm hearing the COBB will be releasing their access port very shortly. Within two months.

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(yupnope)

MazdaJeff said:

I'm hearing the COBB will be releasing their access port very shortly. Within two months.

Click to expand...

Don't count it. All they have done is blow smoke up our asses. Hell, they never even replied to my email.