Car Leasing vs Financing

[youri]

I believe his point is that if you get one of the deal he is advertising, then leasing becomes an interesting proposition. Or to leverage the PHEV rebate in the states for example.

I wouldn’t consider the concept of leasing as being automatically bad. For example, i am exactly the guy that buys used car and keep them for a long time. But i want to move to a luxury brand, and I am not yet sure that models works on those cars, because of the maintenance costs.

 

[N7turbo]

Quick intro to my personnal situation: I usually like to keep my car until they are 10 year old, sometime buying slighlty used (2 year old), sometime new, and I have always financed. That model works well with regular cars that are somewhat reliable. I consider 10 years to be a good point where maintenance starts to become more expensive. But now we are considering moving upmarket to luxury brand (BMW, Audi, Genesis, etc), and keeping the car out of warranty until 10 years may not work out so well if small repairs end up costing thousands of dollar.

Not bad, I read a few years ago that the sweet spot is buying lease returns and keeping them until ~8 years old (so keeping for 5 years).

 

[N7turbo]

I read your entire post, and I understand that you're a salesman with something to sell. The one thing you forgot to mention about renting car, even your Maserati, is that you spend THOUSANDS of dollars on your rental, and when the term is over, you're looking at an empty driveway. Even though you dropped all that cash, you have exactly nothing to show for it at the end of the day.

At the end of the day, if talking money, cars are only about cost per mile. All of your calculations end there.

 

[EWL5]

Glad I asked the question, I am learning more and more. I understand the situation is different for everyone.

- I live in Canada, so the EV tax credit applies the same on purchase and on lease. But I agree it would be a huge incentive to lease in the US.

- Maybe the landscape in Canada is different, but I have never personally seen the kind of lease deals Ninja_Matt his showing. For sure, a 60K vehicle for 300$ a month would be a no-brainer, but the lease pricing I have seen is a lot more like the example that ataraxia showed with the XC-60. Which is why I have a hard time wrapping my mind around the "reduced monthly payments" advantages of leasing.

Quick intro to my personnal situation: I usually like to keep my car until they are 10 year old, sometime buying slighlty used (2 year old), sometime new, and I have always financed. That model works well with regular cars that are somewhat reliable. I consider 10 years to be a good point where maintenance starts to become more expensive. But now we are considering moving upmarket to luxury brand (BMW, Audi, Genesis, etc), and keeping the car out of warranty until 10 years may not work out so well if small repairs end up costing thousands of dollar. So I am intrigued by the leasing option. I think Ataraxia scenario with the volvo is the closest scenario to mine, but with the exception that the Volvo XC60 recharge gets the EV credit on the lease. I will try to build a canadian BMW X3 as an example instead.

From the Canada BMW website (All example includes all tax, freight and PDI.)

BMW X3 30i With premium package: veh price with option ($63,445).
36 month lease - 20000km a year, no down, no trade in
Monthly lease payments are: $1,217
3 year cost: $43,812
residual value: 0$

Financing for 3 years - down payment 30,000$
Monthly financing payment : $1,346$ a month
3 year cost: $48,456
residual value: about $35,000 CAD

But now looking at longer term (let's say a 6 year cycles, or 2 lease/financing cycle)

Leasing:
BMW X3 30i With premium package: veh price with option ($63,445).
First 36 month lease - 20000km a year, no down, no trade in
Monthly lease payments are: $1,217
First 3 year cost: $43,812
residual value: 0$

Second 36 month lease
Monthly lease payments are: $1,217
First 3 year cost: $43,812
residual value: 0$

Unused downpayment: $30,000. 6 year at 4% (6% - income tax) = 38,122 = 8,122$ interest

Total leasing cost: 43,812 + 43,812 -8,122 = $79,502


Financing:
Financing for 3 years - down payment 30,000$
Monthly financing payment : $1,346$ a month
3 year cost: $48,456
residual value: about $35,000 CAD

Financing for 3 years - trade in 35,000$
Monthly financing payment : $1,025 a month
3 year cost: $36,900
residual value: about $35,000 CAD
I can put aside the savings from the monthly payment: $321/month, 3 years at 4% (6% - income tax) = 12,256$

Total financing cost: 48,456 + 36,900 + 8,122 (interest lost from spending the 30000) - 12,256 (savings) = $81,222


The trade-in value is a powerful tool in Canada, because sales tax are high, and the trade-in reduces the sales tax by its equivalent value. So by trading-in your car, you achieve the same financial tax rebate as "only paying the tax on the lease". Note that I don't have a trade-in for the first year, because I kept my current car for 10 years and it's not worth much, but that has allowed me to accumulate the down payment.

So what am I missing in my scenario above that makes the lease so unappealing ? With financing, it looks like that even if I sell every 3 year (which is the worst way of financing a car). Not only it is only a few thousand dollar more expensive in the long run, but it lowers my monthly car payment every cycle. Allowing either more flexibility for my payments, or to move up and get a nicer car.

Am I calculating this wrong? Obviously, if lease ninja would get me a lease deal that would be half the price that would be a different, but I don't think they operate in Canada ?

There seems to be something wrong (at least for your first example). According to the Canadian BMW site, if I take the numbers for the X3 example they gave, I believe they are taking about 7.7% off MSRP to figure the monthly payment. In your example, it doesn't appear you've taken any money off the MSRP to figure the monthly payment. With the same 7.7% off and 4.49% money factor rate, you should be paying about 860 CAD/month (875 CAD/month if taking the difference from the example and not the % off). On the same website, BMW is offering 1.49% APR for a 24 month lease (which seems perfect for someone just trying luxury for the first time)!

Have you actually gotten numbers from a dealer?

https://www.bmw.ca/en/ssl/SpecialOffers.html

On a lease, residual value is never zero. I believe the X3 is at 55% of MSRP after 3 years for 20k km/year so that means residual value should be 35000 CAD (like in your finance example).

Edit: Even if the above monthly payments assumed BMW loyalty credit, you're still going to be below 1000 CAD/month!

 

[theblooms]

At the end of the day, if talking money, cars are only about cost per mile. All of your calculations end there.

In the last 31 years, I've spent roughly $35,000 on my Mazdas. That's purchase price and replacement of non-routine worn parts like timing belts ($50 on my old 323 and Protege every 75,000), shocks, control arms and wheel bearings (about $60 each every 200,000 miles). Never had to do any other kind of non-routine maintenance on any of them, not even an alternator or water pump. Oh wait, I did have to put a water pump on my B3000. That was like $25. At 825,000 miles and counting, that's 4 cents per mile.

Beat that by renting a car.

 

[Ninja_Matt]

The one thing you forgot to mention about renting car, even your Maserati, is that you spend THOUSANDS of dollars on your rental, and when the term is over, you're looking at an empty driveway.

I believe his point is that if you get one of the deal he is advertising, then leasing becomes an interesting proposition. Or to leverage the PHEV rebate in the states for example.

I think two opposing arguments can probably run circles around this for a while, but ultimately I think for your circumstances you are right - but also for my example I am right - because there is no wrong answer, my largest point was that you shouldn't look at leasing vs purchasing in absolutes.

The thread question originated in "Leasing vs Purchasing" which implies new cars, so if you want to be the most savvy financial buyer ever, buy used 3-4 year old base model compact sedans with as little failure points and affordable replacement parts as possible all in cash (bonus points for moving to a state like NH with 0% sales tax). In theory this is the way, however where do you think all the 3-4 year old cars come from? From people leasing their cars or buying and trading every 3-4 years. This is because the harsh reality of the human mind is, most people are not completely pragmatic with life decisions and financial decisions, there are emotions and other influences behind them and this is the majority. In my professional experience, the number of people leasing or buying new cars with little to no money out of pocket far outweighs the number of people buying 3 year old used cars in cash or with large down payments; so preaching such an extreme as the only option just simply won't appeal to the majority of car buyers. There is also absolutely nothing wrong with living a life that is not based solely on the most calculated and logical decisions, to each their own. So for the people who have already decided they prefer to spoil themselves a bit with buying a new car, I want to provide valuable advice on how to make the best purchasing/lease decision for a new car and how to best offset the downsides of buying into a depreciating asset.

At 825,000 miles and counting, that's 4 cents per mile.

Beat that by renting a car.

Well, frankly, I've driven a lot of cars for basically free or profited outside of gas and insurance. My Mazda3 Hatch Turbo I leased for nine months all washed cost me $247/mo to own. My second Defender (X-Dynamic P400) I drove for 3 months, paid out a total of ~$3,000 during that time and sold it for $3,200 back, so call it a wash. Before the depreciation caught up to them and markets settled down, the Wrangler 4xe was notoriously easy to flip, I have leased 4 of them but two of them I sold right after buying and profited $16k between the two. All it cost me to do so was tying up my credit with two cars for a month and one month of insurance. You can still flip these for profit or drive them for free for a few months but its not as lucrative as it used to be. They are only able to be flipped like this if they are leased, especially in states where you pay tax as you go each month. So again, the lifestyle isn't for everyone and you need to know what you're doing, but a well informed buyer can "hack" new car leases to the point where it is extremely affordable, free or even profitable to do so.

I still don't think this makes leasing the answer for everyone or every scenario, but back to my point, its largely nuanced and there is no right answer without considering the circumstances and the intent of the person buying the car.

 

[Ninja_Matt]

I believe his point is that if you get one of the deal he is advertising, then leasing becomes an interesting proposition. Or to leverage the PHEV rebate in the states for example.

I wouldn’t consider the concept of leasing as being automatically bad. For example, i am exactly the guy that buys used car and keep them for a long time. But i want to move to a luxury brand, and I am not yet sure that models works on those cars, because of the maintenance costs.

Sorry if this thread went a bit sideways - for your personal situation if you are looking for a more premium/luxury experience and want to move to luxury, I would consider leasing a BMW or Lexus (Audi and Volvo, alternatively, have more restricted leases and make the flexibility aspect of leasing more difficult) and saving your large cash down payment, I'm not a financial advisor so where you park that cash is up to you, but this way you can test the waters and see if moving to a luxury brand is right for you, at the end of the lease, you have a clear path forward to pay it off or finance a portion of the residual and keep it based on your experience with it for the first few years. You may also have equity with these two brands specifically (more so than Audi or Volvo, another reason I am erring against those) to recoup some of your lease costs at the end of the lease if you decide to not keep it, but sell it instead. For reference the average BMW X3 or X5 lease we buy we pay out between $1k-$3k in equity to the client, Lexus is similar.

Alternatively, I would also recommend this option on a CX90, I think generally speaking anyone looking to explore a new class or brand or price point of new vehicle should consider the lease first approach as long as the brand isn't highly restricted (again, looking at you Volvo), and then consider buying it out if you really enjoyed the initial experience. If you are confident in the car you are purchasing and know you are committed to the long term ownership and maintenance experience of it, then securing a good finance rate with a solid down payment is a better approach. It's only when you have uncertainties where going for the lease first mitigates those risks/liabilities and can be a safety net to avoid a trap. With Mazda's new powertrain, or going into a new luxury brand, the uncertainty of long term repair and maintenance costs are a real concern and getting a 3 year test period is desirable IMO.

 

[ataraxia]

Glad I asked the question, I am learning more and more. I understand the situation is different for everyone.

- I live in Canada, so the EV tax credit applies the same on purchase and on lease. But I agree it would be a huge incentive to lease in the US.

- Maybe the landscape in Canada is different, but I have never personally seen the kind of lease deals Ninja_Matt his showing. For sure, a 60K vehicle for 300$ a month would be a no-brainer, but the lease pricing I have seen is a lot more like the example that ataraxia showed with the XC-60. Which is why I have a hard time wrapping my mind around the "reduced monthly payments" advantages of leasing.

The big difference between what I showed and what Ninja_Matt showed is that mine is based only off of dealer provided figures - not through a broker who can get better deals than the average person walking into a dealership. The broker deals are heavily dependent on factors that may change the outcome if you have specific 'wants' for a lease term. They may not be able to find the exact car you're looking for if you're not flexible.

The comparison I posted shows that I'd have to put down $30k on the vehicle and finance it with a higher monthly payment - to wind up with ~$38k in equity at the end (assuming the residual value is accurate), whereas with a lease, I don't have to pay $30k down and can invest a good chunk of it elsewhere for three years if I'm leasing. And if I use part of that $30k to add to MSD, I'd get the $9500 back at the end of the lease term if doing so makes sense. If not - I'd pay a slightly higher monthly lease rate and invest whatever I don't spend. The goal is to pay as little as possible at drive off so it can be invested elsewhere vs. paying interest on a car loan.

I will have, effectively, "rented" the car for three years paying only the depreciation, taxes and a small rental fee in the process. If the value absolutely plummets (which is likely with new-ish PHEV technology) I don't eat that when the car is returned. The payments are lower because of incentives afforded only to a lease (in the US) stacked on top of a couple of other seasonal incentives with an expiration date. At the end of the lease - I have, likely, a large chunk of the $30k I would have otherwise dropped on the down payment that made me some money over three years vs. a car that may or may not be worth what I hoped at the end of the payment process. You don't own the car until you have the title and then it's only worth what someone is willing to pay you for it.

 

[youri]

There seems to be something wrong (at least for your first example). According to the Canadian BMW site, if I take the numbers for the X3 example they gave, I believe they are taking about 7.7% off MSRP to figure the monthly payment. In your example, it doesn't appear you've taken any money off the MSRP to figure the monthly payment. With the same 7.7% off and 4.49% money factor rate, you should be paying about 860 CAD/month (875 CAD/month if taking the difference from the example and not the % off).

Have you actually gotten numbers from a dealer?

https://www.bmw.ca/en/ssl/SpecialOffers.html

On a lease, residual value is never zero. I believe the X3 is at 55% of MSRP after 3 years for 20k km/year so that means residual value should be 35000 CAD (like in your finance example).

Edit: Even if the above monthly payments assumed BMW loyalty credit, you're still going to be below 1000 CAD/month!

I used the online quote, i don’t have any pricing from dealers yet. I can’t seem to find the 7.7%MSRP reduction though. Maybe i will post a screenshot later. I used the financing calculator built in the « build your vehicle » page because i added the premium package to the vehicle. Maybe I will try to take a screenshot later today.

No loyalty credit or anything like that. I did not include lease residual value because BMW was not showing it on their website, and also because I don’t own that residual value, this is what it would cost me to buy the vehicle. In my financing option, i included the residual value because this is how much equity i have if I trade in the vehicle.

 

[Ninja_Matt]

I feel dumb, somehow completely missed @youri long response last night so apologies if my last two responses missed some relevance to that! Totally did not catch we were dealing with Canada, not my wheelhouse unfortunately so probably some nuance to Canadian leasing/buying vs US.

@ataraxia great points and overall spot on, leasing is a tool but how you use is will determine your outcome. I'm sure the right person could do a lot with $30k invested in other places vs parking it in a car, which is exactly how well-informed people can come out ahead with debt vs people living debt free. I get @theblooms perspective where generally speaking, to the layman who may not understand or be comfortable with investments, having a debt free goal is the safer play vs having a bunch of people taking on debt to blindly throw cash in risky investments. The poor borrow more than they can afford, the wealthy live debt free with safe practices, the rich use other people's money to make a lot more money.

@youri you should still consider that residual value on the lease in your calculations because ultimately while you may not already own the car for that price, you have the right to own the car for that price via contracts. This is the part people often miss and equate leasing to renting - "you have nothing in the end". Using an extreme example just to show this point, imagine your residual on the lease was $10,000 after 3 years on this car, having the contractual right to buy the car at $10,000 in the end when it will definitely be worth much more than that is valuable and worth considering. The whole point is, you have the option to take it or leave it, to your calculated benefit. With a finance, you don't get that flexibility, you are obliged to that car for whatever your loan balance is until you get that title.

This brings me to the rub with your calculations and shows exactly why leasing might make sense, you are assuming the trade value is $35k each time you trade which I'm unsure how you are arriving at that number but using my experience in the US that seems like a wild assumption. How does your decision get affected if the trade in value drops to $25k on each calculation? You seem financially savvy and disciplined enough to be able to responsibly do a 3 year finance cycle like this and pull it off with a similar overall cost to if you were doing lease cycles, however the outside variables are still exposed such as the valuation assumptions of your trade, so while I don't think in your exact example that Leasing provides a meaningful financial benefit over 6 years over a finance (in a vacuum), what it does do is mitigate the odds of you getting hit with a surprise variable. If you have two paths to take, same distance and they get you to the same place, but one is paved with railings and the other one you might fall off a sheer cliff, which path do you take? Odds are you will get to the same place in the end, but one path has a lot more risks.

In the US, at least with our dealer relationships, an X3 lease is about half the payment you are sharing here so comparing the two options is a bit easier for us in that context. Since you are using MSRP based values, there is a good chance your scenario becomes clearer if you are able to score a good deal from a dealer because that lease payment will likely drop more significantly (since its calculating the difference from residual to sale price, vs difference of $0 to sale price) with each discount. Again, using US data, BMW markup is generally about 6% from invoice with a 5% holdback, so in our experience 10%-11% dealer discount (not including incentives) is bottom of the barrel best deal out there, but 5%-6% is considered a generally good deal.

 

[EWL5]

I used the online quote, i don’t have any pricing from dealers yet. I can’t seem to find the 7.7%MSRP reduction though. Maybe i will post a screenshot later. I used the financing calculator built in the « build your vehicle » page because i added the premium package to the vehicle. Maybe I will try to take a screenshot later today.

No loyalty credit or anything like that. I did not include lease residual value because BMW was not showing it on their website, and also because I don’t own that residual value, this is what it would cost me to buy the vehicle. In my financing option, i included the residual value because this is how much equity i have if I trade in the vehicle.

Ok, ignore the 7.7% discount off MSRP for now. You really need to go to a dealer to get actual numbers because the online calculator makes a lot of assumptions!

In the US, residual value on an X3 is 55% of MSRP after 3 years/36k miles. Your objective is to reduce the sale price of the car as much as possible (residual value never changes) since you are paying for the depreciation and some dealer profit. Remember that your monthly payment numbers so far are with zero down so if you want to lower the monthly payment, you will have to put some money down.

For anyone curious about the numbers being thrown around for youri, each USD is equivalent to 1.36 CAD.

 

[Ninja_Matt]

EWL5 is spot on with the residual and with the advice to go to the dealer, time to work with real numbers to make a proper comparison!

Also, in case anyone is ever curious, we built a free lease calculator tool (US only) that uses real time manufacturer lease program data from virtually all manufacturers. This can help anyone shopping a dealer quote by plugging in the info and comparing what the numbers the dealer is showing vs what the numbers *should* be. Incentives, lease cash, buy rate Money Factor, residual and buy rate Bank Fees included.

Auto Ninjas - Best Online Lease Calculator Tool

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autoninjas.com

 

[EWL5]

EWL5 is spot on with the residual and with the advice to go to the dealer, time to work with real numbers to make a proper comparison!

Also, in case anyone is ever curious, we built a free lease calculator tool (US only) that uses real time manufacturer lease program data from virtually all manufacturers. This can help anyone shopping a dealer quote by plugging in the info and comparing what the numbers the dealer is showing vs what the numbers *should* be. Incentives, lease cash, buy rate Money Factor, residual and buy rate Bank Fees included.

Auto Ninjas - Best Online Lease Calculator Tool

Calculate your perfect lease or factory order with Auto Ninjas lease calculator

autoninjas.com

I actually used the leasehackr calculator to estimate the discount off MSRP for the Canadian BMW site example! Since there was no Canadian dollar option, I just put in the numbers as is (percentages are percentages)!

The only caveat is I wasn't privy to any Canadian taxes that would be lumped into the monthly payments but that shouldn't change the numbers by hundreds!

 

[youri]

Taxes are 14.975% were I live . They were included in my estimate and so was also freight and prep.

I will try and digest everything later tonight. Thank you everyone for the feedback.

 

[theblooms]

Car sales tax in my state is capped at $500. Doesn't matter if you're buying $2,000,000 Ferrari or a $7,500 2015 Mazda3.

 

[youri]

So I punched my numbers in Leasehacker, with a slight adjustment to the residual value, because BMW calculates it at $31,720$ (instead of the 35,000 I had estimated based on current used market) (Link and screenshot at the end of this post). It still falls to about the same price per month, and still very expensive to lease. It is about very close to financing for 3 years. Obviously my downpayment of 30,000 is the differentiator here, without it on the financing option, the financing monthly cost would be $2,286 per month. I used purchase price of 63,445$ (56,700 MSRP, 4,300 option, $2,445 freight and PDI) (Canadian cost)

Now with regards to some of the point brought up of leasing adds flexibility at the end of the leasing period. I don't see it the same way. With financing at the end of the financing option. I have the flexibility to either keep the car at no cost for as long as I want, or trade-it in at any time. It is mine to decide what I will do with it. Agreed you can buy the car at the end of the lease, but then realistically, you need to take a new loan at that point to pay the difference. I personally wouldn't recommend loan on a car past 5 years, so if I lease for the first 3 years, I spend 45,783 on the first 3 years, then need to finance 31,720 + tax (36,470) for the next 2 years. That would be higher monthly payments than for the first 3 years. (15,261 annually vs 18,235). That also ends up being more money than financing from the start

Now, I admit my scenario was a bit artificial, because I wouldn't normally finance over 3 years, but I wanted to look at it from a lense that would eliminate the "you have a new car every 3 year" argument. And I am lucky to have a large downpayment, which not a lot of people have (but that is also why I was asking the question, most scenarios didn't really fit my particular situation).

My conclusion at this point (and feel free to comment or correct me on these):

1. the large downpayment on financing was negating the apparent lower monthly payment advantage of the lease. With a large downpayment (about half the value of the car), leasing is about on par with financing. If I try to trade in the car after 3 years, leasing actually win mainly because of the investment opportunity of the unused downpayment, and the stupidly high interest rate on financing. If I decide to keep the car for longer then that might be a different story.
2. try to avoid putting a downpayment on a lease. Because if the car is totaled, the downpayment will be lost.
3. The leasing incentives, rebates and promotions are where the real opportunity is with leasing. Even more so now in the US with the EV rebates only applicable to leases for a lot of manufacturer. I need to find a way to find those kind of rebate in Canada. I would love to find a deal similar to the ones mentionned above.
4. I agree I need to go get prices from real dealers. It looks likes the incentives are where the solutions is really at, and the dealer website calculator obviously won't show all of them.

CALCULATOR | LEASEHACKR

Leasehackr Calculator is the most powerful consumer research tool for car leases and car financing. It integrates lease, finance, and cash purchase programs for virtually all car models in the US and Canada.

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[N7turbo]

2. try to avoid putting a downpayment on a lease. Because if the car is totaled, the downpayment will be lost.

GAP insurance is cheap. Progressive calls it by some other name.

 

[EWL5]

So I punched my numbers in Leasehacker, with a slight adjustment to the residual value, because BMW calculates it at $31,720$ (instead of the 35,000 I had estimated based on current used market) (Link and screenshot at the end of this post). It still falls to about the same price per month, and still very expensive to lease. It is about very close to financing for 3 years. Obviously my downpayment of 30,000 is the differentiator here, without it on the financing option, the financing monthly cost would be $2,286 per month. I used purchase price of 63,445$ (56,700 MSRP, 4,300 option, $2,445 freight and PDI) (Canadian cost)

Now with regards to some of the point brought up of leasing adds flexibility at the end of the leasing period. I don't see it the same way. With financing at the end of the financing option. I have the flexibility to either keep the car at no cost for as long as I want, or trade-it in at any time. It is mine to decide what I will do with it. Agreed you can buy the car at the end of the lease, but then realistically, you need to take a new loan at that point to pay the difference. I personally wouldn't recommend loan on a car past 5 years, so if I lease for the first 3 years, I spend 45,783 on the first 3 years, then need to finance 31,720 + tax (36,470) for the next 2 years. That would be higher monthly payments than for the first 3 years. (15,261 annually vs 18,235). That also ends up being more money than financing from the start

Now, I admit my scenario was a bit artificial, because I wouldn't normally finance over 3 years, but I wanted to look at it from a lense that would eliminate the "you have a new car every 3 year" argument. And I am lucky to have a large downpayment, which not a lot of people have (but that is also why I was asking the question, most scenarios didn't really fit my particular situation).

My conclusion at this point (and feel free to comment or correct me on these):

1. the large downpayment on financing was negating the apparent lower monthly payment advantage of the lease. With a large downpayment (about half the value of the car), leasing is about on par with financing. If I try to trade in the car after 3 years, leasing actually win mainly because of the investment opportunity of the unused downpayment, and the stupidly high interest rate on financing. If I decide to keep the car for longer then that might be a different story.
2. try to avoid putting a downpayment on a lease. Because if the car is totaled, the downpayment will be lost.
3. The leasing incentives, rebates and promotions are where the real opportunity is with leasing. Even more so now in the US with the EV rebates only applicable to leases for a lot of manufacturer. I need to find a way to find those kind of rebate in Canada. I would love to find a deal similar to the ones mentionned above.
4. I agree I need to go get prices from real dealers. It looks likes the incentives are where the solutions is really at, and the dealer website calculator obviously won't show all of them.

CALCULATOR | LEASEHACKR

Leasehackr Calculator is the most powerful consumer research tool for car leases and car financing. It integrates lease, finance, and cash purchase programs for virtually all car models in the US and Canada.

leasehackr.com

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By your own admission, not everyone has 30k sitting in the bank or a car w/that equivalent trade-in value! Leasing is the cheapest way to get into luxury w/o huge commitment. There are some folks with newer GLCs that wished they leased! Lol!

Based on the numbers I’ve seen, it looks like BMW is slightly more affordable in Canada vs US. My MY23 X3 xDrive30i w/Premium and Parking Assistance Package was bought for 74100+ CAD at today’s rates (purchased Fall ‘22). That number doesn’t include tax!

 

[youri]

I would consider leasing a BMW or Lexus (Audi and Volvo, alternatively, have more restricted leases and make the flexibility aspect of leasing more difficult)

I forgot to ask. Can you explain what you mean by some brand have more restricted lease ? I am not familiar with the difference in flexibility some brand offer over the others.

 

[theblooms]

By your own admission, not everyone has 30k sitting in the bank or a car w/that equivalent trade-in value!

Which is why you have to save up until you do. I haven't made a car payment since 1999. I learned the hard way that instant gratification inevitably leads to disaster.

I cannot tell you how BROKE we really were. 3 months behind on the mortgage. Getting our lights and water cut off. Not even having enough money to buy my son a Popsicle. (Yes that really happened). When I couldn't buy that Popsicle, that was the last straw. I knew things had to change.

Now, because I learned to stick to a strict budget and delay gratification, I live debt free. I went from being 3 months behind on my mortgage on a 1400 SQ ft. house that only cost $77k, to having a paid off 3100sq ft house on almost 4 acres, completely debt free, and a net worth of $1.2M.

And yes, I LOVE cars. I'm definitely a car guy. I have a 75 C10 short bed with a camed 350 that I'm restoring, a 04 Silverado with only 90k miles, my wife's 12 MZ5, and my 13 CX-5, all of which I bought outright. And lately, I've got my eye on a Porsche 911 which is my absolute dream car. I'm saving up the cash right now, and I should have it by the end of this year.

I could not imagine renting a car and having the possibility of putting myself back in that jackpot. The world always changes, and no one can foresee the future. If something were to happen and God forbid something happens to your company and you lose your job but you owe all of these payments every month, what then? Again, you can't predict these things. When you don't owe anyone anything, you have zero worries.