Massive smoking issue & crappy idle - after major "improvement" 2003 Mazda Protege :(

LOL thanks for that pcb - I will give that a try. I can state in advance that if the test reveals leaky valve stem seals after installing two completely new sets of seals (from Mazda @$160/ea) within three weeks of each other (didn't want to have to take the top end apart a third time!) I will take the car behind the "barn" and shoot it... never mind the ring part of the test. LOL. BTW if anyone is doing valve stem seals I emphatically recommend this tool (model VMT68 is the one I bought): http://www.toyotool.com/ He actually periodically sells it for about $10 cheaper on his Ebay store if anyone is interested. Very skookum. I did the job the first time with the Lisle tool, which works, but the Toyo tool works so much better.
 
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What do you mean by lower end being "okay" (or not okay)? And what is a JDM engine?

And where do you even get rings/supplies for this sort of project?

Just curious...

The parts quote I mentioned was calculated assuming the crankshaft was in good enough shape to reuse without machining. When I disassembled it after the fact, it needed polishing at the very least.

JDM stands for Japanese Domestic Import, or an engine that was sold in Japan. They have slightly higher compression and more aggressive camshafts, along with a higher horsepower rating (170 vs 130 USDM).

From what I understand, strict inspection and emissions regulations make it very difficult to license and drive a car on the road that has many miles on it. Because of this, many of them get parted out and exported. See my build thread for a couple photos of the engine that I received. It was very clean inside, and runs great.

Rockauto and most parts stores can get rebuild parts for these.
 
Huh! Now you have my curiosity peaked MrGiggles! Do you have a link to the build thread you speak of? I looked in your profile and don't see any reference/link.... sorry... new here!

Is your vehicle manual or automatic? Where do you get these engines, how do you find a reputable source in order not to get an abused one, and what about the PCM?

Since I did the timing belt (and solved my IM/Coolant leaks) my car has good jam and no more occasional pinging. But some extra HP would definitely be fun! Do those JDM engines have VICS/VTCS?

What does the "ZE" stand for? as in FSZE?

So if I bought a 2003 Mazda Protege5 in Japan it would have this JDM FSZE engine in it? Is it turbo charged like the Mazdaspeed?

How much modding is required to swap out the engines?

What happens when you need parts for these engines?

I think that's it for my immediate questions... thanks for the clarification!
 
Huh! Now you have my curiosity peaked MrGiggles! Do you have a link to the build thread you speak of? I looked in your profile and don't see any reference/link.... sorry... new here!

Is your vehicle manual or automatic? Where do you get these engines, how do you find a reputable source in order not to get an abused one, and what about the PCM?

Since I did the timing belt (and solved my IM/Coolant leaks) my car has good jam and no more occasional pinging. But some extra HP would definitely be fun! Do those JDM engines have VICS/VTCS?

What does the "ZE" stand for? as in FSZE?

So if I bought a 2003 Mazda Protege5 in Japan it would have this JDM FSZE engine in it? Is it turbo charged like the Mazdaspeed?

How much modding is required to swap out the engines?

What happens when you need parts for these engines?

I think that's it for my immediate questions... thanks for the clarification!

http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showthread.php?123846255-My-02-P5-Build/page4

My P5 is a manual. There are several importers in Canada, some of which offer compression/leak down tests and can send you photos of the exact engine you're buying.

As far as I know all JDM Proteges should have the ZE. I don't know for sure though, being in Missouri. They are not turbo, and do not have the butterflies in the intake.

There really is no modding required, if you use the USDM intake and all of the other peripherals (crank pulley, knock sensor, starter, alternator, etc), and install them on the ZE long block. Using the ZE intake requires more work, and I opted not to. They run just fine on the stock P5 ECU, as long as you use all of the sensors that came with the car. It doesn't know the difference.

Unfortunately the extra 40 horsepower is not attainable without the ZE ECU. An MP3 ECU/reflash definitely helps. The HP calculator in Torque Pro is showing 118 max wheel horsepower on my car, but the accuracy is questionable.

The only parts that are different on the ZE are the pistons, cams, and intake. Parts are generally the same between the DE and ZE, with a couple exceptions like spark plugs, although they are easy to find. Parts are not an issue.
 
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Interesting. It seems like your engine purchase was not quite as described - what is the difference between FSZE vs FSDE? I would definitely not be happy about broken components!

And what is involved with the MP3 flash? I used to have a Ford F-350 (gas) with a Livewire programmer and custom tunes - can you flash the ECU yourself or if not, who does it? Did you do yours in the end? What about getting the FSZE ECU - has anyone done that?

I'm lucky in that I don't have near the smoking issues you did - the smoke is definitely a thick cloud on startup but does dissipate reasonably quickly. It definitely is blueish tint and smells like oil/exhaust. When I first had the valve cover off there was no indications of heavy sludge either. Hopefully it's just worn rings and no major overhaul required.

I'm going to have to do my own build thread! I was lucky and got a rare model with factory leather. Unfortunately I need to replace the leather on the passenger seat. I was moving with the cat and I didn't have the litter box with me like I have learned to do on longer trips. He peed on the seat. (rant) Fortunately I have an awesome home remedy to remove the smell of cat pee. Not so fortunately it involves the use of Hydrogen Peroxide. Since I didn't recondition the leather post-cleaning, it became brittle after a few months and is now disintegrating. (rant)

You said yours had a "moon roof" do you mean "sun roof"?

It would be interesting to know more about the ring replacement - you mentioned earlier about a quick and dirty on-the-car replacement?

LOL I put a Kenwood DNN990HD in my truck when they were first released. Cost $1300 USD from Crutchfield - first model to have internet/android os/dvd player etc. Despite the HD it was a really crappy display compared to my Samsung Galaxy Note 3. Waited 6 months for someone to figure out how to hack into it and install custom ROM over on XDA Developers forum so we could install proper apps on it - finally got fed up and sold it while it was still "new". For this rig I bought I nice Sony single din unit, and a Samsung Galaxy Tab S 8.4" which I plan to dash mount once I figure out where to put the head unit. I was going to do a dash mount without the head, however this head has bluetooth hands-free, Sirius XM satellite and a pretty kick ass built in amplifier. Eventually I'll put better speakers but I'm very happy with this setup. Found a spare bezel from a local auto wrecker so I can return the car to stock should I decide to sell it down the road.
 
Interesting. It seems like your engine purchase was not quite as described - what is the difference between FSZE vs FSDE? I would definitely not be happy about broken components!

And what is involved with the MP3 flash? I used to have a Ford F-350 (gas) with a Livewire programmer and custom tunes - can you flash the ECU yourself or if not, who does it? Did you do yours in the end? What about getting the FSZE ECU - has anyone done that?

I'm lucky in that I don't have near the smoking issues you did - the smoke is definitely a thick cloud on startup but does dissipate reasonably quickly. It definitely is blueish tint and smells like oil/exhaust. When I first had the valve cover off there was no indications of heavy sludge either. Hopefully it's just worn rings and no major overhaul required.

I'm going to have to do my own build thread! I was lucky and got a rare model with factory leather. Unfortunately I need to replace the leather on the passenger seat. I was moving with the cat and I didn't have the litter box with me like I have learned to do on longer trips. He peed on the seat. (rant) Fortunately I have an awesome home remedy to remove the smell of cat pee. Not so fortunately it involves the use of Hydrogen Peroxide. Since I didn't recondition the leather post-cleaning, it became brittle after a few months and is now disintegrating. (rant)

You said yours had a "moon roof" do you mean "sun roof"?

It would be interesting to know more about the ring replacement - you mentioned earlier about a quick and dirty on-the-car replacement?

LOL I put a Kenwood DNN990HD in my truck when they were first released. Cost $1300 USD from Crutchfield - first model to have internet/android os/dvd player etc. Despite the HD it was a really crappy display compared to my Samsung Galaxy Note 3. Waited 6 months for someone to figure out how to hack into it and install custom ROM over on XDA Developers forum so we could install proper apps on it - finally got fed up and sold it while it was still "new". For this rig I bought I nice Sony single din unit, and a Samsung Galaxy Tab S 8.4" which I plan to dash mount once I figure out where to put the head unit. I was going to do a dash mount without the head, however this head has bluetooth hands-free, Sirius XM satellite and a pretty kick ass built in amplifier. Eventually I'll put better speakers but I'm very happy with this setup. Found a spare bezel from a local auto wrecker so I can return the car to stock should I decide to sell it down the road.

The differences between the DE and ZE are minimal, just pistons and cams. I don't know anyone that has successfully transplanted a ZE ECU into a P5. It's a lot of work.

There is a guy here that will flash them for 150 bucks. I haven't done it yet, waiting on some extra money.

My car does have the electric sun roof. I'm still not clear clear on the difference between a moon roof and a sun roof.

You can replace the rings with the engine in the car.
http://mazda626.net/topic/41703-ring-job-on-fs-and-fp-engines/
 
A sunroof has to be open to let light in and a moonroof is made of glass to let light in when closed. People still call a moonroof a sunroof though.
 
A sunroof has to be open to let light in and a moonroof is made of glass to let light in when closed. People still call a moonroof a sunroof though.

When I have mine open at night its a moonroof... When it's open during the day it's a sunroof...

I don't know what it is when it's cloudy out ??? (lol)
 
Just don't leave any roof open when it's raining... ;)

UPDATE: I finally did the suggested test - phase 1. I have oil in in my cylinders with a cold engine. The first time I did the valve seals (new from Mazda), it was my very first time and I used a 1/4" drive deep socket (9mm I think?) to press them into position and it's possible that one or more weren't seated properly. However when I did the job the second time, again with new seals from Mazda - I used the awesome Toyo tool, including for the install of the seals (thus ruling out depth issues) I don't see how there could be a problem - seemed very straight forward once you get the hang of it. Am I missing something? Could there be a problem with something else? Valve guides? I am going through a lot of (expensive synthetic) oil - seems like more than before. I'm guessing it pointless to consider rings at this point until I figure out the startup oil?

Cylinders #1,#3 were obviously wet - #2 and #4 just very dirty - perhaps coincidental due to valve position at shutdown?

On a (slightly?) more happy note, I took the lower engine cover off yesterday and had a look around the base of the timing belt cover and crankshaft pulley - it does seem like it's dry after all - I'm going to clean it with brakeclean and check again - I actually think it might be the oil pan seal, or one or two bolts on the passenger side. The "gasket" appears to be grey sealant of some kind - the service manual doesn't show a gasket, rather silicone sealant. I tightened two suspect bolts - but the factory torque specs (14-18 foot pounds for the FS) are quite light to begin with. Is this common to suddenly start seeping (lightly) in this area? I hope it doesn't leak worse from over torquing.

My car is running poorly again - idle is fine - it's accelerating and shifting that are the problem - up until about 4,000 RPM and 4 or 5 gear then I don't notice the symptoms. Sometimes I get surging during acceleration - jerky throttle response, bucking when shifting (kind of like what you get when you have intake leaks) however I sprayed carb cleaner on all the fuel injector IM ports and the areas (topside) of the IM I could access. No obvious leaks. No engine codes.

Edited for UPDATE: Got the e-clip on the VTCS rod - FINALLY! At least I can rule that out.

If it isn't air, what else could it be? I checked every electrical connection and vacuum line I thought I might have disturbed and I don't see anything obvious.

Any thoughts?
 
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You might want to consider replacing your high pressure fuel filter (fuel pump housing).

You may have improper fuel pressure due to a nearly plugged filter.

I replaced mine just for good measure... I had no problems with the car.

I did a how to on it..

(How to replace your fuel filter lots of pics)
 
Hi pcb,

Thank you for the input and that particular troubleshooting page - I have the full service information just hadn't gotten around to checking that section yet. I'm hoping someone with similar issues or whose heard of similar will chime in. Seems odd for the fuel filter to suddenly become plugged? I thought it would be more likely to be related to some of the extensive work I did on the IM, EGR, Throttle body, Timing Belt/Valve-stem project.

The engine has suddenly started consuming ridiculous amounts of oil, and there was a fair bit of oil on the two cylinders I checked. I wonder what #2 and #4 would look like if they ended up with open valves at shutdown. Given the valve stem seal job was done twice with new seals - is it possible to have a stuck valve, bad guides or ??? The startup smoke is lingering longer by the day and this morning I was blowing blue for sometime down the road.

My oil pan has definitely started seeping - I'm wondering if all the rough running/vibration I've experienced during this saga is the cause - I certainly never touched the oil pan. I even used an engine support bar when I removed the engine mount for the timing belt change - didn't jack up the engine by the oil pan like so many do.

I'm really feeling frustrated right now!!! I feel like taking the car out and shooting it. :(

My oil
 
Only thing I can suggest is to switch to Dino oil.
Other guys have mentioned that it burns up a lot slower than synthetic and is a lot cheaper.
 
@pcb do you have a link to your thread? I'm going to borrow a fuel pressure tester in the next few days, and if I can figure out how to use it I'm going to test that. Still doesn't explain the ridiculous oil loss/consumption though. Also going to re-check the engine compression.

Anybody:

Cleaned the PCV valve and checked the lines - everything seems fine. The PCV valve is only a few months old and it still rattles. I'm going to pull the throttle body off again to be sure the gasket is still dry - I'm getting white smoke on some days, but not others.

If the engine isn't leaking massive amounts of oil externally, and the plugs aren't soaked in oil, how else can the engine be consuming it? Is it possible for the oil to be venting to atmosphere somehow? A friend suggested a crankcase vent valve stuck open - do we even have such a thing?

Is there any other way for oil to get into the combustion chamber other than the valve stem seals? Is it possible for a valve guide to be cracked or something?

Thanks for any help...
 
Any more updates? I just went through the same thing trying to solve the smoke issue. Replaced the valve stem seals twice but still getting oil leaking into the 4th cylinder while it sits.
 
Hi Bentaylor,
I started a new thread here: http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showthread.php?123851021-Possible-for-vacuum-leak-to-cause-engine-oil-to-be-sucked-into-combustion-chamber because I solved most of my initial issues, and am left with the smoke and crazy oil burning.

Tomorrow I plan to finally do the compression test I've been meaning to do for the past week, to test for blown piston rings. As well, my next troubleshoot is to temporarily disable my PCV system to see if that is the cause of my crazy smoking/oil consumption. I just replaced my PCV valve as part of the troubleshooting and I'm starting to wonder if the crank case is pressurizing somehow and forcing oil into the combustion chamber while running - my new PCV valve is oil-compromised and allowing air to pass already. I'll post my results in the other thread tomorrow.

If your issue is only leaking while sitting, it might be that one or more valve guides is worn. If I can resolve the engine eating all my oil, hopefully with the PCV system temporary delete, I will check the engine the following morning and see if there is any overnight leakage (I think I have a couple of issues going on with the oil). I have changed my seals twice with new, and this week pulled the springs and confirmed all seals installed correctly - after 3 times checking my work I'm quite satisfied I am not the guilty party here - at least with respect to the seals.

I have been asking around if the valve guides can crack, come loose or otherwise leak outside of the stem seals but so far nobody that has done an engine rebuild has chimed in to say if this is possible or not. I'm pretty sure you can install new valve guides so it seems to me this is worth questioning.

Out of curiosity what tool did you use to compress the springs? I'm assuming you did yours head-on-car?

Please chime in if you learn anything of note!
 
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I think we are having the same issue or near enough. The first set of valve seals were a FelPro kit, but after installing them i had oil in all my cylinders instead of just the 4th. I swapped them out for 8 intake and 8 exhaust seals (the felpro kit were all the same seals). And now I'm back to oil leaking into just the 4th.

I used a 19mm socket and an extender to remove and install the springs. I did a head on install using the rope trick. placed the socket over the spring and hit with a hammer to knock the keepers out. Then put a latex glove over the end of the socket and pushed the spring down by hand. The glove helped keep the keepers in place and push them down too. I have bruises on the base of my palms from doing all 16 springs, twice.

I've done a couple of tests removing the spark plug when the car is warm and notice allot less oil accumulating. Barely enough smoke to worry about. I want to try this a couple more times to make sure. I'll keep following your other thread and hopefully we can nut this out.
 
LOL well, if you think you'll be removing/installing the springs again and want to pay for postage (I'm in BC) , you can have my Lisle tool - free. It's not quite as good as the Toyo tool I bought, but does the job without causing pain - it has a built-in magnet to retain the keepers. This thing is cat's ass: http://www.toyotool.com/PURCHASE.htm bought it a bit cheaper from his ebay store. I did mine on the car with Mazda seals and rope trick too - works great for breaking/re-torque on the crank bolt too. I didn't like the idea of the starter trick.

Am I inferring correctly you bought Mazda seals the second go around?
 
My local Napa only offered the felpro kit and individual seals, no genuine parts. 16 individual seals cost me $61 (tax in).
I had trouble with the crank bolt too. Couldn't get it with an impact gun or the starter trick. In the end my screw loose friend held the bolt with a breaker bar about 12" from the swing arm and told me to turn the motor over. When he couldn't hold on anymore he let it swing and hit the arm which was enough to break the bolt loose.

If I don't work out a solution soon Im going to take the head off and inspect the valves and gaskets. That tool could come in handy. I'm in Revelstoke BC.
 
Ok... next time, use the rope trick for the crank bolt! Position Cyl #1 @ BDC and rotate the engine backwards for resistance @TDC for breaking the torque, and forwards to re-torque 120 ft/lbs. A 1/2" drive 2' breaker bar (or suitable pipe extension) works best. With the car jacked up enough to get underneath you'll have just enough room under the front bumper for both radius actions. I'm in the Lower Mainland so if you know someone passing through the area let me know, or just reimburse me the cost of postage or freight and the tool is yours. PM me with details.

Sigh. I paid $160 (with trade discount) for OEM - twice. I didn't need to do new the second time around, but since I couldn't say with absolute certainty that I didn't make a mistake I laid out the $$ a second time to be sure, and because I didn't want to take the damn thing a part a 3rd time... which I ended up doing anyway. Grrr... the price of learning I guess.

Given my research, and most recently the thread MrGiggles linked to in my other thread, I'm starting to suspect rings. It took a while to find the right search terms but it's looking like several people have had this problem (ridiculous oil consumption) I'm having and so far it doesn't seem to be head related. If I had something else to drive in the meantime, and the budget, I would just go ahead with the remove/rebuild/reinstall - I'm quite interested in taking that on since I've never done it. Just missing a few key items at the moment (money, time and something else to drive). In the meantime, I plan to continue my research, and the limited testing I am able to do.

In a week or so I hope to do a leakdown test with a friend with the equipment and know-how. I'll post the results.

Would be nice to find a smoke machine to pinpoint/rule-out any external leaks. If anyone is located near the Lower Mainland of BC that has access to this equipment, or can share any information on using this equipment - any intel greatly appreciated.
 
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