Adjustable Front End Link Options?

Looking for feedback from those currently using adjustable front end links. What brand, price, and min/max length are yours? What setup do you have going up front? Is it correct that Mz3/MS3/Mz5 all use the same front end links (in terms of fitment, they have different lengths so different part#)?

Here are my options so far. Any opinions on these for whichever car you previously had?
#1 Powergrid
http://www.powergridinc.com/swaybar.asp

#2 CorkSport
http://www.corksport.com/corksport-mazdaspeed-3-front-adjustable-swaybar-end-links.html

#3 DIY
http://www.thkstore.com/category/In_Stock/652
http://www.midwestcontrol.com/

Racing Beat also has some nice ones.

http://www.racingbeat.com/Mazda-3/Sway-Bars.html

Upon further review, I’ve narrowed it down to DIY using THK joints. It seems pretty universal from every source that Powergrid links are the bee’s knees. Their secrete seems to be using THK joints; the money (quality) is in the joints. Quality ball joints will give you the adjustability without the harshness /noise conventional rod type end links are associated with. Powergrid end links are essentially DIY (but done by someone else) with a mark-up. In fact, their products look very much like DIY, unlike the name brand ones that are nice and shiny with their logo imprinted. Any input?

Excerpt from RX8 forum said:

Well I might be just a tad biased because I work for THK but I am being honest when I tell you there isn't a better link on the market. I am not here to spam for THK though just wanted give some advise if you do choose to use THK links get the resin lined ones.

I am responsible for the testing of the links and when we test the resin ones we do it without grease and they last more life cycles then anything available on the market. Of course they are sold with grease in them. The grease by the way is a certain type of Shell alvania which reacts to temperature changes accordingly.

Also because the bearing is cast in the link instead of press fit they are truly round. As far as strength goes the minimum allowable tolerance for tensile testing is 2800 KNF and for stud ball push off (or break) is 3500 knf. The weld is so strong that when we do the break test we actually break inside the ball leaving it concave.

Again not trying to sell links for one thing we only sell to OEM's not sure how Power Grid and companies like them are getting the links. If you can figgure it out you could build your own much much cheaper.

Oh yeah there are no internal springs to reduce noise in the metal type (Non-Resin) We very tightly control the axial and radial clearences which in turn helps control noise and load. In the resin links clearance is very minimal and due to no metal to metal contact no noise. The cut away above is of a metal link I will get some more drawings posted if anyone is interested of resin links so you can clearly see the advantage.

Click to expand...

So I think I got the parts list down. Unfortunately THK does not sell rigid rods/links or jam nuts and I can't get a hold of anyone over the phone to check. I can source the remaining tidbits from MCP but shipping from both is a killer!... Total cost for parts + ship for this DIY build = ~$100 - YIKES! PowerGrid's asking price doesn't sounds "so" bad afterall..


Some of you guys are handy and may be able to help. Question, anyone know where can I get thread rod and jam nuts (using proper grade steel) for cheap (considering shipping cost)? It is extremely difficult to find metric nuts/bolts in local B&M stores... Grainger sells this stuff in packs of 50, which I don't want/need.

Threaded Rod (M12 x 1.75): 2 x ~280mm length
Jam Nuts (M12 x 1.75): 2xLEFT and 2xRIGHT drive, ideally with a flare base but not absolutely necessary.

What are you referring to as a "local B&M store"? Selection at Home Depot/Lowes is going to be poor, probably non-existent for things like metric all-thread.

Try your local Fastenal or similar, they almost certainly will have (or can get) whatever you need, in the quantities you need.

i would save myself the headache and just get replacement OEM links.

why do you think you need adjustable links? regardless which links you specify and use, you will get some noises. its just the nature of the product. If you really need adjust-ability, get the racing beat adjustable.

Silent is lowered on adjustable coilovers, so unless he has set the ride heights perfectly, there will be some pre-load in the swaybars that can be eliminated with adjustable endlinks. Alternately, if he intends to ever corner-weight the car, adjustable endlinks are a requirement.

sac02 said:

Silent is lowered on adjustable coilovers, so unless he has set the ride heights perfectly, there will be some pre-load in the swaybars that can be eliminated with adjustable endlinks. Alternately, if he intends to ever corner-weight the car, adjustable endlinks are a requirement.

Click to expand...

i understand all that, but with a car like the mazda5, as soon as you load it up with 2-3 people and a driver, or load it up for a road trip, all that preload adjustment goes right out the window. I would still recommend either OEM links, or the heavy duty racing beat links.

sac02 said:

What are you referring to as a "local B&M store"? Selection at Home Depot/Lowes is going to be poor, probably non-existent for things like metric all-thread.

Try your local Fastenal or similar, they almost certainly will have (or can get) whatever you need, in the quantities you need.

Click to expand...

Awesome find/suggestion! This is exactly what I'm looking for. I only know of Home Depo/Lowes and metric is near non-existent. I've always been under the impression hardware stores like Fastenal only exists in the South and Mid-West where there are more DIY'ers as most farmlands and manufacturing are located out there. I'm super excited Fastenal is a chain that exist not too far from me! This is now one of the my favorite stores! Do you know of any other good stores for DIY'ers? E-beer for you (drinks)

For reference, MCP sells jam nuts for ~$5 EACH (granted grade 8 or class 10.9), while Fastenal have approved vendors selling jam nuts for <$.50 EACH (grade 4). WOW!... Still have to figure out the threaded rod. They only sell 1 meter length (cut to size, good for trial and error I suppose) but cost more than 2 280mm from MCP.

njaremka said:

i understand all that, but with a car like the mazda5, as soon as you load it up with 2-3 people and a driver, or load it up for a road trip, all that preload adjustment goes right out the window. I would still recommend either OEM links, or the heavy duty racing beat links.

Click to expand...

Funny you mention load variation! This is one of the reason why I am going after THK, specifically. Why do you recommend Racing Beat over the other aftermarket?? Purely my opinion but Racking Beat is junk. I'd much rather suggest CS or JBR (not sure if they offer one) or something of that line. If you read up on PowerGrid's links, you'll see every single review says they are awesome. You can have adjustability WITHOUT any noise. Secrete is in the balls. The easy way to do it is to buy PowerGrid but they cost ~$190 (or something in that ball park) but what fun and learning experience (and savings) would you get out of that…

BTW, say 4 people x ~150 lbs = 600lbs. This is cabin weight so gets distributed between the front and rear axle. The springs are rated, crap I don't recall -say ~400lbs/in??, so the car is probable lowed a few fractions of an inch perhaps?

Couple of points:
-The YS end link mount points are lower, guestimate by ~1", than the mounts on the stock shock body. This would put a lot of pre-load on the FSB. Granted, this changes after lowering it some. YS probably considers this fact so start with a lower mounting point.
-OEM links are quite good and do not create noise and can account for load b/c it is a ball design that offers a good, guestimate 10-15%, rotational movement. This allows the link to still work properly when under load yet no noise (unless dry grease)! If you are lowered AND on stock links, this would put a lot of stress on them. Whereas the conventional design ones will lead to pre-load right out of the box and should only be used on racing applications where static weight fo the car does not change.
-THK joints work just like OEM but offer the ability to stick in whatever rod length you choose AND is built tougher, which benefits if you use a stiff bar.
-Pre-load is bad, nuff said.
-Re-read post #3 to understand the difference between conventional links (Racing Beat) vs ball joint (THK and OEM) links and the advantages of ball links.


I firmly believe a car can be lowered, handle well, and still ride nice. I also believe that the suspension works as good as it’s weakest link (doh). I'm trying my best to balance my setup. The biggest unknown being how well these YS perform.

yes, preload to the sway bar is bad. BUT, you only get preload on the sway bar when one side of the car is higher than the other. if the car is level, then no preload.

i suggested the racing beat because they do not use a through bolt. they use a sealed bearing end. you may get no noises from the bearing end, but you will get noises from the through bolt.

Silent, sorry if I'm misinterpreting your post, but from what I heard you just say about lowering putting stress on the FSB: keep in mind that you will only pre-load or stress the ARB if you have a ride height difference left-to-right. Ride height changes from stock (like dropping the front 2" with c/o or any lowering spring) will have no effect on preload or stress (again, as long as they are even L/R). The mounting point for the link also will have no effect, as long as they are equal L/R. An equal drop L/R will just rotate the bar down around its pivot axis (the axis running through the two mounting bushings on the chassis side).

EXCEPT for the case when lowering or moving mounting points causes the bar to rotate down to the point when it starts contacting control arms or things like that, but that's a totally different issue, that's not pre-load. Also, if you lower the car and the ARB arms go from near-horizontal to some angle, the bar will be effectively slightly stiffer due to the angle the force is being applied.

The thing I like about the OEM and DIY links are that you know exactly what you are getting (either OEM quality for those links, or actually choosing the materials (steel grade of the rod for example) for the DIY option). When sourcing a third party part, you have to have faith that they chose good materials - which may be true for a quality part, or very untrue for a poor quality part, and you have to make the subjective judgement on which part is high and which part is low quality.

Here is the rambling, only slightly-related part of the post:
The main thing that concerns me about the DIY option is the long length of all-thread. In the engineering world, long thin members in compression are a bad idea from a deflection and buckling point of view. The equation for buckling is dependent on (for a round cross section) material modulus, length to the second power, and diameter to the FOURTH power - meaning that shortening the link will make it stiffer/stronger, but geometry is the even more critical criteria. If I did a DIY link, I would try very very hard to make the diameter of the rod the same or thicker than the stock link. For example, if those joints you pictured were available with a male shank instead of female, that would mean you could use a larger OD piece of internally threaded rod/tube and have a significantly stiffer endlink. But this whole paragraph can be ignored if your new endlink is both shorter and thicker than the stock link (I have no clue if the stock link is larger or smaller than 12mm cross section). Unless you start increasing the forces involved (more aggressive cornering, especially if you go to stickier tires), then you might need something that much stiffer/stronger than stock.

edit: looks like njaremka had the same understanding that I did about your comments about pre-load/stress in the bar. He just used a lot less words than me. But that's normal.

sac02 said:

... Also, if you lower the car and the ARB arms go from near-horizontal to some angle, the bar will be effectively slightly stiffer due to the angle the force is being applied.

...The main thing that concerns me about the DIY option is the long length of all-thread...For example, if those joints you pictured were available with a male shank instead of female, that would mean you could use a larger OD piece of internally threaded rod/tube and have a significantly stiffer endlink...

Click to expand...

@ both, I appreciate the responses so I can understand more. I am new to CO and messing with links so I may very well be wrong -about everything. No, I’m not saying weight affects pre-load. That was my poor attend to rationalize njaremka’s comment that pre-load goes out the window when weight is added. My logical was that an example of 600lbs of “distributed cabin weight” (since we are not talking about 4 people bunched in one corner) should have very little affect in the grand scheme of dynamics.

So, perhaps I’m not saying it right or I misunderstood but I was under the impression that the geometry of the link–to-bar should be vertical and as close to 90* as humanly possible? This is what I’m really trying to accomplish and though was also called pre-load or an element of it. Guess not What is this called (see pic 1, figures A and B)?
My goal is to use adjust the end-link to account for the height difference that is lost due to the lower mounting point. My plan was to simply measure the base of the shock (where it seats flush to the knuckle) to link eye for both the stock and YS shock and subtract the difference. I would then adjust this value from the 12" that is the stock end link for said difference. Are you guys saying this is not necessary?
Scenario 1



These are very good point to be weary of for DIY build which I am also very mindful of. The THK are not available with male ends, only female. I think I can accept a lower grade jam nut but not the rod. I did notice Fastenal’s only offer fully threaded rods while MCP offers sold rods with only threaded ends. MCP offer much higher grade steel as well as various grades for their products. I think I’m enamored by THK’s links and really want to us them. The other pieces are just where ever I can get the best for the best price; price driven but really it is not so much. For me, it comes down to buying PowerGride links or making my own.

Have a look at my list (paying attention to dimensions/sepcs) and let me know what you think?...
View attachment THK Model BL and BL EndLink Specs.pdf


Any and all feedback is welcomed.

I will get back to the other points you made above when I get home, but I just realized a flaw in your current DIY design:

You can't just stick a LH threaded jam nut and LH treaded balljoint on a RH threaded piece of all-thread. I think I understand what you were going for - an endlink that you can simply rotate to adjust without removing the balljoint from the ARB or strut - but you will not be able to accomplish that with your listed piece of M12 all-thread.

You will either need a significant redesign to your link to include RH AND LH threads on the rod (or convert the design to use some sort of turnbuckle, which I don't particualrly like form a stiffness POV), or simplify the design to use only RH thread parts and accept the fact that you'll have to disconnect one end to make adjustments. The LH/RH redesign will result in a more expensive and (IMO) functionally inferior link, whereas using only RH parts will simplify and reduce costs at only a minor increase in difficulty (you only have to set the endlink lengths once, then forget it unless you start making more rideheight changes).

sac02 said:

I will get back to the other points you made above when I get home, but I just realized a flaw in your current DIY design:

You can't just stick a LH threaded jam nut and LH treaded balljoint on a RH threaded piece of all-thread. I think I understand what you were going for - an endlink that you can simply rotate to adjust without removing the balljoint from the ARB or strut - but you will not be able to accomplish that with your listed piece of M12 all-thread.

You will either need a significant redesign to your link to include RH AND LH threads on the rod (or convert the design to use some sort of turnbuckle, which I don't particualrly like form a stiffness POV), or simplify the design to use only RH thread parts and accept the fact that you'll have to disconnect one end to make adjustments. The LH/RH redesign will result in a more expensive and (IMO) functionally inferior link, whereas using only RH parts will simplify and reduce costs at only a minor increase in difficulty (you only have to set the endlink lengths once, then forget it unless you start making more rideheight changes).

Click to expand...

The build sheet was composed using MCP threaded rods (TR12-280), which is 280mm total length end-to-end. 90mm on each end is threaded, middle 100mm is solid/round, and one end is LH while the other is RH. I only quickly checked Fastenal's site and also noticed I did not see LH AND RH ended rods. Figure I need to look a bit harder?

http://www.midwestcontrol.com/part.php?id=1473

I'm curious why you say it would be cheaper to do a all RH build? The cost for the parts, be it LH or RH, are the same from what I can see. If cost is a non-factor (same), which would you prefer: LH + RH or RH + RH?

Another idea: get a longer MCP rod (TR12-400 or 500) to get more solid/round middle section! You can always cut the threaded ends to a smaller size and the end link(s) themselves provide additional length buffer. This would net more solid rod in the middle section. Price is about the same.

Ah, I see. I thought you were looking at just a piece of all-thread rod, like this:


That dual RH/LH threaded rod with solid center section (the one you already spec'd) appears to be a very good solution for what you are looking for. Just picturing the stock link in my memory, I'd guess that the diameter of the rod on the stock link is less than 12mm, so you should have no durability issues with that 12mm rod you spec'd.

For the "redesign" that I had in mind before I understood what you meant, I was thinking you'd need a piece of RH threaded rod, a piece of LH threaded rod, and a turn buckle like this:

in order to work with simple all-thread rod.

Or something like this:


But I prefer what you've already got.

Since I now understand what you meant, I agree you are correct that there would be no price difference in building a RH/RH link vs a RH/LH link.

My thoughts on the RH/RH vs RH/LH thing: I might consider making a RH/RH link if you don't plan to need adjustability very often. For a RH/RH link you would obviously still want to put a jam nut on each end, but you wouldn't ever have to worry about the link growing or shrinking if the jam nuts came loose. But I don't think that would be a critical aspect of the design, either way would function fine. Do you know if that rod you spec'd will have wrench flats? If it doesn't, then the easy adjustments of a RH/LH design might not be so easy if you can't get a grip on the rod to turn it.

Regarding your question about how to size the link, you are exactly right - size the new link to account for the new mounting position on the strut, the goal being to place the ARB arm as close to the stock position as possible. Nice illustrations, btw, very easy to understand what you meant.

Ok, glad to know we are on the same page. We also established I am very bad at explaining myself (red YS install thread where u and Rod thought I was talking about the top) .

The MCP rods should have wrench flats but they clearly say "it may or may not" (I think this depends on if you go LH/RH or RH/RH <- not useful. Nonethelss, nothing a long handle tongue and groove plyers can't fix.

For me, it not so much the ability to frequenlty adjust it but rather the ability to fine tune my adjustments. Since there will be a jam nut on both ends, I don't see shrinking an issue but there is the possibly of growing but I highly doubt it since there are jam nuts.


I have two more scenarios i'd like to discuss. Need to get on the computer first.

Scenario 2

Scenario 3

Hope the pics do a better job than me trying to explain things



For CO users (in my particular case YS COs), the formula to size the front link would be 12" (stock link size) - X" (difference in strut mounting points) + Y" (difference in ride height).

I could see this being the reason why CO shock bodies use a lower mounting point. They anticipate user lowering their car to "somewhat" offset the bar height. I do think they are trying to make it so you can reuse the stock link BUT everyone will do a different height so there is no way they can make it perfect. In theory, If I lower the ride height to match the EXCAT height difference as the YS's lower mounting point, I could reuse the stock 12" link. If the difference is minimal, I can still use the stock links as long as it is within the rotation degree of the link ball (hence more degree movement = more tolerance). If reusing stock links and they are at/near full extension (ball reaching max on both ends), this leads to broken links, noises, etc. Am I off?


Back to why I want LH+RH. I want to be able to simply loosen the two jam nuts and adjust the link to get it just right. Whereas, if I go LH or RH all-rod, I need to be sure I have exact measurements. Otherwise, I'd have to take it off-on-off-on repeatedly to get it right. I don't plan to make frequent height adjustments - looking to do one and done.

Seems I can't pass inspection with the FSB disconnected. Apparently I will lose control, crash, and burn (or something to that affect). Should have told me that two years ago

I could easily get my sticker elsewhere but this made me think back to the adjust. end link discussion. I decided to use this excuse to build the end link and apply what I've learned. I'd also like to have a comparison base on no FSB vs. stock FSB on a FWD.

Note: please don't disconnect your FSB.


Can a fellow '06-'10 owner with stock suspension (worn shocks is ok, must be stock springs) measure the clearance from ground to fender for the FRONT? If possible (not necessary), identify the tire dimensions and tire pressure.

I never took this value before (see sample below) and need it to figure how long of an end link I need. Thanks in advance