MAF vs. MAP

the race truck MAF could flow upto 2,500 cfm. How much power are you looking to make? If it is more then 1,200hp we can go upto 4,000 cfm. That would cover 2,800hp, do not think the front axles can handle it.

Turbulence has not been a problem for over five years in the aftermarket MAF world.


Thanks again



Later........Nick
 
MPNick said:
MAF is the only way to go for any street car and should be used race cars. The MAF will read how much air is going into the motor.
...Snip...
We built and ran a Ford Ranger ProRWD truck for the last two years. It had a 2.3 Turbo that would have made over 1000hp if it could be tuned right. One of the main sponsors is Electromotive. They did all of the tuning for us on and off of the track. The TEC-III will not work with a MAF so we stuck and had to take a trip back in time and use a MAP sensor. They would tune it this week and next week the air got colder and the tune was off. After a retune we would go back to the track in a few weeks and this time the air was hotter, now it needs to be retuned again.

This is a very common problem with the MAP system and aftermarket computers. The MAF meter will read the airflow into the engine. If it is a hot day the air is different they on a cold day. The same is true on a dry day or a rain day. All of the factors will be seen by the MAF but not the MAP. Once you dial in a MAF system you can leave it alone. With the MAP you will need to retune as the weather changes.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry, but I find this post to be a bit on the ignorant side.
Why? Because from personal experience with my Wolf3D, I know that standalones do use a MAP sensor, but also employ a Air Temprature Sensor that measures the air temp and thus adjusts the fuel map accordingly.

Go back in time and use a MAP? I think you're still stuck in the past.
 
With the WOLF3D or any other system including mine, you cannot read the humidity and barometric pressure with a MAP sensor. This is why I like the MAF meter.

I know a few BMW guys who spend alot of time doing club days at tracks. They removed the stock airflow meter and go to a Alfa-N system.[they replace the meter with a MAP sensor] They dyno and make good power, the stock meter is small. If the track is at near sea level the car runs good. However the car runs rich above sea level and when they go to Watkins Glen and hit the higher ground the car runs like crap. Why does this happen? The tuner that dyno tunes the system is near sea level.

If you like the system you now have and do not mind tuning for weather and other chages a lot of times that is great. I am tring to point out that the main thing that people did not like about the MAF meter is that they were small. That is no longer the problem.

Back to the future, why has most of the OEM companies gone from MAP to MAF?


Thanks again


Later............Nick
 
Here's a picture of the 80mm MAF meter that Nick has. You can see how big the opening is and see that there are no restrictions there. I have mine conected to a 3" pipe goin straight to the turbo compressor.
/members/Bigg Tim/maf_1.jpg
/members/Bigg Tim/maf_2.jpg
/members/Bigg Tim/intake_1.jpg
 
Last edited:
MPNick said:
With the WOLF3D or any other system including mine, you cannot read the humidity and barometric pressure with a MAP sensor. This is why I like the MAF meter.

I know a few BMW guys who spend alot of time doing club days at tracks. They removed the stock airflow meter and go to a Alfa-N system.[they replace the meter with a MAP sensor] They dyno and make good power, the stock meter is small. If the track is at near sea level the car runs good. However the car runs rich above sea level and when they go to Watkins Glen and hit the higher ground the car runs like crap. Why does this happen? The tuner that dyno tunes the system is near sea level.

If you like the system you now have and do not mind tuning for weather and other chages a lot of times that is great. I am tring to point out that the main thing that people did not like about the MAF meter is that they were small. That is no longer the problem.

Back to the future, why has most of the OEM companies gone from MAP to MAF?


Thanks again


Later............Nick
Click to expand...

http://www.kemparts.com/TechTalk/tt11.asp

http://faculty.eicc.edu/dhanan/ep2/NOTES3.TRP_files/NOTES3.TRP.htm (click on part2)



That should elaborate on how a MAP sensor deals with differences in altitude.

Thanks. Come again.
 
Oh....

http://www.hitman.hm/e6k.htm

Haltechs have an internal baro sensor.

My Wolf3D has an internal MAP sensor. If I choose to use the internal or an external MAP sensor, it still gets the data for altitude differences. If I use an external MAP sensor, it will use the internal MAP sensor for barometric readings. If I use the internal MAP sensor, it will still get the baro readings at idle and WOT.
 
correct, most decent ecus have built in barometric pressure sensors which in conjuction with the other sensors will allow you to tune for everything but big shifts in humidity if i'm not mistaken.

thankfully thats something i don't have to deal with here and it isn't that significant anyway for a part-time racer/daily driver......
 
I took a look at the Wolf 3D system, I like the part where you calibrate the MAP for 0. This seems to adjust the MAP sensor the atmospheric pressure. It would seem that you would calibrate the MAP for the atmospheric level that you are tuning at.[sea level, 1,000 ft or what ever]. Again what hapens what you drive into a different atmostphere?

I did not see anywhat to adjust for humidity changes.

The Ford MAP sensor do work as the spec sheets show. There are two problems. You need a Ford computer to have them work like that. Also the BARO sensor that Ford used was only on the 1.9 and 2.3 EFI turbo engines. Also all of the turbo engnes had Vain Airflow Meters on them to read airflow.

Yes most OEM ECUs do a good job of adjusting for atmostphere. I am not sure if any aftermarket ECUs that is using a MAP can adjust for atmostphere and humidity.


Thanks again


Later.......Nick
 
Bigg Tim said:
Here's a picture of the 80mm MAF meter that Nick has. You can see how big the opening is and see that there are no restrictions there. I have mine conected to a 3" pipe goin straight to the turbo compressor.
/members/Bigg Tim/maf_1.jpg
/members/Bigg Tim/maf_2.jpg
/members/Bigg Tim/intake_1.jpg
Click to expand...


Damn, that thing is big...

That is on MPNick's car? what system do you run Nick?
 
you're right about the humidity like i said earlier, you can't adjust for that but its not a major problem for most of us (not at all in nz). The BARO sensor (not the map) that comes internal to most aftermarket ecus will send difference signals as your altitude changes from where it was tuned.
 
Yes the Haltech unit does have a Baro sensor. If you are planning on running it or an external map as a baro you can do it. You just cannot hook it up to vacuum or boost. It must stay open to atmostphere. For a load sensor you would need to use the TPS in place of the map.

If check out pages 73-76 in the Haltech manual, they will tell you that if you tune at sea level you may need to retune for higher levels.

How is humidity not a problem for the car that is driven every day rain or shine?

This is getting old, if you love the map please stay with it. Please try to keep the info straight on what realy is going on.



Thanks again


Later...........Nick
 
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