Out of Control Traction Control??

T

Tom95134

Member
:
Mazda CX-5 GT with Technology Package
I have 2014 CX-5 Grand Touring FWD with about 26k miles. All services have been handled by a Mazda Dealer.

Tonight, while returning from Antioch CA to San Jose CA via I-680 I had a very scary situation that came out of the blue in the hills region.

It had been raining heavily and traffic was fairly heavy. For most of the time I had Speed Control engaged at 60 mph but based on the surrounding traffic I would disengage Speed Control and use the accelerator to slow down or speed up. I had noticed that on occasion there had been a feeling of momentary loss of traction. This happened mainly when changing lanes or transiting a deeper puddle.

I had been driving for about 5 minute using the accelerator to control speed and as I was at just about 60mph (the setting on the Speed Control) I started to change lanes and at about the same time engaged the Speed Control.

THIS IS WHERE THE SCARY PART STARTS.(flame)

The car immediately decelerated and at the same time the Tach reading went up to about 6k. I tried to recover using the accelerator but this only made the situation worse because the sped would increase and then decrease. I turned on my Emergency Flashers and managed to make my way over to the curb lane without crashing in spite of the fact that most of the traffic was at about 50~60mph. Once I got to the curb lane I stopped. Then I slowly accelerated up to about 40mph in the curb lane and merged into the right-hand lane once I was confident that I had regained speed control. From this point I did not re-engage Speed Control and was able to drive at about 60mph so I could return home.

I have NEVER had this happen before. It was raining heavily and there was water on the road but I didn't see any spots where it was running across the road like a river.

Let me say, THIS IS NOT ACCEPTABLE and I hesitate to think what might have happened if I had been an inexperienced driver in this situation.

I hope I am not alone in experiencing this and Mazda had developed a software fix for the problem.

I firmly believe this was caused by a conflict between the Traction Control, Speed Control, and feed back coming from a wet surface.
 
Sounds like you were fortunate to avoid an accident! You know what everyone says about Californians driving in the rain right?

You should't drive 60MPH in heavy rain. The momentary loss of traction that you were feeling were your tires literally floating on top of the water. If you ever feel a loss of traction like that again, let off the gas because you are going WAY too fast for conditions.

You don't need a "river" flowing across the road to hydroplane. All it takes is high speed and a thin layer of water on the road.
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Any "experienced driver" should know that using cruise control on slippery roads is VERY dangerous.
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Tom95134 said:
I have 2014 CX-5 Grand Touring FWD with about 26k miles. All services have been handled by a Mazda Dealer.

Tonight, while returning from Antioch CA to San Jose CA via I-680 I had a very scary situation that came out of the blue in the hills region.

It had been raining heavily and traffic was fairly heavy. For most of the time I had Speed Control engaged at 60 mph but based on the surrounding traffic I would disengage Speed Control and use the accelerator to slow down or speed up. I had noticed that on occasion there had been a feeling of momentary loss of traction. This happened mainly when changing lanes or transiting a deeper puddle.

I had been driving for about 5 minute using the accelerator to control speed and as I was at just about 60mph (the setting on the Speed Control) I started to change lanes and at about the same time engaged the Speed Control.

THIS IS WHERE THE SCARY PART STARTS.(flame)

The car immediately decelerated and at the same time the Tach reading went up to about 6k. I tried to recover using the accelerator but this only made the situation worse because the sped would increase and then decrease. I turned on my Emergency Flashers and managed to make my way over to the curb lane without crashing in spite of the fact that most of the traffic was at about 50~60mph. Once I got to the curb lane I stopped. Then I slowly accelerated up to about 40mph in the curb lane and merged into the right-hand lane once I was confident that I had regained speed control. From this point I did not re-engage Speed Control and was able to drive at about 60mph so I could return home.

I have NEVER had this happen before. It was raining heavily and there was water on the road but I didn't see any spots where it was running across the road like a river.

Let me say, THIS IS NOT ACCEPTABLE and I hesitate to think what might have happened if I had been an inexperienced driver in this situation.

I hope I am not alone in experiencing this and Mazda had developed a software fix for the problem.

I firmly believe this was caused by a conflict between the Traction Control, Speed Control, and feed back coming from a wet surface.
Click to expand...

How many miles on your tires?

Traction control will always reduce power when the tires lose contact with the road due to hydroplaning. Even a vehicle without traction control will quickly scrub speed when hydroplaning, even if you stay on the throttle. The primary difference is that TC and DSC likely prevented you from spinning out. That was smart of you to not re-engage the cruise control in such conditions. From the sound of it, the only thing you did wrong was attempt to use cruise control in such conditions (and going too fast for road and tire conditions).

Never underestimate the danger of hydroplaning!
 
If I remember correctly.. the condition of the road (between Pleasanton & Fremont) on I-680 is pretty crappy. Definitely should have driven slower, especially in the rain.
 
Excerpt from the FAA pilot handbook of aeronautical knowledge -
"In plain language, the minimum hydroplaning speed is determined by multiplying the square root of the main gear tire pressure in psi by nine. For example, if the main gear tire pressure is at 36 psi, the aircraft would begin hydroplaning at 54 knots (~62mph)."
 
Chris_Top_Her said:
Excerpt from the FAA pilot handbook of aeronautical knowledge -
"In plain language, the minimum hydroplaning speed is determined by multiplying the square root of the main gear tire pressure in psi by nine. For example, if the main gear tire pressure is at 36 psi, the aircraft would begin hydroplaning at 54 knots (~62mph)."
Click to expand...

That formula is useless for cars. Minimum hydroplaning speed changes with vehicle weight/load and also with tire width and tread design/depth. None of those factors are accounted for in that formula. I have hydroplaned below 40 mph before which is why I am not a fan of wider rubber.
 
Tom95134 said:
I have 2014 CX-5 Grand Touring FWD with about 26k miles. All services have been handled by a Mazda Dealer.

Tonight, while returning from Antioch CA to San Jose CA via I-680 I had a very scary situation that came out of the blue in the hills region.

It had been raining heavily and traffic was fairly heavy. For most of the time I had Speed Control engaged at 60 mph but based on the surrounding traffic I would disengage Speed Control and use the accelerator to slow down or speed up. I had noticed that on occasion there had been a feeling of momentary loss of traction. This happened mainly when changing lanes or transiting a deeper puddle.

I had been driving for about 5 minute using the accelerator to control speed and as I was at just about 60mph (the setting on the Speed Control) I started to change lanes and at about the same time engaged the Speed Control.

THIS IS WHERE THE SCARY PART STARTS.(flame)

The car immediately decelerated and at the same time the Tach reading went up to about 6k. I tried to recover using the accelerator but this only made the situation worse because the sped would increase and then decrease. I turned on my Emergency Flashers and managed to make my way over to the curb lane without crashing in spite of the fact that most of the traffic was at about 50~60mph. Once I got to the curb lane I stopped. Then I slowly accelerated up to about 40mph in the curb lane and merged into the right-hand lane once I was confident that I had regained speed control. From this point I did not re-engage Speed Control and was able to drive at about 60mph so I could return home.

I have NEVER had this happen before. It was raining heavily and there was water on the road but I didn't see any spots where it was running across the road like a river.

Let me say, THIS IS NOT ACCEPTABLE and I hesitate to think what might have happened if I had been an inexperienced driver in this situation.

I hope I am not alone in experiencing this and Mazda had developed a software fix for the problem.

I firmly believe this was caused by a conflict between the Traction Control, Speed Control, and feed back coming from a wet surface.
Click to expand...

Have some questions....

1. Is the car FWD or AWD?

2. Did you observe any lights or warnings on the instrument cluster when this occurred? Like if the transmission when into a LIMP MODE?

3. Did you feel any tire spin or slip?

4. What tire pressures are you running?
 
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Base on what you are telling us, you changed lanes, resume cruise control causing an acceleration, then the car immediately lost speed, adding throttle worsened the situation. Sounds like hydroplaning to me. Perhaps as the car went over the white stripes or bumps it started to slip? Also if your tires are pretty worn, it is nearly impossible for TCS to save the vehicle.
 
CX5_Pete said:
Base on what you are telling us, you changed lanes, resume cruise control causing an acceleration, then the car immediately lost speed, adding throttle worsened the situation. Sounds like hydroplaning to me. Perhaps as the car went over the white stripes or bumps it started to slip? Also if your tires are pretty worn, it is nearly impossible for TCS to save the vehicle.
Click to expand...

Yes, this should be a good warning and reminder and even caution for those whom do not know that you must not use the cruise control when in rain/mud/snow/gravel

 
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Agreed, classic hydroplane. 26k on the original Toyos means you don't have much tread left. I think those tires harden a bit too over time. Mine have been squealing more from a stop than they used to. Check your tire pressure also.
 
I am really surprised at how fast these tires wear out. I guess I was spoiled by my last truck. Those tires didn't need replacement till about 132,000 miles. Same for the brake pads.
 
CX5_Pete said:
I am really surprised at how fast these tires wear out. I guess I was spoiled by my last truck. Those tires didn't need replacement till about 132,000 miles. Same for the brake pads.
Click to expand...

I bet you were NOT spoiled by your trucks road grip when cornering or braking hard! I've found tires that last over 60,000 miles always have sub-par margin of safety for performing avoidance maneuvers, even on dry, warm pavement, not to mention in the cold/wet.

Good tires are worth it which is why I don't like most tire chains like Les Schwab, etc. because they pass off a lot of low-medium end tires as good quality but don't even stock the tires I consider superior in terms of driving experience and safety, they will special order for you but then you're dealing with an even higher markup. Most people just buy the run of the mill stuff off the rack. The good stuff, ordered on line costs, about the same as the stuff these chains try to pass off as premium tires.

They also train their salespeople to equate tire life with quality. Nothing could be further from the truth. It's easy to make a cheap tire last a long time but grip will suffer. A great tire has great grip while maintaining good tire life. I won't look at tires rated for extra long life and some tires rated for middle of the road life have sub-par grip.
 
mazdadude said:
Yes, this should be a good warning and reminder and even caution for those whom do not know that you must not use the cruise control when in rain/mud/snow/gravel

Click to expand...

Good video (even if it was made back in the 1960's when America was much more socialist than presently). I bet the video was government funded too.

Good memories (although I am happy to be rid of those ill handling cars of the 1960's-1980's). It was common for people to get seasick (or car sick as we used to call it back then) and I felt a twinge of nasea just from watching the cars body motion in the vid! I am thankful for the Japanese and especially the European competition that forced Detroit to take automotive engineering and handling/braking more seriously. Back then, in America, you could sell a car simply because it's big V-8 made 195 HP! But they wasted much of the power produced and were still slow (but Americans thought they were bad-ass, LOL!). Slow down for the corner or you're gonna lose control and be maimed or dead! Ah, the "good ol' days"!

If your engine/transmission made it to 100,000 miles you had bragging rights. By then you would have gone through a radiator, two water pumps, one-two alternators, one or two windshields, four-six fan belts, 34 oil changes, 17 sets of points/condensers, 17 air filters, two broken window cranks, eight sets of headlights, lots of brakes, etc. etc. etc.

At least parts/insurance was cheap.
 
The scary part begun with your second paragraph, using cruise control in the rain. The frightening part is that we have to share the road with you.
 
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mazdadude said:
Have some questions....

1. Is the car FWD or AWD?

2. Did you observe any lights or warnings on the instrument cluster when this occurred? Like if the transmission when into a LIMP MODE?

3. Did you feel any tire spin or slip?

4. What tire pressures are you running?
Click to expand...


#1. The car is FWD.

#2. No warnings at all. The forward speed just suddenly reduced. Tachometer revs jumped to about 6k and I did notice that the gear indicator in the Tac Cluster showed "3" instead of "D".

#3. No at the time I felt no tire spin or slip.

#4. Running the standard tire pressures. No I don' under/inflate to try to get a softer ride.

-----The tires have about 22.5k on them and I would expect them to be good for another 5~8k before they get even close to the ware-bars. More of my driving is city driving.

In looking back I probably shouldn't have been using Speed Control but my other car is a Prius (2005) which has 100% Traction Control and I have been in similar conditions using Speed Control.

My speed was about the same or slightly less than surrounding traffic.

I know what hydroplaning feels like and I'm careful especially in heavy rain. What was disconcerting (dangerous?) was that the speed reduction was quite drastic. I didn't feel a loss of control but I was scrambling to get out of the way of following traffic and as far right as possible.
 
First, I get a kick out of some of your comments....conditions were poor, heavy rain, busy traffic, I'm careful......yet you have the cruise set at 60mph, an "experienced" driver would know better.

That being said, with all these computerized vehicles, sensors for everything, it would be really cool to try this in a controlled environment. A big open ice surface, set the cruise, make some tight turns, get into a skid, and see which system would take over. Traction control trying to slow you down, cruise trying to speed up, what would happen? Does one system override the other? Just curious how the computer determines what to do?
 
TCS overrides cruise control (they're kind of the same thing if you think about it, so same module). Could be it detected slipping and dropped gears to enhance traction. This would create an engine brake effect and decelerate you. Just because you didn't feel slipping, or remember feeling it, doesn't mean it didn't happen. CX-5's high compression engine means engine braking is quite apparent.

The lesson learned here is don't use cruise control in the rain as it can set you up for unwanted surprises. I bet even if you had the TCS engage, but were under manual control, you would not have been as startled. I find it hard to compare what another car would do because of the endless variables involved. You hit a slick spot in just the right fashion.
 
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Tom95 "In looking back I probably shouldn't have been using Speed Control but my other car is a Prius (2005) which has 100% Traction Control and I have been in similar conditions using Speed Control."

Your heaver Prius has narrow tires that press the water out of the tire/road interface better than the lighter CX5 that has wider tires. What is the tire pressure in your Prius?
 
MikeM. said:
That formula is useless for cars. Minimum hydroplaning speed changes with vehicle weight/load and also with tire width and tread design/depth. None of those factors are accounted for in that formula. I have hydroplaned below 40 mph before which is why I am not a fan of wider rubber.
Click to expand...

The same is true in that situation as well; that's just a generalization "in plain language".
 
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