No Start condition

J

Jperera

:
2002 Mazda Protege LX
Log: March 19/2015

Guys I need some help.. I stored my protege over the winter but I made the mistake of not filling up the tank till dec 2014. In Dec I topped it off with winter gas and added fuel stabilizer to the tank. I'm trying to start the car now and its not starting..

I've redone my haltech wiring, checked for spark(its there), and listened to the fuel pump with a stethoscope (I can hear the motor or w.e starting in the fuel sending unit while cranking), checked voltage on all inj wires (11.6-11.8 on all 4 while cranking for 3 secs), checked voltage on fuel pump harness and it gets 11v to the gas light wire and 11.6v on the main thick red wire.
10410973_822656644455443_3466360656154827571_n.jpg


Log: March 23/2015

http://projectpro.jpperera.com/fuel-delivery-troubleshooting-how-to-change-2-0l-protege-fuel-pump/

Log: March 25/2015

So after replacing the pump, fuses and relay I knew that fuel was getting delivered to my feed line. So the pump, hard lines and feed are working properly.

I wanted to test my fuel rail and injectors so I did the fallowing..

Replaced the injectors first on the protege.. no start
Then I replaced the fuel rail.. no start

Removed one injector and cranked to see if fuel was flowing out of the rail. it did into the intake mani/spilled I'm guessing into the combustion chamber. Reinstalled the injector and started to crank then it almost started.


So its confirmed that injectors aren't opening when I crank the car. I tested the injector wires and they all read between 11.6v-11.8v when cranking.

I'm stumped now.. do you guys have any ideas as to what's causing the injectors not to open?
 
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Timeline

Aug 2014 - Upgraded fuel injectors to 440cc and installed turbo kit
Sept 2014 - Tuned Haltech F10 for daily driving AFR 14.5
Sept - Nov 2014 - Daily drove the car without issues
Early Nov 2014 - Started the car after storing just to run the engine
Nov 2014 - Stored the car for winter in the garage with 1/4 tank of gas without adding fuel stabilizer
Mid Nov 2014 - Tried to start the car and it would only crank (people suggested frozen lines due to storing with 1/4 tank of gas)
Dec 2014 - Filled up the tank full with winter gas and added fuel stabilizer
End of Dec 2014 - Car still wouldn't start

Waited till it was warmer to see if the fuel lines thawed out

March 19 2015 - Redid soldered my haltech wiring, checked for spark(its there), listened to the fuel pump with a stethoscope (I can hear the motor or w.e starting in the fuel sending unit while cranking), checked voltage on all injector wires (11.6-11.8 on all 4 while cranking for 3 secs), checked voltage on fuel pump harness and it gets 11v to the gas light wire and 11.6v on the main thick red wire.

March 23 2015 - Replaced the old fuel pump with new Walbro pump, removed the feed line from the rail, put it in a bottle and cranked. It was a success and the pump was working perfectly. Doing this I was able to figure out that my pump, fuel hard lines and rubber feed line is functioning properly.

I re-installed the feed to the rail and cranked while the rail/injectors were removed. No fuel squirted out the injectors. Now I know for sure its a clogged rail, injectors or FPR.

March 25 2015 - Replaced just the injectors and cranked - No fuel out the injectors (thought it was down to FPR or rail)
Then I replaced the rail with FPR and cranked with one injector out of the rail.. fuel was coming out of the rail so the rail is working fine.

Now its just a matter of why the injectors aren't working. There is spark in the injectors so I will double check the voltage on both sides of the injector connection again. Last i checked it was outputting 11.6-11.8v when cranking for 3 seconds.
 
Jperera said:
Timeline

Aug 2014 - Upgraded fuel injectors to 440cc and installed turbo kit
Sept 2014 - Tuned Haltech F10 for daily driving AFR 14.5
Sept - Nov 2014 - Daily drove the car without issues
Early Nov 2014 - Started the car after storing just to run the engine
Nov 2014 - Stored the car for winter in the garage with 1/4 tank of gas without adding fuel stabilizer
Mid Nov 2014 - Tried to start the car and it would only crank (people suggested frozen lines due to storing with 1/4 tank of gas)
Dec 2014 - Filled up the tank full with winter gas and added fuel stabilizer
End of Dec 2014 - Car still wouldn't start

Waited till it was warmer to see if the fuel lines thawed out

March 19 2015 - Redid soldered my haltech wiring, checked for spark(its there), listened to the fuel pump with a stethoscope (I can hear the motor or w.e starting in the fuel sending unit while cranking), checked voltage on all injector wires (11.6-11.8 on all 4 while cranking for 3 secs), checked voltage on fuel pump harness and it gets 11v to the gas light wire and 11.6v on the main thick red wire.

March 23 2015 - Replaced the old fuel pump with new Walbro pump, removed the feed line from the rail, put it in a bottle and cranked. It was a success and the pump was working perfectly. Doing this I was able to figure out that my pump, fuel hard lines and rubber feed line is functioning properly.

I re-installed the feed to the rail and cranked while the rail/injectors were removed. No fuel squirted out the injectors. Now I know for sure its a clogged rail, injectors or FPR.

March 25 2015 - Replaced just the injectors and cranked - No fuel out the injectors (thought it was down to FPR or rail)
Then I replaced the rail with FPR and cranked with one injector out of the rail.. fuel was coming out of the rail so the rail is working fine.

Now its just a matter of why the injectors aren't working. There is spark in the injectors so I will double check the voltage on both sides of the injector connection again. Last i checked it was outputting 11.6-11.8v when cranking for 3 seconds.
Click to expand...

Are you getting a signal from the CKP sensor?
 
I just took my miata out of storage and it was running like s***!!! It ran perfect when parked. I checked my sparkplugs and cleaned them and my wires. Not much improvement until I seafoamed it. Its good now
 
I had also stored it with a 1/4 tank of gas without stabilizer. Not saying thats whats wrong with your car, But worth a shot
 
Droopy said:
I had also stored it with a 1/4 tank of gas without stabilizer. Not saying thats whats wrong with your car, But worth a shot
Click to expand...

Droopy said:
I just took my miata out of storage and it was running like s***!!! It ran perfect when parked. I checked my sparkplugs and cleaned them and my wires. Not much improvement until I seafoamed it. Its good now
Click to expand...


Im going to replace plugs and wires this weekend. I cant even seafoam it b/c i cant get the damn thing started.

The guys on FB suggested me to check injector connectors for signal (NOID light bulb in connector test), check crank and cam sensors, check haltech wiring for continuity, clean injectors (check if the open under 12v power)
 
assuming you have a back up of the your tune re-upload it. If you're not getting a signal to your injectors it could be something with going on with the ecu. From reading your post sounds like this may be the case.
 
ap123 said:
assuming you have a back up of the your tune re-upload it. If you're not getting a signal to your injectors it could be something with going on with the ecu. From reading your post sounds like this may be the case.
Click to expand...

That could be another possibility. I've had the battery disconnected for months.

I'm going to try these tests tomorrow and hope for the better. Regarding the signal check.. Can i use any bulb or does it have to be those NOID bulbs? Reason I ask is because I have alot of these headlight, tail light, 194 bulbs in stock.

1. Injector wire signal check (light bulb test while cranking)
2. Crank/Cam sensor voltage
3. Haltech wiring for continuity
4. Clean Injectors
5. Check if injectors open under 12v or 9v battery
6. Fuel pressure test on feed/return line
 
Update

Checked fuel pressure, did a compression test, soldered Haltech wiring (all the injector wires were solid.. TPS and RPM signal wires were very loose. almost coming off the crimp connector.), The main power wire on Haltech read 11.6v on AAC, Removed plugs and the chamber stunk like fuel, Left all cylinders opened for 48hrs to evap fuel, cranked and still no start. Replaced cam sensor with working one from my p5.. still nothing.

Only thing left to do is change crank sensor from a working p5, try and establish connection with haltech. Freaking DOS F10 program is so primitive. I always get a communication error "Reconnect Haltech". SO a friend and myself prepped a laptop with DOS OS and a direct serial cable to test with.

Hopefully we'll be able to establish a connection tomorrow and get a better idea of where the problem is.

Jp
 
The crankshaft positioning sensor is the most important sensor for the car, if it is not operational, nothing will work. That being said, some standalones will not send spark signal if it does not register a trigger pattern from the crank sensor.

How did you test injectors? They atomize the fuel and only send out a very small amount every time, so you can't really see it unless you collect it in a container.

It sounds to me like you cold fouled your spark plugs, check if they spark again.
 
Pulled out the rail while the injectors wree attached and cranked. checked for fuel. Removed spark plugs and I smelled fuel on the plug. So that should confirm that injectors are squirting fuel into the chamber correct?
 
Try to swap the CKP sensor. Did it run with the Haltech fine before? Does the haltech use the stock CKP sensor? I thought it required a hall effect sensor? Even if it jumped time somehow it would likely still start.
 
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Whats a hall effect sensor?

Haltech ran fine before without issues. Tunes it about 3 times , drove the car from may - nov then parked it. Problems only started occurring when i Parked the car.

Honestly i dont think its the CKP sensor because my fuel pump is working properly. if it was the CKP sensor i wouldnt even get to crank it or get any fuel. Correct me if im wrong here.

Tomorrow i'm finally going to try plugging in haltech and attempting to communicate with the dos prepped laptop. hopefully it will go online this time.
 
My guess is the haltech. Yes I believe the ECU needs to see MAF, CKP and CMP signals to fire the coils. Hall effect sensor is a different type of sensor that the older Haltechs used to require, that may have been 4-5 years ago though.
 
Yep Haltech is the only thing I can think of to test or my timing jumped for some weird reason.

When you leave the battery disconnected for so long; do tunes get erased from EMS? is that even possible? I know the stock ECU resets back to factory settings when you remove the battery and hold down on the brake.
 
It depends how it is stored on the haltech, I don't know how they work but I would assume it would be stored on a non-volatile type memory. It really depends on how your tune was set up in the haltech. The stock set up on OEM ecu is using the cam sensor for sequential fueling. Its running wastes spark all the time.

Also it helps to know your tune because the atmosphere is different now than what it was between may and November. Different sensor readings can affect compensations enough to stop your car from starting.

As a last resort, I would try a different set of plugs. Who knows if its sparking when its under compression.
 
The_big_dill said:
It depends how it is stored on the haltech, I don't know how they work but I would assume it would be stored on a non-volatile type memory. It really depends on how your tune was set up in the haltech. The stock set up on OEM ecu is using the cam sensor for sequential fueling. Its running wastes spark all the time.

Also it helps to know your tune because the atmosphere is different now than what it was between may and November. Different sensor readings can affect compensations enough to stop your car from starting.

As a last resort, I would try a different set of plugs. Who knows if its sparking when its under compression.
Click to expand...


Thanks Phil, We're going to try starting the car later this evening. I'm going to get a new set of plugs just to be on the safe side.

When we removed the current plugs to do the compression test, they were really caked on with carbon/black deposit. I cleaned em up with brake cleaner before I reinstalled. I didnt get a chance to test the actual plugs with a ohm meter yet.

Compression test results: 1 & 4 are low but within Mazda specs for starting the car. That's something I will have to address going forward.

11106318_827444377310003_977651914_n.jpg
 
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