Fiesta banned from stock class autox, but not the 2.

Hmm... jasyatz, from what you are describing here, I guess my original plan to just swap in a set of 205 tires on 15x7.5 wheels for some autox / track day cheap fun (ie. still running on stock suspension) might not be that good after all? The last thing I wanna happen is to have the car roll over on me.

Thoughts?
 
Traum said:
Hmm... jasyatz, from what you are describing here, I guess my original plan to just swap in a set of 205 tires on 15x7.5 wheels for some autox / track day cheap fun (ie. still running on stock suspension) might not be that good after all? The last thing I wanna happen is to have the car roll over on me.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...

Not to scare you, but that sounds like a recipe for disaster. Sticky tires, soft suspension and stock ride height is the worst combination right now.

Stay on the stock wheels and tires until you get something better under you first. Others have done it, but I wouldn't recommend it. Especially if you've been "around the Autocross block" a few times.

OR put the wheels and tires on but DO NOT disable the TCS and stability assist functions (with the switch on the left side of the dash). It won't be much fun, but at least it will let you get out there safely.
 
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Hmm... not sure if I've posted this on the forum before (my memory is worse than goldfish these days...), but this was me in a recent autox outing in the 2 on stock everything:

2015-04-18%2BAX_Warm_up_18-Apr-2015_%252847%2529%2Bgolden%2Bsmiley.png

And now you have me thinking that the car will just tip over if I were to move to bigger rubber on wider wheels... (boom07)
 
Traum said:
Hmm... not sure if I've posted this on the forum before (my memory is worse than goldfish these days...), but this was me in a recent autox outing in the 2 on stock everything:

2015-04-18%2BAX_Warm_up_18-Apr-2015_%252847%2529%2Bgolden%2Bsmiley.png

And now you have me thinking that the car will just tip over if I were to move to bigger rubber on wider wheels... (boom07)
Click to expand...

Get a heavy rear sway bar and it will help greatly.
 
flatlander937 said:
Get a heavy rear sway bar and it will help greatly.
Click to expand...

Which would be more beneficial, the Corksport rear or the Racingbeat rear. They both install differently and I am pretty sure the installation methods matters a lot in a torsion bar.
 
I wouldn't do either until you got better shocks for the car, especially for Autocross. It will help with the sway of the vehicle, but sway bars are used for fine tuning of the suspension, not to solve inherent deficiencies. If you get the car in a slide, or worse a tank slapper, results could be disastrous. This was NOT a stock vehicle designed for this type of work; it's a great car, but not for this in stock form. When I first got mine, I thought about keeping it stock so I ran it ONE event to see how well it would do in HS. After just run run, I parked it and finished up the event in a MINI on proper struts. No way I'd get back in the 2 without some work on the super soft suspension. I decided right there STF was where it needed to be to keep the car shiny side up. I tried the CS struts on the stock springs, was better, but still not enough to keep the car SAFE. Then a few calls were placed to Koni about inserts in the stock strut housings. Could be done, but lots if custom fab work to get there. STF was the easy button, and a reasonable spring rate (300/250) will still make the car very livable on the street, and give you an ultra competitive regional car, that's safe to take out a on course.

If you are serious about Autocross or track days, start with the suspension first. Don't fall into the trap of nice wheels and sticky tires. Once again, others have done it, but I've been doing this 20plus years and seen my share of cars like this on their lids. Although no serious injuries came out if them, still not a fun sight to witness.

Sorry to keep preaching this, but high CG cars are getting a lot of bad press lately and I certainly don't know want to see more cars get on the exclusion list, nor do I want to see good kids ( like a lot of you on this forum) get their pride and joy upside down because of bad advice. Years ago it was Omnis,Saturns and yes even Civics. Now it's Fits, Fiestas, Mazda2s and Fiats. Let's keep the rubber side down and have fun..
 
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Your perspective and experience are certainly appreciated, Jeff. Gotta keep the shiny side up at all times.
 
Let me give you my autocross experience. I put a Corksport stiffener on the rear of my car, and it did help some.

I ran RE11's on the front and my street NeoGen tires on the rear. More than once, I lost the rear traction. Literally, I slid the car to a stop sideways. A better racer spun my car 180 degrees during a fun run (then I got better tires). But, these cars are stable and safe autocrossing with 200 class tires. Yes, I commonly get on three wheels, but so does that other racer with his Neon - and he's done it for years.

Now I run RE11's on the rear and star spec on front, with Corksport shocks. The shocks really help on the slaloms.

My advice - go have fun!
 
With a rear bar, sticky tires in front, and looser tires in the back, that is a recipe for oversteer. I am not at all surprised that a setup like that is tail happy. But this is why manufacturers recommend using the same tire all round.
 
Here is a video of a VERY VERY experienced multiple time Nationals Trophy winner on just tires with a stock MINI, the same scenarios that got the FiST in trouble that started most of these discussions( of high CG cars in Stock) http://youtu.be/RASb7IiDIZQ It's been overstated in this thread so far, but please evaluate your program before you start it. Figure out where you want to be, and select components for your goals. If you are going to run with just tires in the car, leave the TSC on.. It's a great system and driven on even sticky tires, won't let the car get stupid, but allows you to have a bit of fun in it.
 
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jasyatz said:
I wouldn't do either until you got better shocks for the car, especially for Autocross. It will help with the sway of the vehicle, but sway bars are used for fine tuning of the suspension, not to solve inherent deficiencies. If you get the car in a slide, or worse a tank slapper, results could be disastrous. This was NOT a stock vehicle designed for this type of work; it's a great car, but not for this in stock form. When I first got mine, I thought about keeping it stock so I ran it ONE event to see how well it would do in HS. After just run run, I parked it and finished up the event in a MINI on proper struts. No way I'd get back in the 2 without some work on the super soft suspension. I decided right there STF was where it needed to be to keep the car shiny side up. I tried the CS struts on the stock springs, was better, but still not enough to keep the car SAFE. Then a few calls were placed to Koni about inserts in the stock strut housings. Could be done, but lots if custom fab work to get there. STF was the easy button, and a reasonable spring rate (300/250) will still make the car very livable on the street, and give you an ultra competitive regional car, that's safe to take out a on course.

If you are serious about Autocross or track days, start with the suspension first. Don't fall into the trap of nice wheels and sticky tires. Once again, others have done it, but I've been doing this 20plus years and seen my share of cars like this on their lids. Although no serious injuries came out if them, still not a fun sight to witness.

Sorry to keep preaching this, but high CG cars are getting a lot of bad press lately and I certainly don't know want to see more cars get on the exclusion list, nor do I want to see good kids ( like a lot of you on this forum) get their pride and joy upside down because of bad advice. Years ago it was Omnis,Saturns and yes even Civics. Now it's Fits, Fiestas, Mazda2s and Fiats. Let's keep the rubber side down and have fun..
Click to expand...

Ah yeah I guess I had crap all seasons when I had just a rear bar :p was a lot of fun though!


FWIW I don't think strut inserts in stock housings are even possible as they are 1.75" OD, and my Koni inserts are 1.75" OD... Needing a 2in OD housing for 1/8in tubing. Unless Koni makes smaller diameter(probably 1.5ish OD) inserts I'm unaware of.


I think BCs or Fortune Auto coilovers(with different rear springs as theirs are not stiff enough) are the easy button.
 
And it would get even easier with this. coilover perch mounted 5" spring adapter.
cadf8de6007bd2474b92f921846dc0ee.jpg

Have it threaded for your coilover of choice( but it has to have a threaded body adjustment to get it to stock front strut length). Run it up to stock strut height and have it "fixed" with a lower coilover lock and run the stock spring. Have the struts revalved for stock spring rates and have at it. For the rears, the Fortune and BC (as well as some others) offer rear shocks length adjustments to get within stock class rules..

$900 and done fully adjustable (single knob but dual adjustment) struts/shocks with valving and spring rates suited for HS.
 
Thanks for the video, Jeff.

Lemme see if I got this right regarding what happened:

- 0:51 -- car comes out of high speed section
- 0:52 -- car turns left
- 0:53 -- both driver side wheels lift, driver screams, immediately tries to correct with steering
- 0:55 -- driver side wheels land back on the ground

I have to say I am quite surprised by the video though. It seems pretty obvious to me that the driver was coming up to the turn at speed. It is not obvious to me whether she has braked or not before going into the turn, but the turn seems quite gentle and open to me. I would not have expected a curve that gentle to cause both wheels on one side to lift...
 
There was a dip driver left at the turn in point, she broke trying to get in deep, and at turn in, hit the dip and turned in all at the same time. Like I've said before, others have done it, but if all the planets align and everything happens at once, even the best can get caught out. An inexperienced driver may not have reacted the way she did, and instead of releasing steering when she got the car light, continue on the same path and result in a wheels up disaster.

But you saw exactly what I saw. I ran the same course that day and was on the throttle at the same place at turn in because it WAS a wide radius turn and had plenty on track out to carry speed.
 
those off camber turns are literally the kill zone.

Havent experienced any off camber turns yet in phillyscca, or the south jersey scca auto x but f I do, I am definitely avoiding them somehow.
 
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