Startup Oil Consumption

What do you reckon'?

  • Valve Stem Seals

    Votes: 5 62.5%

  • Cylinder Head

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Head Gasket

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Piston Rings

    Votes: 2 25.0%

  • Engine Block

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Other

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Remove radiator cap, drive new car under

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • F' the smoke, drive her into the ground!

    Votes: 1 12.5%
  • Total voters
    8
  • Poll closed .
1

125865

I know I know, this had been addressed many times but I'm really on the fence for what's wrong with this thing and seeking insight or ideas I haven't tried to nail down the actual problem.

The Car:
2003 Protege5 Wagon, 170k miles, manual trans, no mods
As far as I can tell original engine and trans but I bought it at 120k so who knows...

The Problem:
Smokes on cold starts, consuming about 2qts every 2-3 weeks. I drive about 10-12k a year, so that's probably 700 miles?
When I first got the car it didn't have a smoking problem and it started about a 9-10 months ago, and it's been getting slowly worse.

History:
One of the first things I did was a compression check and got 220 on the first, and 180 on the rest. Did it dry and wet with no significant difference.

After verifying with my meticulous friend that it doesn't smoke after startup I went ahead and did the valve stem seals with a Fel-Pro set but it didn't solve the problem. I did notice all the seals appeared to be the same (closely inspected any notifying markings on the seals and no difference). Since then I've learned there were apparently supposed to be different seals for intake and exhaust...

I've never had a chocolate milkshake, and it's manual so no strawberry either. PCV valve has been changed a couple times even after verifying it works with the suck and blow test. Ran some seafoam through the engine for a few hundred miles recently to see if there would be any change and it didn't seem to make a difference either direction. My last oil change I also put in a quart of lucas and changed the spark plugs to NGK v-power and now the thing smokes even worse!

The Smoke:
It's not white, but it is pretty light in color and has a stronger smell to it. I've seen coolant burn and it certainly ain't that puffy white cloud. I do seem to use up what's in the coolant reservoir in about 2-3 months so there may be some coolant leaking out or burning off slowly, but no drips on the ground. Only other possibility I could see for the smoke would be fuel but I don't have long cranks or gas fumes so that seems to be normal.

So, that's my deal, anyone have thoughts? Ideas? Diagnostics I haven't run? Anyone had that higher number 1 compression before?
 
i dont know much (seriously), but have you had a hydrocarbon test? i believe that definitively tells if the head gasket is in need of some sweet, sweet, mechanic love.
also, you could get a UV kit and try a leakdown test.

and i guess it wouldnt hurt to get an oil catch can (something, i recently did).

that is a buttfull of oil to lose
 
I've gone through the same thing with mine recently (150K). Upper/lower oil pans, main seal, valve stem seals, pcv valve replaced twice, compression test checked out so rings were out of the question at the time.

Still leaking oil. And the smoking exhaust was SO obvious in the mornings prior to the valve stem seals being replaced. Now it only does it on occasion, but is STILL burning oil like crazy. No visible leaks.

I came across a thread, I believe was here, where someone had the exact same issues. I showed it to my mechanic (who is also stumped/frustrated about all of this) and he asked around with guys he knows/rebuild shops- and it's a rare, but not impossible, that the oil rings on the pistons are shot. The pressure will indicate things are fine, but those rings are sneaky and not something you'd think of. Since we did all the other trouble shooting prior to this, he's now going to work on the piston rings. Had we known prior, I would have done a straight up engine swap. :(

Hope this gives you some insight. I've looked all over the place for feedback on the same issue and so far, this is the only probable cause at this point.

It all started with what seemed to be the upper oil pan seal... *sigh*

I'm getting it worked on in the next 2 weeks, so I'll let you know how it goes.

eta- forgot to mention that the head gasket was also redone when I had the valve stem seals done (valve stems were cleared as okay too). Spark plugs were replaced, as was the spark plug wires.
 
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what oil are you using? syn ? or dino?

mine burn a lot on synt oil and very little when on dino oil.

it burn more with 10-30 , 10- 40 burns less....

i got about 240k
 
Hey everyone, I certainly appreciate the input.

surfninjas - I swear I had replied to this before but apparently not... Hydrocarbon test isn't a bad idea, you mean the block tester? or getting an oil sample test? I worked at a city and we got oil sample tests on diesel trucks that would actually point out issues before they became obvious.

sc122002 - I read that post too and that's my concern with yanking the head and coming across the same thing. After looking around it seems like this is a common issue on these proteges (and probably all FS motors). Hopefully you get your motor squared away, but I'm also in anticipation for how that turns out.

brandini - I actually had a leakdown tester in my possession on Friday but ran out of time to use it after getting my AC working again (priorities :p). I was lucky enough to have my AC clutch vanish, not sure if it was stolen or fell off, but neither seems tremendously likely... Anyways I do want to do that, hopefully that will point something out.

hotcracker69 - I use conventional oil, 10w-30 like original, been using that valvoline regen just cause it's been the cheapest. I figure burning that much there's no sense in putting expensive stuff in.

But I have updates! Before replacing the AC compressor I took a look at it with my meticulous buddy in the morning, cold, and before letting the factory smoke out. Pulled the plugs and looked down the cylinders and found it to appear surprisingly clean, dry, and not a lot of carbon in any of the cylinders but the plugs had a nice coating of white on them even though they'd only been in a few weeks at that point. He suggested pulling the first O2 sensor and that was also covered in white. So despite what I originally thought she's burning coolant, just not very fast. However apparently I've struck a nice balance of coolant and oil where it's not getting in the oil pan but it's cleaning my cylinder(s?). Aside from the head/head gasket or IAC anywhere else coolant can get in these motors?

Also just came across this, apparently a well noted problem http://mazda626.net/topic/14223-smoking-tail-pipe/
 
Well, I just got my car back last week. It was the rings. It was not anything major, like they were destroyed or anything, but he could see where the oil was seeping past the rings. So my engine has basically been rebuilt and should be good to go for awhile (I hope).

I'm also going to stick with conventional oil (10-30) as synthetic was the start of all these oil issues I had. :/

I've only had it a week though, so I'm still breaking it in and seeing how it does. It's been getting better and better the more I drive and it makes me happy! I missed my car! *hugs her P5*
 
sc122002 said:
Well, I just got my car back last week. It was the rings. It was not anything major, like they were destroyed or anything, but he could see where the oil was seeping past the rings. So my engine has basically been rebuilt and should be good to go for awhile (I hope).

I'm also going to stick with conventional oil (10-30) as synthetic was the start of all these oil issues I had. :/

I've only had it a week though, so I'm still breaking it in and seeing how it does. It's been getting better and better the more I drive and it makes me happy! I missed my car! *hugs her P5*
Click to expand...

So, oil defied gravity and crept up the cylinder walls past your oil control rings and into the combustion chamber?

What has been "getting better"?
 
sc122002 said:
Well, I just got my car back last week. It was the rings. It was not anything major, like they were destroyed or anything, but he could see where the oil was seeping past the rings. So my engine has basically been rebuilt and should be good to go for awhile (I hope).

I'm also going to stick with conventional oil (10-30) as synthetic was the start of all these oil issues I had. :/

I've only had it a week though, so I'm still breaking it in and seeing how it does. It's been getting better and better the more I drive and it makes me happy! I missed my car! *hugs her P5*
Click to expand...

Synthetic didn't cause your issues and thinking it does means you're just going to wear this engine out faster by choosing to use an inferior oil.

Use a 5W-30 and your start-up will be easier and you'll build oil pressure much faster to ensure less start-up wear.
 
Preferio said:
So, oil defied gravity and crept up the cylinder walls past your oil control rings and into the combustion chamber?

What has been "getting better"?
Click to expand...

It does seem like it's defying gravity but you're supposed to have a layer of film all the way up the cylinder with the piston so it's not dry metal on metal and then the oil scraper ring pulls it down each time. If there's any buildup on the rings, a gap, or they're just worn out this doesn't happen and the piston drops faster than the oil returns to the pan. The unusual part of his concern is that the compression was still good in the motor cause typically that's the bad ring indication. It's still possible the valve stem seals weren't properly replaced, or even like mine they weren't a good set but it's irrelevant. You've got your car back and no smoke!!

Now, my weekend was spent swapping the head which admittedly was a bit of shotgun solution since; my stem seals didn't seem to fix it, I had valve train noise, and it seemed like it was even some pinging under load. Found lots of carbon in the motor and white buildup on the exhaust valves from some super slow coolant leak into the cylinder that wasn't showing up in my oil. No visible blowouts on the head gasket or head which isn't surprising considering I didn't have drive-ability concerns outside of those noted above. I spent the better part of my second day cleaning oil out of the intake and cleaning carbon of the pistons (scrubbing bubbles and brillo pad, no joke!). Then got it buttoned up yesterday and started it up with a vacuum leak that was at least mostly coming from my injector seals to the manifold (which didn't come with my fel pro head set, just the seals to the rail...). I was able to pull it clean them off and lube them to at least run right but still gonna replace those.

The results:
Day 1 and no smoke on startup! I'm gonna change the oil today and get all that lube I put on the cams and stuff out of the motor, then pay close attention to any oil consumption to see if I'm still burning it off. My cylinders looked pretty good and I could still see a nice cross hatch in the walls so I'm hopeful the majority of my problems were top end.

Going to post some pictures for anyone interested too, just gotta actually get them on my computer.
 
I have been going through 1-2 qts per week.
Im really glad I found this thread, I guess ill be doing some engine work very soon...
Time to drive the truck again!
 
ZackN said:
I have been going through 1-2 qts per week.
Im really glad I found this thread, I guess ill be doing some engine work very soon...
Time to drive the truck again!
Click to expand...

Well stay tuned, cause she's smoking again. My bliss was pretty short lived.
 
This is part of why I don't want to tackle this job. There's a lot of theory on what the issue is, but no solid proof. I don't want to essentially rebuild this engine and not fix the issue. This piece of junk is hardly worth the oil I poor in it every fill up.

It still doesn't make sense that visible smoking only on start up is caused by the rings. If the oil rings are so worn (or stuck like in the above link) that they aren't even touching the cylinder walls, then it should smoke the same amount on start up as it does 60 seconds later. It doesn't seem that 60 seconds is enough time for thermal expansion to cause better sealing like the author of that post suggests.

There's clearly more oil in the cylinders on start up than at any other time of the engine running. Why is that? It just seems like only the valve seals could cause that. Maybe I should pull the plugs right after my commute, observe the amount of oil, and then check it a few hours later. If oil gathers in that time period, it must be from the seals.

The things that go wrong on this car just blow my mind. It's like Mazda is off in their own ignorant world reinventing (incorrectly reinventing) the wheel. For Pete's sake, the science behind sealing oil from the combustion chamber is well developed as evidenced by the millions of cars that don't burn oil! What the hell were they thinking? Did they even bother to benchmark?

And don't give me that crap about how it's the owner's lack of maintenance or driving habits causing the difference. If it were, you would see this problem on large percentages of all vehicle models. You don't.
 
Last edited:
Maroon said:
It still doesn't make sense that visible smoking only on start up is caused by the rings. If the oil rings are so worn (or stuck like in the above link) that they aren't even touching the cylinder walls, then it should smoke the same amount on start up as it does 60 seconds later. It doesn't seem that 60 seconds is enough time for thermal expansion to cause better sealing like the author of that post suggests.[\quote]
Rings expand with heat, and so does the block and cylinder which then reduces clearances. The most amount of clearance in our situation is on a cold engine.
There's clearly more oil in the cylinders on start up than at any other time of the engine running. Why is that? It just seems like only the valve seals could cause that. Maybe I should pull the plugs right after my commute, observe the amount of oil, and then check it a few hours later. If oil gathers in that time period, it must be from the seals.
Click to expand...
Answered above but of course it never hurts to look and get more info.
The things that go wrong on this car just blow my mind. It's like Mazda is off in their own ignorant world reinventing (incorrectly reinventing) the wheel. For Pete's sake, the science behind sealing oil from the combustion chamber is well developed as evidenced by the millions of cars that don't burn oil! What the hell were they thinking? Did they even bother to benchmark?
Click to expand...
The fact that is not common means it is a maintenance issue, whether it be oil ran too long, crap oil, crap filter, or otherwise. It's *more* common on Mazdas older engines because of the oil ring drain issue and their love of synthetic which would break down more slowly. But you're not getting quality products at a 19.99 oil change place.
And don't give me that crap about how it's the owner's lack of maintenance or driving habits causing the difference. If it were, you would see this problem on large percentages of all vehicle models. You don't.
Click to expand...
You proved your own point, most owners do proper maintenance, many don't, those that don't usually have an issue or have a use-case that is more susceptible to oil burn at start-up before the engine can warm up (cold climates, live very close to interstate, using crappy oil, etc).
Click to expand...
 
Maroon said:
It still doesn't make sense that visible smoking only on start up is caused by the rings. If the oil rings are so worn (or stuck like in the above link) that they aren't even touching the cylinder walls, then it should smoke the same amount on start up as it does 60 seconds later. It doesn't seem that 60 seconds is enough time for thermal expansion to cause better sealing like the author of that post suggests.

There's clearly more oil in the cylinders on start up than at any other time of the engine running. Why is that? It just seems like only the valve seals could cause that. Maybe I should pull the plugs right after my commute, observe the amount of oil, and then check it a few hours later. If oil gathers in that time period, it must be from the seals.

The things that go wrong on this car just blow my mind. It's like Mazda is off in their own ignorant world reinventing (incorrectly reinventing) the wheel. For Pete's sake, the science behind sealing oil from the combustion chamber is well developed as evidenced by the millions of cars that don't burn oil! What the hell were they thinking? Did they even bother to benchmark?
Click to expand...
For the most part I love my little protege cause it's simple with just enough convenient features but I have run into a few things that just blow my mind. The tensioner system on this car is one of them, my friend and I laughed when I changed the belt on this thing and that little spring was the tensioner so you can just watch the slack move to all sides of the belt while checking the timing. I used to make a living fixing Mercedes' and do a lot of car work with a friend cause he's got a house and 3 car garage, but we were both convinced it was top end because it only happens after several hours of "marinating" and goes away within a minute or so.

pcb said:
Here's a link to more info on the "smoke at start up" issue,...

http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/show...n-cold-start&p=5504992&viewfull=1#post5504992
Click to expand...
I just read through this thing last night and I think I skipped over it the first time for some reason but there's a lot of stuff in there that makes sense, and a couple things I'm still trying to wrap my head around. I can see the gummed up ring causing the oil burn with the throttle plate closed and excess pressure and such, but the only reason I see this going away is because the cat warmed up enough to hide this problem. The idea of sufficient expansion in a short period of time seems like a bit of a stretch for me but I do intend to run through the different scenarios people have commented on to get a concrete idea of the scenario that causes the cold start smoke.

I still have to put up my pictures and even though it's still smoking, the amount of smoke has decreased and my pinging is gone. So the head didn't resolve my problem but it did make a difference in the running condition of my car.
 
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