Vehicle Speed Sensor / Input Speed Sensor / Turbine Speed Sensor Protege5 / 2002 Auto

Sailingsenses

Member
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Mazda, Protege5, Stock, 2002
Hi Mazda Protege5 people!

Okay, my Transmission is slipping into 2nd/3rd gear and the O/D light is blinking as well. I think this "downshifting" symptom is a safety measure brought on by the fact that the Pulse Generator is failing. My cheap OBII is not pulling any codes.

I also found a video online that basically shows my issue (although, my P5 is an automatic with ABS). The youtube link is below:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=sKXXlOIFQn0

UPDATE AFTER REPLACING THE PULSE GENERATOR:
- I was NOT able to resolve the above issue by replacing the Pulse Generator. This is the term used in the repair manual for the part I replaced today: FN0121550 (Automatic with ABS part number).
- The car will NOT go into Reverse now and it makes a loud clunk when I shut the engine off.
- The O/D light stopped flashing but that's probably because I didn't drive it long enough.

- For my own knowledge, are these terms equal to "Pulse Generator"?
1.) Vehicle Speed Sensor (VSS)
2.) Turbine Speed Sensor
3.) Input Speed Sensor (ISS)
4.) Throttle Position Sensor
5.) Crankshaft Position Sensor
- I've seen these terms tossed out there and according to the P5 manual, the part I'm dealing with is only called a Pulse Generator.
- I've fully confirmed that the Pulse Generator part # is FN0121550 and if you put this number into Amazon.com, you'll get Beck/Arnley 090-5047--WHICH IS INCORRECT. I ordered 090-5047 and it's a three-prong and absolutely not the Pulse Generator FN0121550.
- I removed the air intake system and NOT the battery + tray. From there, it was pretty easy to get to. CAVEAT: Be careful not to get any dirt in the sensor hole/insert.


Also, I have 266K miles and think it's probably time to change the transmission fluid. Or is it?

- Is this okay to do on a car this old? Someone told me that the car has "developed" its own tranny fluid viscosity/consistency and that fresh/new transmission fluid could completely send it to hell. Is that true? Sounds odd but logical, too.

Please address my questions.

Thank you.
N
 
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My cheap OBII is not pulling any codes.
Your reader should have pulled codes,... Our cars output their ATX trouble codes through the OBDII port and show up in the 700 range of code numbers. (Newer cars have a separate computer, port and reader for the ATX.) Did you disconnect the battery before checking your codes??
Did your speedometer work before and after replacing the Pulse Generator ?? If your speedometer was always working then I'd figure that the speed sensor was always working. Your MIL (CEL) should have been on as well as your O/D light flashing if the speed sensor failed. You should have gotten this code if it was not working:


turbine_zps62eb2c02.jpg


You really need to get your codes,... You could have a multitude of ATX problems.

atxtroubleshootc_zps5abf1a70.jpg


UPDATE AFTER REPLACING THE PULSE GENERATOR:
- I was NOT able to resolve the above issue by replacing the Pulse Generator. This is the term used in the repair manual for the part I replaced today: FN0121550 (Automatic with ABS part number).
- The car will NOT go into Reverse now and it makes a loud clunk when I shut the engine off.
- The O/D light stopped flashing but that's probably because I didn't drive it long enough.

- For my own knowledge, are these terms equal to "Pulse Generator"?
1.) Speed Sensor (ISS)
2.) Turbine Speed Sensor
3.) Input Speed Sensor
4.) Throttle Position Sensor
5.) Crankshaft Position Sensor

I'm pretty sure Speed Sensor (ISS), Turbine Speed Sensor and Input Speed Sensor are all the same thing. (Unless Turbine Speed Sensor refers to the turbo on a turbocharged car??)

The Throttle position sensor and Crankshaft Position Sensor are different.


KPSandthrottlepositionsensorlocation_zps861390eb.jpg


atxtroubleshoot_zpsb5e7cdb2.jpg

atxtroubleshootb_zps6f5177c1.jpg


Also, I have 266K miles and think it's probably time to change the transmission fluid. Or is it?

- Is this okay to do on a car this old? Someone told me that the car has "developed" its own tranny fluid viscosity/consistency and that fresh/new transmission fluid could completely send it to hell. Is that true? Sounds odd but logical, too.

I too have read that changing the ATF is a bad idea if it hasn't been done in a long time. Some guys change it slowly without a complete drain of the fluid and run it for a while then change out some more to give the car time to adjust to the new fluid.
 
Hi PCB.
Thank you for taking the time to reply here. I really appreciate it. I had the car towed to the transmission shop and here's what we know (or don't know).

1.) The shop claims that they did not pull up any codes and they want to rebuild the whole thing for 3500 USD.
2.) The only thing I replaced was the Pulse Generator and that did not resolve any symptoms that I know of.
3.) When it was getting towed, I discovered that it will NOT go in REVERSE at all AND one of the back wheels is completely locked (possibly both rears but it seemed like only passenger Rear).
4.) The O/D light stopped blinking but have not driven it again because of the no reverse situation. It appears that it will drive forward but I'm sure the stuck gear situation is still happening.
5.) I never had a Check Engine light come on at all.
6.) The ABS and Brake light have been on for a long time due to a wheel (ABS) speed sensor.
7.) It still makes an awful clunk sound when I shut the engine off.

Also, I did not disconnect the battery before trying to pull codes and the speedometer has always been working fine. FYI.

I'm at a loss and won't bother replacing the VSS now. I also don't have 3500 USD for the job and have to weigh my options. The car has a NEW MAZDA catalytic converter, battery, brakes, tires, sway bars and links (front and rear), etc etc. It's going to hurt to get rid of it if I have to.

Why would the wheels lock up? Why won't it go in reverse? I don't want to delude myself and say that it DOESN'T need to be rebuilt but I DO wish there was something I could do to repair it for much less...meaning, figure out if it's something simpler than a full rebuild.

Any further input? Did you see the video? That's all it was doing and now it won't reverse and the wheel is locked up, too.

Thank you.
N
 
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If I were you,... I would look into either fixing it yourself or finding an entire transmission at a wrecker and swap it out. Wreckers almost always guarantee their stuff. You may very well be able to find a used tranny for just a few hundred dollars.

If it were me,.. I would read the entire ATX section of the FSM to learn everything I could and check what you can yourself. It may very well be something quite simple and even free. I'm sure there's a bunch of videos on youtube that can help you familiarize yourself with the ATX.

Here's what I found in the FSM:

ATXreverse_zps84848059.jpg


You could have something as simple as a bad ground wire causing your problem. I'm sure the shop would find that out but still rebuild your entire transmission for the $3500.

There is also some $10 bottles of ATX transmission fix that might be able to free up a sticky solenoid ???

As far as the stuck rear wheel(s),.. I'm pretty sure that is a completely separate issue and your calipers need to be freed up. Probably they just need to have their slider pins greased up (I do mine every year).

If you were to try and fix it yourself, it probably wouldn't be worth any less if you got rid of it with a box of transmission parts along with it.
You should start with phoning local wreckers for prices then finding a cheaper mechanic that could do the job or even do that yourself. I'm guessing you could swap out an entire transmission from a wreck for less than $500.
 
3.) When it was getting towed, I discovered that it will NOT go in REVERSE at all AND one of the back wheels is completely locked (possibly both rears but it seemed like only passenger Rear).

Don't forget to check for a seized up P-brake cable. Check for movement where the cable attaches to the rear caliper. That connection point should rotate when the brake is applied then released.

And,.. as luck would have it,... my ABS light stayed on today so I've got some troubleshooting to do tomorrow.
I thought this info might be useful,... my code reader didn't find any codes but there is a different way to pull them...

ABSa_zpsecd5758e.jpg


ABSb_zps6158a2ed.jpg


ABSc_zps84b50703.jpg
 
Hi PCB.

This is also great info but I'm actually a novice and have only done a few super easy fixes on the car to date. I suspected the brakes because:
1.) The mechanic told me (very recently) that the calipers on that wheel are annoying to deal with and "stuck". Why the *** he didn't tell me to replace them, I don't know...
2.) I HAVE had the parking brake (cable) seize up on me before.

The thing is, it DOES drive forward. If the parking brake were engaged, wouldn't there be resistance when I drive forward, too? Or, more definitively, if the caliper was stuck, I would not be able to drive forward at all?

Grant it, ever since I got the car home, I've only driven it a few feet at a couple miles per hour up the driveway. I recall being able to drive forward with the stuck parking brake once and I could feel the pull but it allowed me to drive. Eventually, there was the burning smell and I knew the cable was seized. After arm-wrestling with it, it let go. I've tried not to use it but with the transmission acting up, I pulled it several times now to ensure that the car won't roll down my driveway.


About the transmission:
Well, the pick-n-pull in my area DOES have a 2002 Protege but the website doesn't say if it's a P5 or not. Do you know if the Protege transmissions are interchangeable across all Sedan and Wagon trims?

Roughly speaking, how long does it take to remove one? Is lifting it out *without* mechanical help even possible?

Anyway, I've taken up so much of your time already and you've been so kind. Thank you.

Sincerely,
N
 
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Did you get my PM ??? I reposted here in case you didn't. (It's your thread anyway)

As far as the brake goes,.. It is probably stuck again and you probably just need to release it,.. again. If I were you, I would just stop using it and just put a brick or something behind a wheel to keep it from rolling. It may not be engaging into park properly now but the brake is a secondary issue to the ATX. I use my P-brake all the time as I have a standard trans. and that helps to keep it operational.

You would notice that brake burning smell more than any sort of drag,... I tightened up my P-brake lever a bit too much once but didn't notice until I got out of my car and smelt that smell of burning brakes.

I checked out the link for the P-brake cable and they have some pretty good prices. You just have to be careful about getting the right part. The one brake cable was only $24 but in the listing, it's for drum brakes,... all P5's have 4 wheel disk brakes, so it shouldn't have been listed. (the P-brake for disk brakes has a T-lug, the cable end for drum brakes is threaded.)

I have never done any engine or transmission work and know diddly squat about an ATX because all my cars have been standard (the only way to drive as far as I'm concerned,... the only thing I know for sure about any new car I'm interested in, is that it has to be a standard),... anyway I just read through the ATX section of the FSM for the first time to try and answer your questions.

The more you know about the ATX the better you are at knowing what to do and how to do it and to help protect yourself against being ripped off by mechanics.

I'm in the middle of checking my ABS right now simply by following the instructions in the FSM,... apparently I have a bad connection or a short in the power supply wires or ground to my ABS control module. (The light flashed out a code 53). I just read through the info three or four times and I'm quite confident I can figure it out. I simply refuse to go to a mechanic now after being ripped off too many times,... (my mechanic told tell me both my rear calipers were seized and needed two new ones at $210 each plus labor,... after getting a computer and joining this site, reading the FSM,.. I realized the dumb ass mechanic didn't know about the adjuster screw underneath the little bolt that backs off the piston on the rear calipers,... he sold me new calipers because he didn't know what he was doing.)

Anyway,.... If I were you,... I would PM "whatusername",... he managed to rebuild his engine a few times now and knows all about pulling engines, transmissions and any other part from or for this car. He knows prices and how heavy and how long it should take to do it. I'm pretty sure he had a friend help him lift stuff out but I'm not sure.

UPDATE : I managed to get my ABS light to turn off like it's supposed to. I don't really know what I did,... I just unplugged the connector to check for B+ and ground then rubbed the codes then it started working normally. It may have been a fluke or a bad connection,... that's a good thing, they wanted $1,186.22 for the ABS control unit on-line (it lists for $1,521.11)
 
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Hi PCB.
Yes, I got the above and the PM. THANK YOU. I'm reading the service manual and trying to learn as quickly as I can, as we're without a car right now. I'll update as soon as I take further action and/or ask whatusername for help, too. You're great. :)

N
 
Here is another relatively easy thing to check,... The ATX switch might not be sending the right info to the ECU to allow it to go into "R".

ATXswitch_zpsd2ec7067.jpg
 
Hi PCB.

So, I had a reputable shop look at my transmission. The first guys were complete idiots. Ultimately, I do need to rebuild it AND the car is legitimately stuck when going in reverse. It's not a frozen caliper and it's not the hand brake cable. Oddly enough, ALL the wheels spin just find independently while the vehicle is suspended in the air but once it's on the ground, it will not go into reverse.

They pulled a lot of codes and they all spell "full rebuild":

- P0700 -> GENERIC TRANSMISSION CODE UMBRELLA, AKA Transmission control system malfunction
- P0720 -> Output speed sensor malfunction
- P0733 -> Gear 3 incorrect gear ratio detected
- P0734 -> Gear 4 incorrect gear ratio detected

They also pulled these two-digit codes (which were not in the service manual that I could find):
- Code no. 75 -> Output signal circuit of line pressure duty solenoid or resistor is open or shorted
- Code no. 74 -> Transmission Input Sensor/ AKA VSS or Vehicle Speed Sensor
- Code no. 36** -> Fault immediately after shift

**Apparently ANYTIME this 36 code appears with any of the 50 series codes it tells you there is NO electrical problem! That means, there is a hydraulic or mechanical problem inside the transmission itself, such as: Broken UD/OD snap ring / Burnt out OD clutch pack / Gear train failure

Sadly, I'm screwed here. They are going to check the engine compression and let me know if I’m done with this car. Should be hearing back soon. I would not want to come up with the $3400 USD AND another $800-900 USD for the timing belt AND then find out the engine is a loss.

The upside is that these guys want a bit less for labor and an even better/lengthier warranty of 3 years or 100K miles...which is dealership length/duration.

N
 
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Well at least you were on the right track with replacing the speed sensor.
 
Low mileage as possible motor/trans from junkyard & installation should run about half of those numbers above.
 
In case it matters, the out-the-door price with 8.75% CA (city) tax is $4550.00, inclusive of the following work:
1.) A "new" transmission (rebuild was not possible) parts and labor, with a 36-month/100,000 mile warranty. Planetary gears melted down due to low or no lubrication flow. This was causing the car not to go into Reverse and into Safe Mode. "New" one will have updated specs.
2.) Timing belt AND Water pump - parts and labor
3.) Rear ABS speed sensor - part only
4.) Crankshaft seal - parts only
5.) Three engine mounts - parts only (There are six total and only three were busted)

Well, I could go buy a used car for the 4300 dollars and the 4500 dollars I spent on the car (between last year and this year) but who knows what kind of problems I'd inherit...including the ones I ALREADY resolved on my P5. I had a new catalytic converter installed last year and now I have a "new" trans.

I do wish I had the time and knowhow to pull an old one myself...but at least I'm getting a super great warranty here and won't break my back.

Thanks to everyone who participated. I'll keep you in the loop just in case another poor soul has these issues come up and can benefit from my experience here! :)

N
 
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