Why am I pinging???

K

kicker22705

Member
:
03.5 Ti MSP
I have this pinging problem i can't seem to figure out. I've had many professional tuner looks at it, tune it, and try various things but could not pin point what is causing it.

I thought i'd make this journal so people could look at my setup, settings, and data and bounce around ideas and hopefully help me figure this out once and for all.

The Problem:

Detonation:
During my past two dynotunes (Feb and June 2007), pinging was detected on a HKS Knock Amp from the range from 3500rpm to 5000rpm beginning from 8psi. Audible pinging can be heard at 11psi.

Things I have checked/tried:
Spark Plugs: ZFR7F and BKR7E both ping
Pulled Timing: See the timing maps below
Lowered Static: Pulled it down to 5, pinged, so brought it back up to 10
Added Fuel: See AFR above in the dynocharts
Over-milled Head: Checked w/ the supervisor at the dealership overseeing my short-block install, and he told me the head wasn't warped so it wasn't milled. Only had some valves replaced.
110 octane: Mixed 110 w/ 93 and the pinging ceased. Only thing that worked so far, and it's far from a cure.

My Setup:

Engine Setup:
MAM Built Short Block
- Custom CP 8.5:1 Forged Pistons
- MAM H-Beam Long Rods
- Toga Bearings
- ARP Head/Main Studs
- OEM Gaskets
- Installed by local Mazda Dealership
- NGK BKR7E Spark Plugs

Fuel:
STi 565cc Injectors
Walbro 255lph Fuel Pump

Turbo Related:
Garrett GT28RS
Garrett FMIC 26x6.5x3.5
CorkSport DP
Thunder Manifold
Vibrant Exhaust

EMS:
Microtech LT8s

My Tune:

I dynotuned at Altered Atmosphere Motorsports on a dynojet.

My Timing Maps:

MicrotechTimingMaps.jpg


Timing Settings:
- TimingMax: +34 degrees
- OptStatic: +10 degree

Dyno Charts w/ AFR:
AAM February Dynotune (15psi):
AAM June Dynotune (11psi):
Don's November Dynoday (11psi):

Datalog and other information:

8psi
datalog7psi1.jpg


11psi
datalog10psi1.jpg

EGT: Less than 800 Celcius
Compression Check: 180-185
- note: my compression originally used to show 200-210. It now shows 180-185, but i think its b/c i dropped my compression tester and it may be off now. It showed 180-185 ever since i dropped it.

If you have any ideas/suggestions please post. thank you :)
 
Last edited:
Before I even try to look further, one thing stands out to me...the 7 series spark plugs. I had issues years ago with them where at times they would break up harshly, and other times mildly.

At times it felt as if the spark was being blown out, and at other times, it just sounded like detonation.

Either way, it will cost about $10 to swap to a 6 series plug and eliminate a possibility.

Didn't we talk about this in person?
 
you're right we did. I forgot all about it after people had me convinced it was engine resonance and not pinging.

that'll be the first thing i try this week.
 
Yeah Steve posted that he recommends the BKR6E plugs, and its what he uses in his mp3 and he said that the J&S also picked up some detonation when going with the 7 series plugs. And Dana has been using the 6 series plugs on his car without problems too. I hope u figure this out.
 
Why would you go to a hotter plug if your having knock problems. I would suggest even going to a 8.

With colder plugs you need to change them more often. They will start missing and have to be changed.

Kool - your issue sounds more related to gap size. The higher your power level you'll need to lower your gap. Atleast thats been the story with my lancer.


see if you cant find me something that looks more like this. There should be some x/y tabels hidden in that baby.

here is my map for my evo. I'm gonnna paint a line of what a pull would look like. So you can get an idea of how the timing patter should be.

keep in mind i'm 8.8:1 and 24-6psi on pump 67mm turbo.

map.jpg
 
where does your car hit full boost at?

mine is around 4500.

It looks like your timing is ramping down then back up once the car is already on full boost.


You should ramp down gradually on spoolup, then flatten and start ramping up.

Look at the first map you posted, see where it dips in your problem area..
That sir is your problem. Your changing cylinderpressures too rapidly for pumpgas.


It takes awhile to figure out but timing and knock is odd. You can run 8-9-10-11 but not 8-7-8-9
 
Ya Mike, I would def. not suggest going to the 6 series (hotter) plug if you're pinging. Go to the 8 series (remember NGK goes backwards in their numbering.) Also, are you sure of the gas you're running? I blew a motor due to a bad tank of what I thought was 91. You never know though...
 
I guess if you want the stick with the 7 series plugs try and bkr7e, since they are a step colder but not extended reach like the zfr ones.
 
kicker22705 said:
i'm using the regular BKR7E. the copper ones gapped at .025
Click to expand...

I run mine at .032, so yours should be fine... Hmmmmmmm... I suspect gas, because when you mixed in 110, it went away. I think you're getting some bunk 87 octane labeled as 91.
 
the car achieves full boost by 3500rpm. so going by what you're saying the tune looks okay, as timing begins to be pulled at 3000rpm.

i don't have a load map like that. My second map is the only load map i have for timing.

KySpeed said:
where does your car hit full boost at?

mine is around 4500.

It looks like your timing is ramping down then back up once the car is already on full boost.


You should ramp down gradually on spoolup, then flatten and start ramping up.

Look at the first map you posted, see where it dips in your problem area..
That sir is your problem. Your changing cylinderpressures too rapidly for pumpgas.


It takes awhile to figure out but timing and knock is odd. You can run 8-9-10-11 but not 8-7-8-9
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
KySpeed said:
Why would you go to a hotter plug if your having knock problems. I would suggest even going to a 8.
Click to expand...

LOL

Kool - your issue sounds more related to gap size. The higher your power level you'll need to lower your gap. Atleast thats been the story with my lancer.
Click to expand...

I could run a 7 series plug with .02 gap if I wanted to, it still didn't matter. The plugs were just too cold.

map.jpg
Click to expand...


*looks @ x axis* 300% load? huh?
 
Maxx Mazda said:
Ya Mike, I would def. not suggest going to the 6 series (hotter) plug if you're pinging. Go to the 8 series (remember NGK goes backwards in their numbering.)
Click to expand...

Guess both Steve and I were high when we figured out that the 6s work better than the 7s.

(screwy)

For nothing more than diagnostic purposes, it's worth the $10 he's going to spend on the 6s. I've tuned a boosted protege or two in my day, and I've found them to work best.
 
KySpeed said:
It takes awhile to figure out but timing and knock is odd. You can run 8-9-10-11 but not 8-7-8-9
Click to expand...

Valid point. However, it looks like he has two maps that overlap each other. One is based on boost pressure and the other is based on RPM.

I've had bad experiences tuning on the boost retard maps before, since the readings vary a bit.

You could always try hard coding the timing in the RPM scale for diagnostic purposes. It's worked well for me in the past. Actually, I'd seriously suggest you do that, and zero out the map that retards based on boost pressure.
 
Maxx Mazda said:
I run mine at .032, so yours should be fine... Hmmmmmmm... I suspect gas, because when you mixed in 110, it went away. I think you're getting some bunk 87 octane labeled as 91.
Click to expand...

From every gas station he's ever been to for the past year or so? I think that's a bit unlikely.
 
Please log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

31N007
    • Like
Off Topic 3L Swappin' Contour
2
Replies
23
Views
4K
31N007
31N007
C
Pinging...wah?
Replies
1
Views
788
tweety2300
T
Nd4SpdSe
    • Love
Nd4SpdSe's 2011 Mazda2 GS Yozora
Replies
2
Views
3K
Nd4SpdSe
Nd4SpdSe

Latest posts

Back