P5 knocking, rattling, rough idle, engine light...burned valve?

H

Harlock

Member
Happy holiday weekend to everyone, hope you're having a better time than I am. I arrived at Felton, CA. to find that when I came to a stop the engine was sputtering and knocking and occasionally rattling, and then the check engine light came on. I hobbled back to my dad's place in Gilroy very carefully at low speeds/RPMs.

When you are driving the car you can't tell there's anything wrong, until you come to a full stop and listen to it idle.

I read some threads here about the oil pump being weak and the possiblity of oil starvation during hi-G turns. I'm not insane with the car but I drive fast. I've never raced it on a track or otherwise, just normal driving.

This is a Stock P5 that I bought at the end of '03 brand new, now has 31,000 miles on it. All service and oil changes done at one dealership in Palmdale near where I live. The only mod I have done is to add an air horn, since the stock horn is so weak. Should I remove the horn before I take it in to prevent them from getting me right away on a technicality?

I would hope that at 31k they will take care of whatever the problem is, but I've been screwed really bad by another auto manufacturer before (Subaru, wheel bearing defects on the 98 - 01 Imprezas) so I am here to solicit advice and find out what's become of other folks who have had similar problems.

I am going to take it in to the Mazda dealer here in Gilroy on Tuesday when service is open again. In the mean time I am not going to drive it. Looks like I am stuck away from home on an extended vacation without car. :(

--Mike
 
Check your spark plugs. If one has the electrode pushed down, chances are that one of your intake manifold screws came loose and got sucked into the combustion chamber, and the piston pushed it up against the spark plug. This happened to numerous people on this forum. There is a technical service bullitain out for this, so it should be warranteed no problem as long as you are within warranty. My bud, Moeed, just got his car fixed earlier this month for this same thing.
 
LinuxRacr said:
Check your spark plugs. If one has the electrode pushed down, chances are that one of your intake manifold screws came loose and got sucked into the combustion chamber, and the piston pushed it up against the spark plug. This happened to numerous people on this forum. There is a technical service bullitain out for this, so it should be warranteed no problem as long as you are within warranty. My bud, Moeed, just got his car fixed earlier this month for this same thing.
Click to expand...
I just had the cold engine rattle TSB performed, and I had them check the VTCS and VICS screws. The tech said they were TIGHT! Hehe, yay, weee....:)
 
LinuxRacer: Where are these screws? They are inside the intake manifold? Are you referring to the big black plastic part that's just behind the radiator, or the next thing in line that contains the air filter?
 
They're a part of the VTCS and VICS system. Basically they hold the butterflies that open and close depending on engine air demand. Screw pops loose, gets sucked into a piston, rattles around, smacks the spark plug OR WORSE, then exits via exhaust. Rather common problem actually... You shouldn't have much of a problem but get it to a dealer ASAP and have them look at it. If they give you crap, contact Mazda North America (Corporate office).
 
OH ok, it's part of the butterfly valves. Way in there. The reason I ask is that I took off the big black plastic ducting part of the intake directly behind the radiator, to get at the electrical connection for the horn. But I put everything back perfectly and tightened everything down. I just wanted to make sure because I did that only last week and it seemed to be a scary coincidence.

-M
 
yeah. I've worked on the horn too. You have nothing to worry about - screws coming in that way would fall into the snorkel and stay there, causing a rattling noise.
 
Harlock said:
OH ok, it's part of the butterfly valves. Way in there. The reason I ask is that I took off the big black plastic ducting part of the intake directly behind the radiator, to get at the electrical connection for the horn. But I put everything back perfectly and tightened everything down. I just wanted to make sure because I did that only last week and it seemed to be a scary coincidence.

-M
Click to expand...

Nope, that is the air filter asymbly. The intake manifold is the metal "shell-looking" thing that is attached directly to the back of the head of the engine. Your throttle body is attached to it.
 
LinuxRacr said:
Check your spark plugs. If one has the electrode pushed down, chances are that one of your intake manifold screws came loose and got sucked into the combustion chamber, and the piston pushed it up against the spark plug. This happened to numerous people on this forum. There is a technical service bullitain out for this, so it should be warranteed no problem as long as you are within warranty. My bud, Moeed, just got his car fixed earlier this month for this same thing.
Click to expand...

Is there a copy of the service bulletin posted online somewhere?
 
LinuxRacr said:
Not sure that's the right TSB.
Click to expand...
You're right, it's the closest thing I could find that dealt with it. Is there an actual TSB out about what you've described? I know it's common, and there have been many discussions about it, but All Data.com doesn't have any new TSB's listed.
 
Hi, I am new to this forum. My girlfriend drives a mazda p5. It is an '03, with only 12,000 miles. We were at the mall and came out to start the car and she said it wouldn't start right. It then sputtered and tried to stall so I told her to turn it off. I asked her to turn it back on and it sounded like it dropped a valve. So we had it towed to the local dealer by mazda roadside assistance. The service writer called her and said "a screw came out of the fuel injector and scratched the piston so we are replacing the intake manifold and egr valve." What a crock of crap. So we went to pick up the car, and there is about 15 parts replaced on the RO. I don't have it in front of me, but there was inake manifold, egr valve and gasket, fuel rail, fuel o-rings, random gaskets and screws.

I asked him why he was replacing the intake manifold and he said that is what the TSB says to replace. I told him if something came loose and made its way into the combustion chamber, than he should replace the head at the very least. I hate service writers who don't know s*** about cars and try to act like they do.

Anyway, what are the normal parts that are replaced by this TSB for the swirl valve? I feel like they fixed the problem, but they are lying about what they fixed or using the TSB to cover up another problem.

Also, the mechanic said he removed the head and took out the screw, and that is how they saw the damage on the piston. Yet, there is no head gasket charged to the RO. Also, it is bulls*** if the piston is damaged and they aren't going to fix it. If a screw was able to damage the piston dome, what is to say that it didn't scratch the cylinder walls?

To sum up my post, I just wanted to find out what other owners have experienced with this rattle problem and see if they have had a similar experience. I want to find out more about this, because I am not happy with the way the dealer handled the problem.

Also, I should add some background about myself. I have been modifying cars as a hobby for the last 6 years. I am mostly involved with Honda, Nissan, and Toyota cars. I do everything from engine and transmission builds, to simple repairs. I have been learning physics and mechanical engineering in relation to IC engines for the last 2 years and I plan to pursue a degree in ME when I finish my degree in visual arts next semester.

I'll be browsing these boards from time to time, so I would love to help out anyway I can with general questions. Thanks for any help ya'll can give me here.
 
hmm most people reporting this problem have not had a screw do so much damage to a piston or cylinder walls. Most of the time, the problem is fixed before tons of damage is done. Unfortunately, this is a rather "common" problem with the VICS and VCTS system in the car. Perhaps you could have them re-examine the head and see if it needs replacement?

If you're not happy, contact Mazda Corporate. They'll generally put pressure on the dealer to quit bein jerks.
 
got the car back...

Well, finally got the car back from the dealer today. it took them a few days to get the parts from Mazda, so I've been stuck here all week.

They did the TSB work to the intake manifold (which was missing multiple screws!) but they did not tear down the engine due to time constraints (but I think they could have done it while waiting for the manifold parts???) The engine has a ticking noise and will need to be taken apart at my local dealer as soon as I get home.

The service manager was confident that I could drive home on it the way it was. (300 miles) I was a little weary of it, but I really do have to get back to work and the engine feels fine. I think the screws went all the way through. The error code that caused the check engine light was a piston #2 misfire (when the screws were still crunching around in there and you could hear it) so we know where the screws went...

He did put a lot of notes on the paperwork saying what caused the engine problems etc. to make sure that I would be covered for it. They pulled the plugs and they were fine. I had the 30k mile service done while I was at it.

He was willing to do the engine work himself but that would mean being here for another week....

Thanks to everyone for correctly guessing the problem. And let me know your opinion if you think I am ok to drive home 300 miles on the ticking engine (probably a valve messed up) and then get it serviced there.
 
743motorsports said:
Hi, I am new to this forum. My girlfriend drives a mazda p5. It is an '03, with only 12,000 miles. We were at the mall and came out to start the car and she said it wouldn't start right. It then sputtered and tried to stall so I told her to turn it off. I asked her to turn it back on and it sounded like it dropped a valve. So we had it towed to the local dealer by mazda roadside assistance. The service writer called her and said "a screw came out of the fuel injector and scratched the piston so we are replacing the intake manifold and egr valve." What a crock of crap. So we went to pick up the car, and there is about 15 parts replaced on the RO. I don't have it in front of me, but there was inake manifold, egr valve and gasket, fuel rail, fuel o-rings, random gaskets and screws.

I asked him why he was replacing the intake manifold and he said that is what the TSB says to replace. I told him if something came loose and made its way into the combustion chamber, than he should replace the head at the very least. I hate service writers who don't know s*** about cars and try to act like they do.

Anyway, what are the normal parts that are replaced by this TSB for the swirl valve? I feel like they fixed the problem, but they are lying about what they fixed or using the TSB to cover up another problem.

Also, the mechanic said he removed the head and took out the screw, and that is how they saw the damage on the piston. Yet, there is no head gasket charged to the RO. Also, it is bulls*** if the piston is damaged and they aren't going to fix it. If a screw was able to damage the piston dome, what is to say that it didn't scratch the cylinder walls?

To sum up my post, I just wanted to find out what other owners have experienced with this rattle problem and see if they have had a similar experience. I want to find out more about this, because I am not happy with the way the dealer handled the problem.

Also, I should add some background about myself. I have been modifying cars as a hobby for the last 6 years. I am mostly involved with Honda, Nissan, and Toyota cars. I do everything from engine and transmission builds, to simple repairs. I have been learning physics and mechanical engineering in relation to IC engines for the last 2 years and I plan to pursue a degree in ME when I finish my degree in visual arts next semester.

I'll be browsing these boards from time to time, so I would love to help out anyway I can with general questions. Thanks for any help ya'll can give me here.
Click to expand...

It sounds like your dealer really doesn't know whats going on. The EGR had nothing to do with the problem. There is no need to replace the whole intake manifold. I'm not sure what the TSB says, but that sounds a little extreme. There have been a few members here who got all new motors since there was some cylinder wall damage. I wouldn't worry too much about the head gasket. I've replaced my head about 10 times just this year already and I've only bought 3 head gaskets. They should have replaced it since it is dealer work, but you will probably be ok. I would make sure that you have very good notes from the dealer in case you run into any future problems that may be a result of what has happened.
 
xelderx said:
It sounds like your dealer really doesn't know whats going on. The EGR had nothing to do with the problem. There is no need to replace the whole intake manifold. I'm not sure what the TSB says, but that sounds a little extreme. There have been a few members here who got all new motors since there was some cylinder wall damage. I wouldn't worry too much about the head gasket. I've replaced my head about 10 times just this year already and I've only bought 3 head gaskets. They should have replaced it since it is dealer work, but you will probably be ok. I would make sure that you have very good notes from the dealer in case you run into any future problems that may be a result of what has happened.
Click to expand...

thanks for the reply, we think alike. I know the headgasket isnt a big deal, but it is the dealer and it would be redicilous to not replace it if they pulled the head (which I doubt)

I am going to do a compression test when my GF has some free time and check out the pistons with a bore scope.
 
743motorsports said:
I am going to do a compression test when my GF has some free time
Click to expand...

That just sounds durrrttttyyyyy.

Congrats on getting the car fixed somewhat! Good luck getting the other dealer to understand what the first one did...
 
SOB!!!! This just happened to me also with 31k miles im so pissed cause this is what I didnt want to happen and I was currently working on another manifold to remove the VTCS. I dont even know what to think I was going to take it in but I figured i would just replace the manifold and not worry about it well I was too late I should of took it in ASAP! Now I bet my s*** is all nicked up thats just great and you know they arent going to replace the motor!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sorry for the rant but I cant belive this happened another few weeks and I would have my new manifold on.
 
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