ATTN: Potential Scammer!

[Antoine]

Unfortunately I was reading another "I got scammed" thread (http://www.msprotege.com/forum/showthread.php?t=93749) and I came up with this idea...any members who are potential scammers and need to either fess up or clear their name will get a "Potential Scammer!" title...

I realize real scammers may never come back and or create a new username but it may send a clear message to those thinking of scamming that Mazda Forums will not tolerate SCAMMERS! (gun) (nuts) (bike) (smash)

* We can even start a scammer info archive? Help people match up scammers who have already hit several online communities...

Got feedback, comments, suggestions or even your own scammed story?..Post It!

[pdhaudio83]

how about new users cant post in the FS section for 30 days after they sign up too?

[FunkyBuddha]

^^^Or have a certain post count before they can post ANYTHING for sale

[noclue119]

(cool)

[RyanJayG]

the thing is, someone who has a legit reason for what appears to be a scam, migh have their reputation PERMANENTLY tarniched for what is out of their control.

I know the members of this board jump to conclusions in some cases, and then some wait TOO long to call something what it is. how would you regulate actually putting that title on someone?

[Lil Freek]

same deal as ebay or something? The seller has 30 days from the date of selling.. after that 30days, you can call SCAMMER on someone. Or maybe 2weeks to call scammer? (a month may be enough time to scam a few people)

Maybe the member that makes the complaint must have a certain post count to complain, as well.. like 100? I would say at least a 50+ post count before you can start a thread in the for sale section (cuz you have 10 posts, doesn't mean you shouldn't be able to post and buy from the for sale section)

[Giallou P5]

^^^Or have a certain post count before they can post ANYTHING for sale


i like that idea, like over 300 or so, very good idea

[NRRfrogmanP5]

i think they are all good ideas

[Giallou P5]

people are just fuckin grimey, i hate it, you get peoples hopes uop and they give an "x" abmount of dollars and u fuck people over, shit i would never do/think something of that nature

[Giallou P5]

they should only accept paypal also, cuz then u have a recors and and stop the card, then go to the credit card compmany and get the police onit

[Notorious]

This is absolutely awesome and is a positive step to get people to either pay up or send their product.

[Velocifero]

i agree with you here, i read a scam report the other day and it pissed me off that someone helped another out and sent a part for a trade, but the recipient never held up on their end of the trade, that really sucks ass, what a prick, he should be kicked in the nuts, then be stripped of all his aftermarket parts and generously be given to me. just my opinion though.

[Leadfoot]

I agree with the post count thing partially....I don't put a lot of posts up daily, so it took me a while to get my post count up. However, if you include the amount of time a person's spent on the board with thier post count, then it may work better. If an MP3 owner has been on the boards since 2001, but only has 200 posts, then they should be allowed to sell thier springs or what not.

Does that make sense?

[TX Speed Demon]

i like that idea, like over 300 or so, very good idea

I don't know about that. I've been here almost a year longer than you, but have a much lower post count. This will only lead to additional post whoring.

I think the time deadline is a better alternative.

[TX Speed Demon]

I agree with the post count thing partially....I don't put a lot of posts up daily, so it took me a while to get my post count up. However, if you include the amount of time a person's spent on the board with thier post count, then it may work better. If an MP3 owner has been on the boards since 2001, but only has 200 posts, then they should be allowed to sell thier springs or what not.

Does that make sense?

makes sense to me. Combo sounds good.

[benimal]

Here's a somewhat radical idea: Put up a basic guide for buyers and sellers. You know... proper etiquette for buying and selling on the forum. Include information in there about how to prevent yourself from being scammed and what can be done about it outside of the forum (i.e. ebay or paypal policies, credit card co policies, etc).

That would probably make people feel more comfortable that immediately giving someone like me the ability to label a long-time member a scammer. There are some people on here who do do bone-headed things when it comes to buying and selling. Education and guidelines should be the first step in correcting the problem, not putting more labels on people.

Ben

P.S. I do agree, though, with the time requirement for selling items. I don't know that I agree, though, that there need be the same requirement for a buyer.

[theice]

As a member of a couple years with just a miniscule post count, I have bought a few things via the forum, and hope to continue, and perhaps sell later as well.

All I'm saying is a post count minimum, for buying or selling, will hurt a member like myself.

Thanks for the consideration and...... F THE SCAMMERS!

[SEA_P5]

I am in the same boat, I believe longivity is the best vs. post count.

[memo79]

Yeah, I agree:

Forum member >/= x months Example: 6 months
AND
Post count >/= x posts Example: 100
AND
Use PayPal ONLY.
AND
Post their location under their avatar.
and not "BFE" either. a legitimate location, ie city and state

[memo79]

I am in the same boat, I believe longivity is the best vs. post count.

So if someone has been a member for 1.5 years with a post count of 2 they should be OK?? Someone could easily activate an account, go scam elsewhere for 6 months, then return and scam here next.

[Jliao]

I "personally" don't think limiting the seller with limited post counts or days in order to sell his/her stuff is a good idea. For example, sometimes people come here for legit sale but is also their first time here. I, for one been through this situation. I was trying to sell my rims couple months ago. Knowing that my rims can also fit on RSX, and luckly the RSX forum didn't limit this rule where new user can't sell stuff. As of result, I was able to get rims off my hand. IF, the RSX forum did enforce such a rule, I doubt I would be able to sell my rims even now because I'm not an active RSX forum reader.

So, what do I think we should do? I think we should enforce new poster that's interesting in selling stuff provide the admin/mod with personal contact. Then, have one of the admin/mod calls him to verify his interest in selling the item?

Anyway, just my $.02

[memo79]

That's not a bad Idea, either.

[benimal]

I "personally" don't think limiting the seller with limited post counts or days in order to sell his/her stuff is a good idea. For example, sometimes people come here for legit sale but is also their first time here. I, for one been through this situation. I was trying to sell my rims couple months ago. Knowing that my rims can also fit on RSX, and luckly the RSX forum didn't limit this rule where new user can't sell stuff. As of result, I was able to get rims off my hand. IF, the RSX forum did enforce such a rule, I doubt I would be able to sell my rims even now because I'm not an active RSX forum reader.

So, what do I think we should do? I think we should enforce new poster that's interesting in selling stuff provide the admin/mod with personal contact. Then, have one of the admin/mod calls him to verify his interest in selling the item?

Anyway, just my $.02

What do you consider a "new poster?" If I understand you correctly, a "new poster" will be someone who has been a member for either a short time, or is not very active in making posts/contributions. In some sense, I am a "new poster" cause I've been on the boards for 1 1/2 years, but haven't sold anything on here. My rep points are at the base level.

I think having an admin/mod contact each new person that wants to sell something is a bit intrusive and makes more work for the mods. What if the mod contacts the seller and then the seller turns out to scam someone? Do we then "fire" that mod, removing their admin/mod rights and privileges? That's not really a far-fetched scenario.

If a person is in a hurry to sell something, put it on ebay or have a garage sale. If they can wait a little while, then put it on the forums. You gotta pay to play, and here paying is putting in your time as a trusted member of the community.

Ben

Ben

[MSPguy]

im not sure i agree with the post count either. ive been a member for a while now but i dont post much because well... i dont really know much to be giving imput and when i have a question, i just do a search and i can find the answer. i go on the forums everyday to see if there is any new info on our car or new product coming along. but if i ever sell anything, i dont want to be called a scammer because of my post count.

but then again i am not sure i can trust the longetivity thing either because i person can become a member a long time ago but never browse the forum then all-of-a-sudden just come back in a year or two and try to sell something and then scam a person.

i guess what i am trying to say is that there is no possible way to know when you will be scamed. i dont want to be labeled as something that i am not. just got to trust the seller. if you cant, then dont buy from the person. when it comes down to it, you dont really know who is going to scam you. just my .02

[pdhaudio83]

its a tough call.

[Jliao]

What do you consider a "new poster?" If I understand you correctly, a "new poster" will be someone who has been a member for either a short time, or is not very active in making posts/contributions. In some sense, I am a "new poster" cause I've been on the boards for 1 1/2 years, but haven't sold anything on here. My rep points are at the base level.

I think having an admin/mod contact each new person that wants to sell something is a bit intrusive and makes more work for the mods. What if the mod contacts the seller and then the seller turns out to scam someone? Do we then "fire" that mod, removing their admin/mod rights and privileges? That's not really a far-fetched scenario.

If a person is in a hurry to sell something, put it on ebay or have a garage sale. If they can wait a little while, then put it on the forums. You gotta pay to play, and here paying is putting in your time as a trusted member of the community.

Ben

Ben

When I meant "new poster" as people that just signed up (no signature, no avatar) and with post counts below 10 or even 20. We usually can tell.

Like you said -- "you gotta pay to play," then be prepare to get contact and provide your personal information incase of anything happen. If the person end of being a scammer, hopefully we can report to the local police with the contact info. In addition, putting on ebay or garage sale sometimes won't give you the best value you can get than selling it on car forum. For example, local pickup? and incase you missed it, recently ebay has raised the price of listing price by double (or around that). In another word, if you were to sell a set of rims for $1600 with old comission fee estimating of $46 (how much mine was), then now it would be $80 almost $90 for the comission fee.

Of course, there AREN'T any "BEST" way to avoid scammer. But this is the best I can think of. I'm sure Antoine and other admins are open for suggestions.

What are the source of capturing this scammer?
1. his personal contact info (full name, address, phone #, alternative phone #)
2. Paypal
3. Maybe call him/her again right before the transaction is going to happen? dunno..

[SkinnyJoint]

yea time is way better cuz then there just going to whore it up but i think its an excellent idea

[Antoine]

Great responses so far...but it seems clear that post or time limits are not reliable enough to use as a scammer deterrent...How about a few simple rules that must be followed to in order to conduct non-AV/AMM related sales...don't follow the rules...NO SALE!...I don't care how sweet the deal is (too sweet is often a rip anyway).

Rough Draft...

Non-Authorized Vendor / Approved Merchant Member For Sale Rules

You must have a pic of the item for sale with proof it's in your possession (pic includes sign with date and or some other form of proof...ex: Mazda Forums 1/19/05)

You must provide a phone # for potential buyers to contact you...

You must have at least 1 trusted Mazda Forums member vouch for you

All 3 rules can be required or even just the 1st two...We can't have a verification process that's too extensive or inefficient...it will be counter productive.

I think those rules could make a real difference BUT THEY MUST BE ENFORCED...no half ass moderating!

What do you guys think?

[blizzard]

Well, seeing as I think I was kinda the catalyst for this post I think I might venture my 2¢.

Firstly, speedmo21 did come through with my money. He refunded me at 10:30 my time this evening. One month and 18 days since I sent him the money. Regardless, I now have my money back.

I think the issue we may have is the same that ebay and any other online for-sale forum has. Even if all requirements are still met, you can still have someone scam. speedmo21 had over 200 posts, and has been registered since Nov 2003. I am not sure if all the attention about scams got him to refund my money. I'd like to give him the benefit of the doubt, and say that he was just busy and he was still waiting to see if I got them (he maintains they were lost in the mail).

I don't think post count really has much bearing on anything (as Antoine posted above) because you could have someone come on here and post 200 times in 5 days then try and sell $5000 worth of shit then disappear. On the other hand time on a forum doesn't guarantee that someone is trustworthy. And as someone else has said above, it could limit a genuine seller. As a buyer I'd hate to lose a killer deal on some parts because someone couldn't be bothered to wait the required 30 days or whatever (sorry, I know I can't have my cake and eat it too :) ).

Can you not make it mandatory for users to give you more information if they want to post in the for sale forum. Then the users can choose if they want to show this info below their avatar. If someone comes to be in the same situation as I was in, they could contact a For Sale Mod, and get the seller's info, and at least have some more recourse. This would not reduce a person's privacy on here because they would still be able to choose to show that info or not.

Any how, everyone has had good suggestions. I think any more rules than are in effect now will be better!

Thanks for making this thread Antoine. I hope it helps people in the future, and makes the buying/selling process more safe for all users.

[SkinnyJoint]

honestly there are always going to be problems if someone wants to scam there is always a way to do it. but by enforcing a couple of rules that will take it down a bit, and make it a little bit more difficult. Whatever you decide on i think it can only benefit :) :D

[FunkyBuddha]

This is a good idea too. I say a combo thing.

The post count thing I pitched was so that you can view the quality of their posts. Say he's been a member for 3 years and has 200 posts. You can pretty much judge their quality of posts. So make the minimum post count to sell something around 100 or 200 posts. You can make a safer judgement by viewing their posts within the boards. If they just post whore to get to 200 posts in order to sell something...dont' buy from them.



Great responses so far...but it seems clear that post or time limits are not reliable enough to use as a scammer deterrent...How about a few simple rules that must be followed to in order to conduct non-AV/AMM related sales...don't follow the rules...NO SALE!...I don't care how sweet the deal is (too sweet is often a rip anyway).

Rough Draft...

Non-Authorized Vendor / Approved Merchant Member For Sale Rules

You must have a pic of the item for sale with proof it's in your possession (pic includes sign with date and or some other form of proof...ex: Mazda Forums 1/19/05)

You must provide a phone # for potential buyers to contact you...

You must have at least 1 trusted Mazda Forums member vouch for you

All 3 rules can be required or even just the 1st two...We can't have a verification process that's too extensive or inefficient...it will be counter productive.

I think those rules could make a real difference BUT THEY MUST BE ENFORCED...no half ass moderating!

What do you guys think?

[SpicyMchaggis]

Why don't you just log their IPs for future re-registering of scammers?

[nictlg7]

I hope this is somehow regulated and verified? Often there is confusion or misconception, or even just miscommunications. You wouldn't want to label someone negatively and lose them from the site, if they only had one deal with some miscommunication. We all know that the people who have been happy with deals on here rarely step up and say how well things went. So the person might be 9-1, good to bad...and the one bad may not even be as it appears. It may just be crossed signals or any number of things beyond their control. That is just my opinion, though. I understand why you are doing this and I agree with the motive behind it. I just hope there is an "innocent until proven guilty" policy in effect. Thanks for listening to be blab...(enguard)

[benimal]

Is there any way to track the number of "For Sale" threads created by a person? Ideally we would want a way to distinguish between the GI, FS, WTB, WTT threads out there. I would think that could be done with some mandatory field at the time a new thread is opened in the For Sale section. Only real FS threads would increase some "For Sale post" counter. Then someone can see how many times a user actually opened a FS thread.

Or maybe... FS reputation points... lol

Doesn't prevent people from creating multiple ids, but it helps people out who have more to sell and tend to be more reputable.

Ben

[jrodhotrod]

There is always the "trader rating" kind of system that I have seen on other forums. It's kind of like Ebay feedback where folks get the chance to rate the other person after taking part in a "for sale" transaction.

At the very least it would keep people from scamming multiple folks.

[Shane5425]

why dont we just get an approved seller list and only people on that list can post in the for sale area.. to get on the list, you would have to go through a moderator..

[benimal]

There is always the "trader rating" kind of system that I have seen on other forums. It's kind of like Ebay feedback where folks get the chance to rate the other person after taking part in a "for sale" transaction.

At the very least it would keep people from scamming multiple folks.

Actually I kinda like this cause it would be applicable to both buyers and sellers. Remember that a buy can still scam someone just as easily as a seller can.

Ben

[jurgs01]

You guys are getting way too in-depth. If someone is scammed have them PM a mod. The seller has two weeks to resolve the situation. If the situation isn't resolved they are put on a master "do not buy from list." Also, anything sold on here should be required to at least get and give to the buyer a delivery confirmation # (USPS). It's like 55 cents to get that and it's proof that something has been shipped. UPS & Fedex automatically get tracking numbers. There is no reason why the buyer shouldn't have a number within a week of payment.

[jrodhotrod]

yup, I agree. Pre-approval lists and so on and so forth and making all these rules will get out of hand. We must remember that the majority of For Sale transactions are on the up and up and go off without a hitch. The scammers are in the minority.

The easiest and best thing the forum can do is:

Create a master do not buy from list
Set-up a feedback system (trader rating) similar to ebay where buyers and sellers can rate their experience
Advise forum members of wise practices when making online purchases
Encourage the use of tracking numbers

A lot of it is common sense. Low post count, approach with caution. I think most people here are aware of that.

[benimal]

You guys are getting way too in-depth. If someone is scammed have them PM a mod. The seller has two weeks to resolve the situation. If the situation isn't resolved they are put on a master "do not buy from list." Also, anything sold on here should be required to at least get and give to the buyer a delivery confirmation # (USPS). It's like 55 cents to get that and it's proof that something has been shipped. UPS & Fedex automatically get tracking numbers. There is no reason why the buyer shouldn't have a number within a week of payment.

Well not really - it's all in how you approach it. Do you take a proactive position and: educate, require mod intervention for first-time sellers, setup a master list of bad people? Or do you wait until someone has been scammed and admonish them cause they forgot to spend 55 cents on delivery confirmation?

Delivery confirmation & fedex tracking #s won't get you your money back if someone is trying to scam you. Spending the time to research a seller (like you would research a car) will help ensure that you are better off in the long run. Yes common sense may dictate not to buy from someone who has a low post count or been a member a short time. To paraphrase Ben Franklin, "Common sense is very uncommon."

I'm for the "proactive", preventetive approach: take the necessary steps to make buys and sellers feel more comfortable. Other people are just fine with the way things are now. Diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks...

Ben

[niv]

Hmmmmm.

The problem is that even with everything listed so far, nothing prevents that first person from getting scammed.

1. feedback: I've used the ebay system.... for the most part all it does is warn saavy people away from potential scammers, but if you ignore it, or something unfortunate happens, well.. you still need to take feedback with a grain of salt.
2. post count: means nothing. just that the person has posted a bunch of times. doesn't make more secure.
3. tracking numbers: are good as a tool to see where their package is.. but in the case of a money order that gets cashed and no tracking # appears. you are SOL.
4. Buyers guide post: is a great idea. Only downfall with this is that people ACTUALLY HAVE TO READ AND UNDERSTAND IT. (and matters not if they don't pay attention.
So are we trying to prevent scammers or repeat scammers?)

The only really effective way to stop scamming is either a neutral party receive both items, verify the item and cash, and then forward to respective parties. That way, no product or money exchanges till both have been confirmed. Great idea, but nowhere near practical.

Good security takes time, so what can you do to prevent/minimise potential scammers?

1. Could we have some sort of picture ID verification? Say, a driver's license that has to match the name and address of the person money is being sent to (along with photo of item) I have a feeling that people who scam are less likely to do so if their address is known and a place is established where a police report can be filed. Not to mention having their face plastered over the interporn....er web. If a neutral party were to have or hold onto info then people not displaying a "verified" sig, or some sort of identification should have their posts deleted or moved to locked unviewable thread until they are verified.

2. Could we have a sort of deposit system, where a seller has to place a deposit to a neutral party. True people could work in teams i guess.... but this is still quite troublesome for someone with 1 post who just wants to make a quick buck. (again not all that practical)

[2K3 MSP]

why dont we just get an approved seller list and only people on that list can post in the for sale area.. to get on the list, you would have to go through a moderator..
I think this is the easiest thing to do. I mean, in order for Vendors to sell things here, they need to be verified. Why not make others that want to sell things do the same thing(without the fee of course)? If they don't want to waste their time, fine. They can take their sale somewhere else.
Things from this thread I picked up that might help out:
1)The seller must be verified through Antoine/Enry(whoever takes care of the AV's and AMM's). Give enough info that they can be tracked down, and be held liable for scamming someone.
2)Implement a time frame of when certain actions can happen.
For example:
a)The seller should ship the said product out within 1 week of receiving payment, and
b)MUST provide a tracking number. This isn't that hard to do, and it will give the seller (and buyer) a close estimate of when a product should arrive. I always add insurance as well. That way me and the buyer are both covered in the event something goes wrong.
c) No complaints should be made public(ie: "I've been scammed!!) until at least one week after the expected arrival date, to give the benefit of the doubt that it was just running late. If the other rules are being followed, everything should go smooth and not even reach this level. If you have a tracking number in your hand in the given time(the 1 week), then you have no reason to blame the seller. Take it up with the shipping company.
3)I helped get the "rate your fellow members" list get set up, but it's pretty cluttered. Implementing a rating system like Jared mentioned under their avatars would help. Mods should be the only ones able to change it's +/- rating, pending that the guidelines were follwed during the transaction.
4)Like Antoine said, have a pic of the ACTUAL item uninstalled from the car(if applicable) in the first post. I got scammed buying some stuff that was still installed, only to get it realizing that it was worn out so bad it was unsafe to even put on my car. It should be shown with all things that will be shipped included.
a) A hand written note showing the date/mazda forums is a good idea too.
b) pics showing any damage(scratches/scuffs/dings/cracks) that the buyer would want to be aware of before paying for something. No surprises when the buyer opens the box. If there is damage that wasn't noted in the pics, then either take it up with the shipping company if it was their fault, or the seller gets a negative rating for their sale.

I know thats a lot to deal with, but ultimately, if we want to feel and be safe, then measures like this are not too much to ask for from our fellow members. Far to many of us have been scammed because we gave the seller the benefit of the doubt that they are as trustworthy as we are. Like it was mentioned before. If someone is looking for a quick sale, take it to another board.
As a buyer and seller on these boards, I would rather have to go through the type of things I just listed(which I already do perosnally) then risk being taken advantage of. It really isn't too much to ask unless the mods themselves(or even Antoine/Enry) don't want to do it. Afterall, they are the ones that'll be dealing with the application process for getting sellers and approved status.

[jurgs01]

I'm telling you that you guys are way overdoing this. From experience if you set up a complicated system with a lot to keep up on whoever is in charge is not going to keep up on it as much as a simple system. KISS. Simple rules, simple steps, effective results. Your ideas may look good in writing, but implementing these things will be the key.

[niv]

how complicated is getting a photo id picture sent? not very. but it will make those wanting to scam alot more shy about doing so.

You will never stop 100% of scams, but you can try to be efficient at preventing.
a do not buy list from is a great idea, the only downfall is that it doesn't prevent that first person who got scammed from that guy in the first place. Are you suggesting then that we just sit back and swallow it hoping that we aren't that first person?

[2K3 MSP]

You guys are getting way too in-depth. If someone is scammed have them PM a mod. The seller has two weeks to resolve the situation. If the situation isn't resolved they are put on a master "do not buy from list."
The problem is, we have no way to verify these people!! Who's to say they don't come back on here as another new member a week down the road and scam again?
I'm telling you that you guys are way overdoing this. From experience if you set up a complicated system with a lot to keep up on whoever is in charge is not going to keep up on it as much as a simple system. KISS. Simple rules, simple steps, effective results. Your ideas may look good in writing, but implementing these things will be the key.
Quite frankly, I don't want simple. "Simple" will get people ripped off. Simple makes easy for people to fly under the radar until it's too late.
If you feel this is too much, then fine. I for one have a hard time trusting sellers now because of all the scamming that's happened on here. If I can help prevent it from happening again, I'll do whatever I can to help.

[Shane5425]

i vote my way, its not hard to send your name, address and phone number to the moderator.. so if you are suspected as a scammer they can get in touch with you.. and know where you live..

[MSPguy]

i think the feedback thing is cool. unless you are proven guilty, you shouldnt be marked as something.

[Antoine]

To clear up something…The “Potential Scammer” title would only be applied by myself or a trusted Admin/SuperMod…this could be combined with a “name cleared” title as mentioned by LinuxRacr…along with some sort of updated list system…

The best methods are the ones that are most seem less…although in this case it’s proving to be quite difficult to settle on an effective, efficient and seem less method to prevent scams…

I’ve read this thread through and logged some ideas I like as well as good points made by some…

What about the Buyers ripping off sellers?

All Sellers and Buyers must post their real location (city and state) under their Avatar…

For Sale Mods assigned to verifying sellers and buyers via contact info…

Recommend all transactions go through paypal…

You must have a pic of the item for sale with proof it's in your possession (pic includes sign with date and or some other form of proof...ex: Mazda Forums 1/19/05)

Transaction rating system

And there is another possibility…but it would have to be really efficient on my part…and that is to establish an escrow system...I would act as a trusted third party and regulate all for sale transactions…I only ask a small fee for my time developing, maintaining and operating such a system...

(attn) * Last chance for feedback guys...I might close this thread soon and create a voting thread based on valid ideas...

[Jliao]

1. Could we have some sort of picture ID verification? Say, a driver's license that has to match the name and address of the person money is being sent to (along with photo of item) I have a feeling that people who scam are less likely to do so if their address is known and a place is established where a police report can be filed. Not to mention having their face plastered over the interporn....er web. If a neutral party were to have or hold onto info then people not displaying a "verified" sig, or some sort of identification should have their posts deleted or moved to locked unviewable thread until they are verified.


I Like this idea alot. Instead, have buyer and seller both have ID verification. You can blackout the actual driving licence #, but at least show the picture, name and address.

[benimal]

And there is another possibility…but it would have to be really efficient on my part…and that is to establish an escrow system...I would act as a trusted third party and regulate all for sale transactions…I only ask a small fee for my time developing, maintaining and operating such a system...

(attn) * Last chance for feedback guys...I might close this thread soon and create a voting thread based on valid ideas...

How do we know we can trust you to not rip us off? Just playing... just playing!!! Sorry but I couldn't help it given the sensitive nature of the subject....lol

Ben

[shinzen]

Lot's o' work enry- and if something gets fouled up in the proccess, you will be taking the blame for it- Escrow is a nice idea, but with the number of transactions you'll need to have some serious tracking software written or purchased- the trick I think is to push for personal responsibility- if you are buying from someone that is new to the boards, either in posts or time, then you are taking a risk- buyers should be saavy to this by now- as a buyer/seller, I have watched who I dealt with- and the vouching would be a great idea, but how are new people suppossed to start? By having a senior member vouch for them? On what basis? Not solving questions here but trying to ensure that we look at all angles.

E

[Antoine]

I Like this idea alot. Instead, have buyer and seller both have ID verification. You can blackout the actual driving licence #, but at least show the picture, name and address.

Could that easily be "photochopped"?

Lot's o' work enry

Checkout my username to the left...I'm Antoine ;)

Good point about the escrow software...I wonder how obtainable that is...I'll have to check it out...Can anyone estimate how many transactions happen in the For Sale forum on a weekly basis?

[shinzen]

Doh!! Looking at the wrong thread! (hand)


Checkout my username to the left...I'm Antoine ;)

Good point about the escrow software...I wonder how obtainable that is...I'll have to check it out...Can anyone estimate how many transactions happen in the For Sale forum on a weekly basis?

[SkinnyJoint]

Could that easily be "photochopped"?



Checkout my username to the left...I'm Antoine ;)

Good point about the escrow software...I wonder how obtainable that is...I'll have to check it out...Can anyone estimate how many transactions happen in the For Sale forum on a weekly basis?


i thank someone could photochop that no problem and second of all im in the military and i havent gotten my license changed i mean it is a florida but address is different im not going to go out of my way to do that or somthing. second - i think we could reference ebay as well, as in there feedback so u could check on the user. just some thought

[ghost]

CAPNSAVEM- Scammer, has gone to the pro-tuner boards and posted sale threads as if he was the owner of a buisness. After repededly deleting his threads and replies to posts I have sent him warnings to no avail. He is now Banned from our site and people need to watch out for him. He is one of the people that never got through when I was the for sale mod.

I have attempted to inform the members on a gb that almost went through. Guys please watch your back, this one could have been one of the bad ones.

Here is the thread...
http://www.msprotege.com/forum/showthread.php?t=95235&page=1&pp=15

[Focuz_Freek_XxX]

What if someone like me who only comes to this site to buy and or sell....but has a good reputation on another board such as focaljet.com. I only come here to browse the for sale section and there are a few parts i may want to sell and i may not want to post like 5000 times before i can sell something....i have well over 2000 posts at FJ.

J

[ghost]

What if someone like me who only comes to this site to buy and or sell....but has a good reputation on another board such as focaljet.com. I only come here to browse the for sale section and there are a few parts i may want to sell and i may not want to post like 5000 times before i can sell something....i have well over 2000 posts at FJ.

J

If we can crossreference you, and you are selling private parts, then I see no problem. But If I you just came here to sell, then you will have to prove you wont screw anyone over, pics of the product, links to posts on other sites, and you have to be verified on paypal.

[SkinnyJoint]

CAPNSAVEM- Scammer, has gone to the pro-tuner boards and posted sale threads as if he was the owner of a buisness. After repededly deleting his threads and replies to posts I have sent him warnings to no avail. He is now Banned from our site and people need to watch out for him. He is one of the people that never got through when I was the for sale mod.

I have attempted to inform the members on a gb that almost went through. Guys please watch your back, this one could have been one of the bad ones.

Here is the thread...
http://www.msprotege.com/forum/showthread.php?t=95235&page=1&pp=15

y do capnsavem and focus freek have the same avatar ?

[jurgs01]

y do capnsavem and focus freek have the same avatar ?

It's amazing how scammers can live with themselves. I would feel like shit not earning my way through life honestly. I think it's the parents. Shitty parents raise shitty kids.

[blizzard]

It's amazing how scammers can live with themselves. I would feel like shit not earning my way through life honestly. I think it's the parents. Shitty parents raise shitty kids.

Werd. You see it all the time these days. Even the partents don't think it's the kid's fault. My mum's a teacher, and if she sends a kid home, they'll come back later with their mum, and the mum will be like "what do you think you're doing sending my kid home... he's a saint." It's really bullshit society has come to this... [/rant]

[2K3 MSP]

y do capnsavem and focus freek have the same avatar ?
It is the EXACT SAME PIC. Right click on it, and check the URL in the properties.

[SkinnyJoint]

It is the EXACT SAME PIC. Right click on it, and check the URL in the properties.


ummm yea thats what i said lol is there an echo in this bitch heheh. j/p

[jonlong]

so focus freek is a scammer too?

[GHOSTWHISPER]

Great responses so far...but it seems clear that post or time limits are not reliable enough to use as a scammer deterrent...How about a few simple rules that must be followed to in order to conduct non-AV/AMM related sales...don't follow the rules...NO SALE!...I don't care how sweet the deal is (too sweet is often a rip anyway).

Rough Draft...

Non-Authorized Vendor / Approved Merchant Member For Sale Rules

You must have a pic of the item for sale with proof it's in your possession (pic includes sign with date and or some other form of proof...ex: Mazda Forums 1/19/05)

You must provide a phone # for potential buyers to contact you...

You must have at least 1 trusted Mazda Forums member vouch for you

All 3 rules can be required or even just the 1st two...We can't have a verification process that's too extensive or inefficient...it will be counter productive.

I think those rules could make a real difference BUT THEY MUST BE ENFORCED...no half ass moderating!

What do you guys think?
I think that is the best overall method. I think a member that has been here a year or over should be the only one(s) to qualify to vouch for the member that is selling. just my drop in the bucket. Maybe we can give it a trial run, for a couple months, and see if there are less scam threads up that span over that time period. (dunno)

[shaundarbie]

This is an idea that I already passed along to Antoine. I think a great step in the right direction is to educate the board members on how to protect themselves from fraud. A thorough, well-written guide to be pinned at the top of the FS forum would go a long way toward minimizing scams. Of course this might not deter the scammers themselves, but it's at least a start.

How should we go about this? Communicate via PM or a public forum with input from everyone...? Then compile it into one nice, neat post...

[shaundarbie]

Also, has anyone discussed the possiblity of changing "Reputation Points" to a more reliable seller feedback-type system (a-la-ebay)?

[GHOSTWHISPER]

This is an idea that I already passed along to Antoine. I think a great step in the right direction is to educate the board members on how to protect themselves from fraud. A thorough, well-written guide to be pinned at the top of the FS forum would go a long way toward minimizing scams. Of course this might not deter the scammers themselves, but it's at least a start.

How should we go about this? Communicate via PM or a public forum with input from everyone...? Then compile it into one nice, neat post...
Sounds great if you guys want to do it over IM, my msn and windows, is decrypt512@mail2nemesis.com(GHOSTWHISPER). But I think we should really discuss, all the different ideas, from trader rating, feedback rating, and Vouching. It could be like a point system under our post count or reputation. But we would have to setup strict guidlines, and tell the forum members that this is to benefit them, from getting scammed, so they cannot start a "Reputation Points" type thread were they all just start giving each other Vouch's or poitive trader ratings. I think we should all think about at least two ways to help this problem go away, devise restrictions, and full guidelines for each one. Then we should come together and pick 3 of which we all think are the best and then present them to Enry or Antoine, and see were it goes from there. Just throwing that out. If you do agree, what should are deadline be?

Thanks

[mp5racing21]

[

And that POS capnsavem tried to get me to buy that kit when I asked a simple question about bumpers on this forum. People like that you just want to strangle them, they piss me off. I hope the guy gets his due.

[jurgs01]

If you are going to start a seller and buyer's reputation the mods would have to control it.

[SkinnyJoint]

wow u guys are going to the sky is the limit shit if thats the case then tell them to just put the shit on ebay. if its going to be all complicated then wtf. ived bought 2 things off this bored so far and it went great, fast etc this sounds like it will drag out the process. dont get me wrong i want everyone to be safe and such but if were goign to do all this then y not ebay in the first place?

[Antoine]

We are merely throwing out ideas and discussing them...The final strategy will have to be practical and efficient (as I've stated before). The 3 main priorities are...

* Easy to implement (as seamless as possible)
* Effective (actually deters scammers)
* Enforceable (can be maintained & enforced with only a reasonable amount of effort)

We can come up with great ideas until the end of time but if they don't meet the above criteria than it's a NO GO!

[JDM Sam]

just buy COD to save yourself headaches.

[SkinnyJoint]

We are merely throwing out ideas and discussing them...The final strategy will have to be practical and efficient (as I've stated before). The 3 main priorities are...

* Easy to implement (as seamless as possible)
* Effective (actually deters scammers)
* Enforceable (can be maintained & enforced with only a reasonable amount of effort)

We can come up with great ideas until the end of time but if they don't meet the above criteria than it's a NO GO!

(mswerd)

[tekkie]

Wow there are lots of ideas on here, there is never going to be a fool proof system but all we can do is limit it as much as possible.

[shaundarbie]

wow u guys are going to the sky is the limit shit if thats the case then tell them to just put the shit on ebay. if its going to be all complicated then wtf. ived bought 2 things off this bored so far and it went great, fast etc this sounds like it will drag out the process. dont get me wrong i want everyone to be safe and such but if were goign to do all this then y not ebay in the first place?

Not complicated, just safer for buyers. ;) We'll come up with something workable for everyone...

[GHOSTWHISPER]

Oh yes we will, scammers beware. Oh the KnightWolf team will attack, we prevoked.

[p5power]

I think all these ideas a great...this will help the new guys -- like me -- from gettin screwed. It's hard to know who and who not to trust when you've only been hanging around here for a short time.

I think I've just finally come down to the conclusion that I HATE PEOPLE! why can't we all just get along?

[pluto316]

I think all these ideas a great...this will help the new guys -- like me -- from gettin screwed. It's hard to know who and who not to trust when you've only been hanging around here for a short time.

I think I've just finally come down to the conclusion that I HATE PEOPLE! why can't we all just get along?

Here's the thing about hating people; It's easy to like people till you ask them about their stance on politics and religion. Then it's easy to see a person's true inner-self once you see how they stand on those two topics. Most people are ignorant and racist. But hey, what are you going to do? (shrug)

[shaundarbie]

Ok, here's my summary of the ideas that have been discussed:

Summary of Ideas

Important Principles:

Selling on msprotege.com is privilege, not a right

Scammers will not be tolerated and will be pursued aggressively

While a forum cannot guarantee that someone is trustworthy, msprotege.com will try to reach this goal

EDUCATE!!!

My Favorites:

Trader Ratings

Either create new system or convert current reputation point system
Buyers educated to research those giving feedback
Scammer Info Archive

Lists all past scammers
Includes scam threads (for sellers to research by type of scam)
Catalog IP addresses of scammers
Potential Scammer title

Title applied to avatar (in red?) if no response to scam allegation
Applied after two weeks of no response
Must post real location under avatar

Both sellers and buyers
New users wait to post in FS forum

After 30 days of membership
Require Delivery Confirmation and/or tracking number on all sales

Only $0.55 for USPS!
Protects both parties
Buyer/Seller Education Guide

Encourage Paypal, getting references from seller, etc.
More details to come…
Good Ideas with Problems:

Require seller’s phone number

Too easy to change number, give wrong number, etc.
Require picture of actual item

Excellent, except for those sellers that don’t have digital cameras
But still very good idea…way to work around those that don’t have cameras?
Require 1 trusted user as voucher

How to decide if user is trusted?
Trusted user joins scam
Not everyone has an acquaintance on msprotege.com
What about new users?
(Each of these could be stressed and strongly suggested in the buying/selling guide)

Impractical Ideas:
Escrow System

Way too much work
ID verification

Too intrusive, privacy issues
Approved seller list

At this point it basically becomes AMM/Authorized Vendor status
Required post count

Plenty of examples of good vendors with low post counts
Use as a cautionary tool?
Just for Fun (actual posts by members!):

"[Scammers] should be kicked in the nuts, then be stripped of all his aftermarket parts and generously be given to [member]. Just my opinion, though."

"It’s amazing how scammers can live with themselves. I would feel like s**t not earning my way through life honestly. I think it’s the parents. S**tty parents raise s**tty kids."

[Antoine]

Awesome Shaun...did tekkie and ghostwhisper assist you with it?

I'm uber busy at the moment but we will move forward based on this summary...I'll check it out and post my final proposal soon...Thanks!

[shaundarbie]

Awesome Shaun...did tekkie and ghostwhisper assist you with it?

I'm uber busy at the moment but we will move forward based on this summary...I'll check it out and post my final proposal soon...Thanks!

What I did was print out the thread with members' ideas and made notes. Then I combined conversations with ghostwhisper and tekkie as to which ideas should be put into action first. We've all been pretty much on the same page.

One update is the 30-day rule for new users. Maybe we should drop this as a requirement, and maybe implement it later if needed, as tekkie suggested to me. We all figure it would be best to implement some ideas for now (i.e., the one's under "My Favorites") and maybe make adjustments as needed later on. Tekkie also showed me a nice rule sheet on another board that included rules about self-bumping and irrelevent posts that just muddy the FS threads.

Yeah, I've been crazy busy lately, too. I've got some annoying ignition problems on my 626 right now that I'm trying to sort out...

[tekkie]

Guess I should post them here :) As said already I just got them from another board, the toprotege.com site in fact. I will give props to them for doing this and I know it works well, why re-invent the wheel.

1) You must post a price for the item you are listing or trying to trade.

2) No auction style posts, list your price from the beginning and do not ask for people to up the price if someone offers you what yo uasked. If you want to place the item on ebay and then put the link here that is ok.

3) You cannot sell things that you do not currently have in your possession.

4) Do not bump your thread more than 2 times per 24 hrs.

5) Edit / bump your current thread, do not restart a new one unless the old one is real old, like more than 30 days.

6) No cross posting of the items into other forums.

7) If you are putting up a gauging interest thread you must still post a minimum amount that you expect to get.

8) You must post pics of items for sale.

As shaundarbie has already said I also think people with low post counts should at least have references from other websites that show they are honorable. Not everyone with low post counts are here to rip people off so I think its unfair to give them the cold hand right from the beginning.

We can get this all consolidated soon :)

[Antoine]

Final Summary Draft...

Important Principles:

Selling on Mazda Forums is privilege, not a right
Scammers will not be tolerated and will be pursued aggressively
While a forum cannot guarantee that someone is trustworthy, Mazda Forums will try it’s best to maintain trust amongst it’s members
EDUCATE!!! Be professional and courteous unless it's a scammer
Rules and Guidelines

Trader Ratings

Let’s give this a try! In addition to the current rep system

Scammer Info Archive

• Lists all past scammers
• Includes scam threads (for sellers to research by type of scam)
• Catalog IP addresses of scammers

Potential Scammer title

• Title applied to avatar (in red?) if no response to scam allegation
• Applied only by an Admin/Supermod when deemed necessary

Must post real location under avatar

• Both sellers and buyers

Required picture of actual item
*Don't have a digital camera? No Problem, you can buy a "disposable" one ;)

• You cannot sell things that you do not currently have in your possession
• A picture must be posted of the item including something that has “Mazda Forums” written on it (paper, cardboard, etc). “Mazda Forums” must be visible within the picture.

New users wait to post in FS forum

• Possibly required in the future…

Required Delivery Confirmation and/or tracking number on all sales

• Only $0.55 for USPS!
• Protects both parties

Buyer/Seller Education Guide

• Encourage Paypal, getting references from seller, etc.
• More details to come…

Actual posts by members!

"[Scammers] should be kicked in the nuts, then be stripped of all his aftermarket parts and generously be given to [member]. Just my opinion, though."

"It’s amazing how scammers can live with themselves. I would feel like s**t not earning my way through life honestly. I think it’s the parents. S**tty parents raise s**tty kids."

[Matthew]

i think that NEW users should not be able to post in the for sale section NOW. dont implement it LATER, do it now. at least 30 days or 100 posts whichever comes first.

[GHOSTWHISPER]

This is what we are going to go with right now , and try it out, we would love to please everyone, but this is a trial and error thing, and hopefully there wont be many errors, (ie scamming)

[benimal]

For those people that will complain that they don't have a digicam, you can now purchase "disposable" digicams at your local photo store. You no longer have an excuse...

Ben

Required picture of actual item

• You cannot sell things that you do not currently have in your possession
• A picture must be posted of the item including something that has “Mazda Forums” written on it (paper, cardboard, etc). “Mazda Forums” must be visible within the picture.

[Antoine]

For those people that will complain that they don't have a digicam, you can now purchase "disposable" digicams at your local photo store. You no longer have an excuse...

Ben

Awesome point!...updating summary!

[Jliao]

About the new user, I find it very bias (It's just my personal opinon). Basically, sometimes other car owner is really trying to sell his/her stuff that happen to fit on our car(i.e. rims). Though, due to the restriction of low post count & new users, he/she can't post on the sale section. As of result, he/she may just lost a huge chance to sell. I'm sure one of you guys have ran into this situation in the past or may in the future. In conclusion, sometimes not all new posters are scammer (maybe majority of them are), but some are here for real business. I, for one have been through this situation on ClubRSX (or one of big RSX forum). Luckly, the admin did not lock my post or ban me from the board, and within a week I found a buyer with my 3 posts counts. So, I "personally" don't think we should restrict new posters from posting in sales section.

Anyway, that's just my $0.02. I think providing actual product pictures are very helpful (maybe with sellers name edit onto the photo) way and somewhat convincing. This is what I did to get obtain buyer's trust with my low posts count.

Lastly, majority of us probably have an ebay account. I think listing your ebay review is also a great idea. For example "I have an ebay account named 'snowblack', I have 100% positive review with 6 or 7 buyers reviews. (One of them is the rim I sold on RSX forum)"

[SkinnyJoint]

About the new user, I find it very bias (It's just my personal opinon). Basically, sometimes other car owner is really trying to sell his/her stuff that happen to fit on our car(i.e. rims). Though, due to the restriction of low post count & new users, he/she can't post on the sale section. As of result, he/she may just lost a huge chance to sell. I'm sure one of you guys have ran into this situation in the past or may in the future. In conclusion, sometimes not all new posters are scammer (maybe majority of them are), but some are here for real business. I, for one have been through this situation on ClubRSX (or one of big RSX forum). Luckly, the admin did not lock my post or ban me from the board, and within a week I found a buyer with my 3 posts counts. So, I "personally" don't think we should restrict new posters from posting in sales section.

Anyway, that's just my $0.02. I think providing actual product pictures are very helpful (maybe with sellers name edit onto the photo) way and somewhat convincing. This is what I did to get obtain buyer's trust with my low posts count.

Lastly, majority of us probably have an ebay account. I think listing your ebay review is also a great idea. For example "I have an ebay account named 'snowblack', I have 100% positive review with 6 or 7 buyers reviews. (One of them is the rim I sold on RSX forum)"

great point. yes i have ebay and i think mine is like 95 or somthing only cause some ppl cant read the god damn for sale shit but yea only one negaitve with like 15 positives

[wannabe]

Lastly, majority of us probably have an ebay account. I think listing your ebay review is also a great idea. For example "I have an ebay account named 'snowblack', I have 100% positive review with 6 or 7 buyers reviews. (One of them is the rim I sold on RSX forum)"

If someone is looking to sell something on this board, more than likely they HAVE setup an eBay/amazon or other such auction site. Maybe make that an early poster option? post your eBay or other online store screen name so your credibility can be checked.


Good Ideas with Problems:

Require seller’s phone number

Too easy to change number, give wrong number, etc.


call them. i had another board do that. its still not fool-proof, but at least their is another way to contact them...

[Brian MP5T]

The idea of "Trader Rep" Is a great one. Approved Merchants should have a box on each post that can be used for a diferent type of rep. Blue Boxes in addition to the gree boxes...

[enry]

I think having actual, up-to-date pictures as suggested by Antoine will resolve many problems. This is a reasonable requirement in any situation. I don't want people selling imaginary products they have never seen.
As for trader rep, if we can't ensure that trade rep points given (+ or -) are legitimate, then it will be of no use. Ebay, for example, ensures that rep is only given between buyer and seller.
Therefore, enforcing such rules would me programming a whole new vb hack to handle sales, trades, and gb's. If we're lucky, such hack exists on vbulletin.org. What do you guys think?

[wannabe]

yeah, just thinking about the trader rep idea, that could get ugly (like the rep points) unless there is a way to keep it between the buyer and seller. good luck finding something...

[Matthew]

what about this guy mrpopnfresh? this guy is stiffing someone hardcore in the CA section. he needs to be banned asap.

[Antoine]

Here it is for now...

Final Summary...

Important Principles:

Selling on Mazda Forums is privilege, not a right
Scammers will not be tolerated and will be pursued aggressively
While a forum cannot guarantee that someone is trustworthy, Mazda Forums will try it’s best to maintain trust amongst it’s members
EDUCATE!!! Be professional and courteous unless it's a scammer
Rules and Guidelines

Trader Ratings

* Pending..Need a system that can ensure ratings are only given between buyers and sellers

Scammer Info Archive

• Lists all past scammers
• Includes scam threads (for sellers to research by type of scam)
• Catalog IP addresses of scammers

Potential Scammer title

• Title applied to avatar area if no response to scam allegation is received
• Applied only by an Admin/Supermod when deemed necessary or by deadline

Must post real location under avatar

• Required by both sellers and buyers

Required picture of actual item
*Don't have a digital camera? No Problem, you can buy a "disposable" one ;)

• You cannot sell things that you do not currently have in your possession
• A picture must be posted of the item including something that has “Mazda Forums” written on it (paper, cardboard, etc). “Mazda Forums” must be visible within the picture.

New users wait to post in FS forum

• Possibly required in the future…

Required Delivery Confirmation and/or tracking number on all sales

• Only $0.55 for USPS!
• Protects both parties

Buyer/Seller Education Guide

• Encourage Paypal, getting references from seller, etc.
• Include your ebaY review status and or feedback

Actual posts by members!

"[Scammers] should be kicked in the nuts, then be stripped of all his aftermarket parts and generously be given to [member]. Just my opinion, though."

"It’s amazing how scammers can live with themselves. I would feel like s**t not earning my way through life honestly. I think it’s the parents. S**tty parents raise s**tty kids."

[Mr. Win]

well thought... i think it will work well. If strictly enforced it could work out great.

I think new members should have to obtain a center post count. When ever i check out a new seller and if his post are generally BS posts just to build i wouldnt buy from him. IE:http://www.msprotege.com/forum/member.php?u=14216 acutally personally PMd said i knew what they were attempting and the person deleted posts and wasnt heard from again. I made a mod aware as well.

[LapisBlueProteg]

what about this guy mrpopnfresh? this guy is stiffing someone hardcore in the CA section. he needs to be banned asap.

damn matt cant u just lay off of this already! banning him wont solve the prob!

[akhilleus]

Although this may be counterproductive, but maybe you should require that all sellers list their items on ebay and only allow buying through there, unless a GB. Otherwise there will always be shadiness.

[Matthew]

what is the purpose of "mazda forums" being visible in the photos? im confused.

[wannabe]

what is the purpose of "mazda forums" being visible in the photos? im confused.

so that we know the pic isn't stolen from another site, so we know the seller actually *has* the item...

[Matthew]

ok makes sense

[mrpopnfresh]

oOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOo Look at me!! I'm a potential Fucking Scammer!! Yes!!!

[Matthew]

bout time, why dont you ship that guy his seats. dont even try to make up bullshit excuses on how it took you months. just do it.

[uclap5]

thats mature ricky. come on now, just deal with it. the guy wants his seats, and you have to admit you have taken way to long to get them to him. i've been at the recieving end of a shitty seller and it sucks ass.

[Matthew]

well said.

[GHOSTWHISPER]

Hey man once billy gets his seats we wil take off the title. Obiviously your not like other dead beat sellers that would just leave but, he really needs to get those seats, he has been waiting very patiently. Thanks a lot man.

[Gbourdon]

oOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOo Look at me!! I'm a potential Fucking Scammer!! Yes!!!

(monkey2)

[bonesmp5]

itll come off once our deal is done (drinks) oOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOo Look at me!! I'm a potential Fucking Scammer!! Yes!!!

[Antoine]

Interesting...now mrpopnfresh suddenly starts posting again ;)

I'll be more than glad to remove the title as fast I added it...once the deal is complete.

[Brian MP5T]

I can't blame him. I would shit if I saw that on my AVATAR...

Welcome Back POP!

[LapisBlueProteg]

pop is in military so times are hard for yall to know!
i know matt should UNDERSTAND THIS but us mocc's dont need to get flamed like we did, we were just trying to help this matter!
if pop wants he can bring them to me in mo val when he has time and ill ship them for him!

[GHOSTWHISPER]

Even though this has taken a very long time, i think it is great that this is finally getting resolved. So everyone in the MOCC help him get those things shipped out, so i can stop seeing the "anyone know mr.popnfresh" thread keep on popping in my usercp.

[bonesmp5]

lol --

[Matthew]

pop is in military so times are hard for yall to know!
i know matt should UNDERSTAND THIS but us mocc's dont need to get flamed like we did, we were just trying to help this matter!
if pop wants he can bring them to me in mo val when he has time and ill ship them for him!

whatever, he is statesside so not that hard. not hard enough you cant ship a fucking pair of seats in over two months. hell, beau from mental addiction is active duty navy in san diego and commutes each week back to arizona to his shop. he manages to not only ship but make products every week. so thats bullshit.